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Old June 19, 2009, 10:15 AM   #26
OldMarksman
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Bababooey, if the crime was committed moare than thirty minutes after sundown, you are correct, Code Section 9.42 would apply.

(Note to non-Texans: don't try this at home.)

However, you overlooked a key provision of the Texas Castle Law:

Quote:
Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:

(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and

(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or

(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

(b) The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or

(C) was committing or attempting to commit an offense described by Subsection (a)(2)(B);

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and

(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.

(c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used is not required to retreat before using deadly force as described by this section.

(d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(2), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (c) reasonably believed that the use of deadly force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.
In Bill's hypothetical scenario, the "actor" was not in the automobile at the time.
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Old June 19, 2009, 10:19 AM   #27
KingEdward
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I've thought of this one a few times.

had to pull my weapon one night at end of drive just after rolling trash to street. it was the biggest possum ever and it shot out towards me from under the back of the car. He hissed and turned tail and I put the gun away.

If this scenario (brash car thief) happened on my property, I would probably do the following...

a) have wife call 911 and say someone is on the property destroying our vehicle

b) if time / situation permits I would go inside and retrieve 20 gauge pump

c) at a safe distance between the perp and my back door (in my case about
1/2 way down the side walk toward the gate), I would pump the mossberg
and simply level it at the perp.

My choice at this point is keep my gun leveled from a distance while being close enough to the back door to retreat if necessary.

That's my choice.

His choices are many and I cannot control. He could hear the pumping action and tell me to play with myself. He could hear it and wonder if the next sound was going to be the blast noise a shotgun makes. He could get up, come towards me and draw. He could gather his tools and vamoose off my property.

It doesn't matter to me. I'm on defense and I will not shoot him for car damage. Now if he charges me then all bets are off.

If the cops show up while he is knee deep in my car and I am 60 feet away with my shotgun, then my wife has identified me and my position.

The law will sort it out from there.
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Old June 19, 2009, 10:40 AM   #28
Donn_N
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Quote:
Why did I bother to buy a gun in the first place, take a CCW class and diligently practice so that I can place 2 COM shots + 1 to the head if not to protect my life AND property and that of my loved ones?
I don't know, but do the laws of your state allow you shoot someone to protect your property? If you don't know, you might want to check into it.
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Old June 19, 2009, 10:44 AM   #29
OldMarksman
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Quote:
OK, so I walk outside with my weapon and see this fine upstanding young citizen helping himself to my car's sound system. According to the OP's scenario, the "victim" (and he is a victim because his mother is a raging alcoholic and his father beats him on a regular basis) is aware that I am armed but yet refuses to comply with my politically correct request to cease and desist. At this point, I think it is fair to assume that the only reason someone would refuse to comply with the request of someone pointing a (presumably) loaded weapon at them would be because they either a)have a death wish or b)can stop me from using my weapon before I get the opportunity to use it on him in which case I AM BEING THREATENED.
Scott, you evidently have not read the link I posted. It also appears that you didn't pay attention during your Missouri CCW class. You cannot point a gun at anyone (when you are outside of your domicile or automobile) unless you or a third person are in imminent danger of death, serious physical injury, or any forcible felony (felony involving the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual).

And the only "requests" that you can lawfully enforce with a threat of deadly force, or with deadly force itself, are (1) that a perp not enter your occupied dwelling or automobile or (2) if he reasonably presents an imminent danger, that he stop advancing toward you or a third person.

The remedies (against you) are both criminal and civil.

Quote:
Why did I bother to buy a gun in the first place, take a CCW class and diligently practice so that I can place 2 COM shots + 1 to the head if not to protect my life AND property and that of my loved ones?
If you bought your gun to protect your property in Missouri, you might have gone to Casablanca for the waters ("Casablanca is in the desert." "I was misled.")

Quote:
I absolutely refuse to stand by and take pictures of some low life scum bag breaking into my car and hope that the police might eventually catch the guy and put him in jail for 90 days just so he can come back and do it again!
I suppose you could go out unarmed and try a full nelson, but I'd rather submit a claim. Safer.
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Old June 19, 2009, 11:12 AM   #30
Mr. James
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Quote:
pee on him.
Figuratively, or literally?

This would probably work - could you sit still while a man micturated all over you? Thought not!
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Old June 19, 2009, 12:02 PM   #31
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Quote:
I don't think you can shoot the guy with the gun, so what about shooting him with a camera?
That's not a bad idea, if you're sure he won't then try to attack you.

(JOKING)

You could also call some big, tough friends to come and forcibly evict him from the vehicle, preferably in a manner painful and undignified to him. You could point a stereo at him and play the kind of music he likes least. (I recommend classical, Gregorian chant, or Muzak if you have it.)

I also might consider asking the hellfire-and-brimstone preacher at a good local Bible-believing church to come preach to the guy, or simply put on that persona and do it myself, but I don't know if you'd want to. (EVIL grin)

(/JOKING)

What you do *not* do unless he has a weapon and is threatening you is shoot him or threaten to shoot him. The life of any human being, even one that's behaving more like a cockroach than a man, is worth more than a piece of property. I'd say this regardless of whether the law would let you get away with shooting him or not; this is a moral issue, not a legal issue.
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Old June 19, 2009, 12:12 PM   #32
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksMan
You cannot point a gun at anyone (when you are outside of your domicile or automobile) unless you or a third person are in imminent danger of death, serious physical injury, or any forcible felony (felony involving the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual).
That's not always true. There are places that allow for the threat of escalating force, including the presentation of a gun, even when the actual use of the gun would not yet be justified.


It would be perfectly justifiable to use a considerable level of non-deadly force to stop this guy, in most places. Slamming the door on his leg would be a possible starting place. Personally, I'd probably start with a camera. I'd possibly follow him when he left. All "possible" I say because it would depend on an analysis of the unfolding situation and surroundings.

Heck, I might even call my neighbors and say "Hey, come out here and give me a hand with this guy." In NY state, preventing a trespasser from leaving your property by use of force is legal.
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Old June 19, 2009, 12:53 PM   #33
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Tie a rope (or better a zip tie) around his legs while he is working.
I have some of those 12 to 18 inch zip ties in my garage.
Now that he is immobilized, I could drag him out by his tied together legs.

Then pee on him.
HAHA +1 WildAlaska
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Old June 19, 2009, 01:30 PM   #34
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Holster the gun & bust out the camera (w/ flash), or better yet, the high-capacity assault filming device, err, I mean the camcorder.

If he's not an immediate threat to you, or your family, and you assault him (and I would dearly love to slam the door on his leg), you will probably end up getting sued, losing your home instead of your radio - welcome to America.
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Old June 19, 2009, 01:39 PM   #35
OldMarksman
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Quote:
It would be perfectly justifiable to use a considerable level of non-deadly force to stop this guy, in most places.
Yes indeed.

My comment about not pointing a gun pertained to Missouri, where scottashulz lives. It applies in a lot of places, including Arizona, to name one.

One can use reasonable physical force to protect property in Missouri, but there's no protection against civil liability when you do that.

Quote:
In NY state, preventing a trespasser from leaving your property by use of force is legal.
Interesting. In most places you cannot prevent a trespasser from leaving, the reason being that such an act defeats the purpose of the law against trespassing.
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Old June 19, 2009, 01:40 PM   #36
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OldMarksman, I know you are only trying to help and I really appreciate the fact that you are citing examples of Missouri law, but I think it all comes down to one's perception of what constitutes being threatened.

Yes, I know what the law says, but I gotta tell ya, if I see someone on my property that does not belong there doing something they are not supposed to do, I have a real problem with standing by watching them violate my rights and hoping that justice might eventually one day be served.

Scott
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Old June 19, 2009, 01:49 PM   #37
Glenn E. Meyer
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The reason for learning the laws and training is so that you can overcome that tendency to have a 'real problem'. If you think the best outcome is emotionally satisifying as compared to having the best rational outcome and consequences, don't complain if you do get into legal trouble.

One can have a real problem with lots of things - doesn't mean you can shoot 'em up.
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Old June 19, 2009, 01:56 PM   #38
ezenbrowntown
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I believe my game plan would be to stay put, with the gun still aimed at the guy. To be at my car, he's in the garage of my house, so his only way out would be through me. I'd verbalize any movement in my direction will be considered a threat and I will shoot. The guy either stays in the car until the cops show up or tries to come through me to escape, and I shoot.
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Old June 19, 2009, 02:00 PM   #39
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Interesting. In most places you cannot prevent a trespasser from leaving, the reason being that such an act defeats the purpose of the law against trespassing.
See? NY's not as backasswards as some people think it is... always.

35.20
2. A person in possession or control of any premises, or a person
licensed or privileged to be thereon or therein, may use physical force
upon another person when he or she reasonably believes such to be
necessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes to
be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a
criminal trespass upon such premises. Such person may use any degree of
physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he or she
reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and may use deadly
physical force in order to prevent or terminate the commission or
attempted commission of arson, as prescribed in subdivision one, or in
the course of a burglary or attempted burglary, as prescribed in
subdivision three.

This person clearly falls under the "criminal trespass" definition which is different, at least in NY, than simply "trespass".
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Old June 19, 2009, 02:02 PM   #40
wickedrider
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In my jurisdiction, you can never take a life in the defense of property. You may defend life only.

I don't know if suburban means that you there aren't any neighbors. However, if there are after calling the police, have your wife call the neighbors to see whether she can enlist them in keeping track of the culprit. Take your phone and stay within a safe distance if possible and stay on the phone with 911 and try to give them as much info as possible. If at all possible follow culprit whether on foot or in a vehicle, if you can do it safely. Also, the idea of a camera or camcorder is excellent if you can do that.
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Old June 19, 2009, 02:34 PM   #41
Donn_N
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Quote:
I believe my game plan would be to stay put, with the gun still aimed at the guy. To be at my car, he's in the garage of my house, so his only way out would be through me. I'd verbalize any movement in my direction will be considered a threat and I will shoot. The guy either stays in the car until the cops show up or tries to come through me to escape, and I shoot.
Another poster willing to kill to protect property. Amazing and a more than a little scary.
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Old June 19, 2009, 02:39 PM   #42
Bailey Boat
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I can't speak to other states since I live in NC but breaking into someone's car and stealing stuff will get you a free can of whoop ass opened and served. I'm lucky that my vehicles are garage kept so the chance is unlikely but in the event it did occur I would have to serve up said can of WA. I'm late 50's and ain't as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was....... I've worked too damned hard for what little I have and if you're going to take it then you're going to have to work for it.......just like I did....
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Old June 19, 2009, 02:50 PM   #43
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In my case, I would turn my 4 dogs on him. After they got thru with him.....

Why complicate things? I would never shoot someone over a car radio, that is why I have insurance.
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Old June 19, 2009, 03:05 PM   #44
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I vote for dumping a can of pepper spray on him. It may take a while to get the car to a point where you can drive it and not have your eyes water but it would probably make it hard for they guy to finish yanking your stereo. We'd see how things develop after the application of the liquid fire to determine if we take things to the next level. Once you spray the guy, things may escalate quickly so I'd have a firearm in hand and the cops in route.

I'm also partial to the baseball bat accross the shins
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Old June 19, 2009, 03:54 PM   #45
Dwight55
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Since I don't conveniently have pepper spray in my house, . . . that option would not be available.

But I do have ammonia, . . . and I have clorox bleach. I have several cans of aerosol brake cleaner, . . .

I think I could entice him into getting the heck out of my vehicle.

And after all, . . . it is my vehicle, . . . I am entitled to clean it, . . . too bad he was laying where I was cleaning.

May God bless,
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Old June 19, 2009, 03:59 PM   #46
OldMarksman
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Quote:
Another poster willing to kill to protect property. Amazing and a more than a little scary.
Yes it is. Even more amazing to me is that they would commit to virtual paper a statement that they would commit what would almost certainly be judged to constitute a crime in almost all states.

Nothing like handing the prosecutor a damaging piece of incriminating evidence to make his score higher.
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Old June 19, 2009, 04:01 PM   #47
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Quote:
In my case, I would turn my 4 dogs on him. After they got thru with him.....

Why complicate things? I would never shoot someone over a car radio, that is why I have insurance.
I know you're kidding but for those who might take the comment seriously, use of a pack of dogs (especially the type that can "get thru" with someone) can and most likely will constitute deadly force. There've been successful prosectutions on the principle of a dog as a lethal instrument, no different than a pistol or blade.
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Old June 19, 2009, 04:06 PM   #48
hogdogs
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Kick the door on Carl's leg! Jerk door open, grab Carl's leg and drag him out... pummel him about the head and face until compliance is garnered...
Stand on throat until the cops arrive
Brent
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Old June 19, 2009, 04:07 PM   #49
OldMarksman
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I thought this post by David Armstrong on 05 June on another thread said it very well:

Quote:
Rather silly to use deadly force to protect your property, for example, if you are going to lose all your property because you used deadly force.
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Old June 19, 2009, 04:56 PM   #50
TEDDY
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thief

thats why there are so many thieves,people to cowered to take any action.
but I think you will find attitudes are changing.
now I wonder what would happen to the smart ass if you fired one next to his ear.
in my county there are 4 deputies for the entire county.the sheriff sort of figures you have to take care of your self.and the AG backs deadly force.
I think most of you should get rid of your guns and just let people help themselves.it would be better for the perp and you would not have to confront them.
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