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Old June 17, 2009, 12:31 AM   #1
cloud8a
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If all else fails and you have to fire, does the size of the BG matter?

If all else fails and you have to fire, does the size of the BG matter?

For instance a 300 pound 6'5 bad guy and your CCW .380. (just an example)

Last edited by cloud8a; June 17, 2009 at 12:41 AM.
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Old June 17, 2009, 12:55 AM   #2
MosesMosley
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shot placement.......
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Old June 17, 2009, 01:00 AM   #3
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well, yes shot placement. but lets say you aren't a perfect shot every time. The 300 pound guy has much more muscle than me, a 150 pound guy to absorb those .380 bullets. I would argue that because I have less mass for the bullet to dig through, I would be more hurt by each shot compared to the 300 pound guy.
So, yes the size of the BG does matter. It sure will legally anyway. if I am 150 and the guy I shot is 300, im pretty sure I will walk if it was real self defense without provocation
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Old June 17, 2009, 01:03 AM   #4
cloud8a
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the BG has a gun
the BG has a knife
the BG is charging you from 20 feet, he is huge, should SD training always incorporate a head shot.

I am thinking of bear stories gone bad. Not that big BG's equal big bears but you could replace wildness with 'on drugs'.
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Old June 17, 2009, 01:04 AM   #5
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There is no "magic formula" for selecting what size of round to use on a specific size of person. If you have to shoot, shoot what you have and make it count!

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Old June 17, 2009, 01:08 AM   #6
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totally, no one is 100% accurate. But the bigger the guy, the bigger the target is. If hitting a "300lbs+" in the chest is too hard, then carrying a gun probably isn't too good of a idea. I am far from a great shot, but with a big target + close range(would have to be in order to be SD) isn't hard. Of course SD situations are different then target practice but it still applies. If worried too much about it, carry a spare mag or 2.
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Old June 17, 2009, 01:11 AM   #7
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well, yes shot placement. but lets say you aren't a perfect shot every time. The 300 pound guy has much more muscle than me, a 150 pound guy to absorb those .380 bullets. I would argue that because I have less mass for the bullet to dig through, I would be more hurt by each shot compared to the 300 pound guy.
So, yes the size of the BG does matter. It sure will legally anyway. if I am 150 and the guy I shot is 300, im pretty sure I will walk if it was real self defense without provocation
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Old June 17, 2009, 01:24 AM   #8
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if you think you can judge a mindset from one post then work on yours. I keep out of trouble just fine. the point of what I was saying is that people of different sizes are affected by bullets in different degrees, IE how bad it disrupts their body's normal function. the last part was also true, its called disproportion of power
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Old June 17, 2009, 01:24 AM   #9
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A spare mag might not do in close quarters. does a head shot need to be incorporated in SD training? Are small caliber guns not a good idea for CCW?

I read an article a long time ago, and I would love to cite it here but can't, that after the 1st 2 rounds to center mass any other center mass shots would have little immediate shocking effect to a BG. The idea of the article was the importance of making the 3rd shot a head shot.

I do not practice enough to have confidence in BANG BANG chest BANG head.

So should one consider large high power guns?
what if you do and go with a .44 mag and fire on a 17 year old 130 pound kid or a 115 pound 22 year old because you were prepping for the 300 pound BG?

my point being you can be in a life or death SD situation with any size human, and if size matters, then what do you choose for CCW?

Last edited by cloud8a; June 17, 2009 at 01:38 AM. Reason: Clarity
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Old June 17, 2009, 01:29 AM   #10
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what if you do and go with a .44 mag and fire on a 17 year old 130 pound kid because you were prepping for the 300 pound BG?

I fail to see why size of BG v. caliber is an issue at all. Carry the largest caliber you are comfortable with and can legally CC. It does not legally matter if you are in fear of your life enough to draw a .380 on Hulk Hogan on steroids coming at you with a machete or a .50 DE on vern troyer attacking your shins with a box cutter. Both can be deadly force situations. Deadly force can be used in both instances...

Quote:
I do not practice enough to have confidence in BANG BANG chest BANG head.
Respectfully, if you do not practice enough to be confident in a COM shot, you probably would be better served not to carry. Everyone gets the shakes when they shoot, I have been told by a few I have been fortunate so far, but you have to learn to control your shot. If you are not practicing enough to feel capable of doing so, please do not carry. Not only for the safety of those around you, but for your own legal sake...


RE: the head shot. When I took my commission class, I earned the nickname of "Dead Baby." I told my SGT that I was going to put every round that I sent down range into the head of the silhouette. I missed 1 and it went right over the shoulder of the "person." SGT said "Well, he missed the bad guy, so now we got a f-in dead baby on our hands." Referring to the fact that the errant round could have hit a child. A macabre display and discussion followed, but it certainly taught me the value of not looking for a headshot.
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Old June 17, 2009, 01:33 AM   #11
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You would argue that the different calibers do affect different sizes of people in different ways. Like you just said, a small guy might be affected more by the 45 than the big guy. It would be physics that proves this. The bullet is constant, but the mass it is entering is what is varied. Like a car crashing into a parked one. The heavier car will be pushed less because it has more weight/mass
EDIT- so how far away of a COM shot would you argue you need to be in order for you to feel that a person is ready to carry?
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Old June 17, 2009, 01:44 AM   #12
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Kyo, the failing of the car argument is that vehicles do not go into shock. I am 6'2" and 270#. I was shot in the shoulder with a .25 and I got sick to my stomach. You could shoot some behemoth with a .22LR and he could flip out simply from being in shock.

This whole issue seems to be a non-issue to me. I don't wake up and think "I might be in an area with a bunch of abnormally sized men, I should pack something bigger than my .22." I just always grab the .357Mag. It is the weapon that I am most capable and comfortable with.

Also, I do not understand your questions about COM. All I can say without clarification of the question is these two things: If someone is not confident in their shooting ability, they obviously should not be carrying AND some states, like my home state of TX, have a "maximum range" for SD shots. I want to say it is about 20-odd feet. There is a reason CHL classes teach and practice shots at the distances they do...
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Old June 17, 2009, 01:50 AM   #13
cloud8a
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Doug083

I would not say that only a person expert in head shots should be the only ones who can CCW.

Everyone is responsible for what is behind the target. That being said you have a hydra headed deal here, caliber, SD training for head shots, and confidence in head shots VS. caliber.
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Old June 17, 2009, 01:51 AM   #14
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yea, but you said you got sick to your stomach. that can be both physical and mental. a smaller person might have thrown up, or went unconscious. thing is, we don't know if it was mental or physical that did it. how can we tell?
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Old June 17, 2009, 01:53 AM   #15
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I would not say that only a person expert in head shots should be the only ones who can CCW.
This is exactly what I said. Read the little story I posted for Kyo. That story is a perfect example of my lack of confidence in my own ability to make headshots. I missed 1 out of 50 and will not try for one in an active shooter scenario because of that. I do not want to miss a critical shot and harm an innocent person. However, expertise is not the issue. Confidence is. You said you do not practice enough to be confident in a Mozambique shot. So...we have two problems here: a lack of confidence and a lack of practice. You know what they say "perfect practice makes perfect."

Quote:
Everyone is responsible for what is behind the target. That being said you have a hydra headed deal here, caliber, SD training for head shots, and confidence in head shots VS. caliber.
You mis-read, cloud, I specifically said
Quote:
Respectfully, if you do not practice enough to be confident in a COM shot, you probably would be better served not to carry
I am referring to your admission that
Quote:
I do not practice enough to have confidence in BANG BANG chest

kyo

Quote:
yea, but you said you got sick to your stomach. that can be both physical and mental. a smaller person might have thrown up, or went unconscious. thing is, we don't know if it was mental or physical that did it. how can we tell?

Sorry for mentioning that as it seemed to distract from the point, which is two-fold: You cannot know ahead of time what size BG you may be forced to shoot and it is impractical to pack enough weapons in enough different calibers to cover all your bases AND practice=confidence. If you do not have confidence in your shooting ability, you owe the public the favor of not carrying...I am 100% confident in the fact that I will hit what I shoot. I practice monthly. If I miss an unacceptable amount of shots while at the range (determined by the weapon being fired) I buy another box of shells and shoot until I am satisfied. I know this may sound extreme, but I carry a weapon for work and have to be dang sure that I only hit what I need to.

I am sorry if I was unclear, guys. I am trying to figure out the mentality behind the OP and providing a little insight as I can...
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Old June 17, 2009, 02:10 AM   #16
cloud8a
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I understand Doug what you are saying. But confidence only goes so far. Of course practice, practice, practice. But there are too many variables to say only those who practice as much as you do should be the only ones who CCW.

I can say that all the commission classes and refresher courses I have taken none ever focused on head shots. That never caused my renewal to be revoked in Texas.

I do not disagree with you on the importance of honing your skills, but I do think there is a point were one could be too confident.
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Old June 17, 2009, 02:13 AM   #17
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But confidence only goes so far.
IME practice breeds skill which breeds confidence.


Quote:
Of course practice, practice, practice. But there are too many variables to say only those who practice as much as you do should be the only ones who CCW.
I don't think people who practice as I do should be the only ones who CC, I even say that my methods may be a bit extreme. I just think that someone who proclaims a lack of confidence shouldn't CC. Would you feel comfortable if you overheard a LEO saying that he/she did not know if they could make a critical shot if the SHTF? I wouldn't...

Quote:
I can say that all the commission classes and refresher courses I have taken none ever focused on head shots.
Neither did mine. That was what I said. My SGT and I made a bet of sorts that I could not put all the shots down range into the head of the silhouette. He was right and proved a very good point and certainly hammered a message home for me.

Quote:
That never caused my renewal to be revoked in Texas.
I don't understand the bearing of this statement, please explain.

Quote:
I do not disagree with you on the importance of honing your skills, but I do think there is a point were one could be too confident.
This is where we must agree to disagree. I am very confident in my shooting abilities. I don't want that moment to come (God Forbid it anyway) and I hesitate because I have not practiced enough to know I can make the shot count. Like I have said in other threads, I carry a weapon for work, so my shooting ability is as much a necessity as extra ammo.


You keep missing my point. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT HEAD SHOTS! I refuse to try them because of my training class experience. I have now said it 3 or 4 times. A head shot is not realistic in an SD scenario and, therefore, a non-issue...that was my point. You said you lacked the confidence to make even the COM shots. That is why I said that if you don't practice enough to feel confident you shouldn't carry...Mind you, this is my personal opinion. The moment that I do not feel that I am a competent shooter, I will put my weapons away...
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Old June 17, 2009, 02:35 AM   #18
cloud8a
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O.K. I think I get you now.

What was meant by the revoked in Texas thing was they never made us practice head shots. Center mass proficiency is what got us our renewal in Texas.

What I meant by BANG BANG chest BANG head, was only the BANG head part. I felt that BANG BANG BANG chest was where I was confident. I was not so sure about 3rd shot being head, MY best bet.

That is what caused this thread I guess if training calls for the 3rd shot to be head and you do not want to risk that are there other options besides putting everything into center mass.

And all of that is anchored in the idea of training the 3rd shot to be a head shot at all.
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Old June 17, 2009, 02:42 AM   #19
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Ahh...gotcha now...I never would advise a head shot. Not with a handgun...with a long gun, at a distance, with a clear shot, etc...maybe...
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Old June 17, 2009, 03:13 AM   #20
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The 300 pound guy has much more muscle than me, a 150 pound guy to absorb those .380 bullets. I would argue that because I have less mass for the bullet to dig through, I would be more hurt by each shot compared to the 300 pound guy.
So, yes the size of the BG does matter.
The amount of tissue destroyed by a handgun bullet is miniscule in comparison to the bodyweight of even a small adult. Around a tenth of a percent of the total bodyweight.

Assuming that the bullet destroys about 2.5 oz of tissue then in a 300lb person the tissue destroyed by a handgun bullet might be 0.05% while for a 150lb person the tissue destroyed might be 0.1%.

What it comes down to is that if it's not the right miniscule amount of tissue destroyed then nothing's going to happen unless the person decides to give up/leave. Doesn't matter how big or how little they are.

It does have a lot to do with pain tolerance or determination, neither of which has anything to do with size.
Quote:
...some states, like my home state of TX, have a "maximum range" for SD shots. I want to say it is about 20-odd feet.
I'm sorry, but there is absolutely nothing in TX law that suggests anything like this. I don't know where you got that information, but the best I can say is that someone was being extremely "creative".
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Old June 17, 2009, 03:35 AM   #21
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I'm sorry, but there is absolutely nothing in TX law that suggests anything like this. I don't know where you got that information, but the best I can say is that someone was being extremely "creative".

There may not be, John, there are, however, many instructors who will tell you that you will be damn hard-pressed to prove that you felt that your life was threatened by someone over roughly 21 feet away...
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Old June 17, 2009, 03:56 AM   #22
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Simple answer has to be YES. How could size not matter? Sure, shot placement is the key and size won't matter in every case. However, if you're 350 lbs chances are that even a COM shot is going to have to travel through more tissue, fat, or muscle before it reaches any vitals. Nobody is bullet proof, but if you're gonna get shot you would be better off to have some extra padding.
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Old June 17, 2009, 07:00 AM   #23
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Yes it matters the thicker they are the more stuff there is to deflect the travel of the bullet.
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Old June 17, 2009, 07:05 AM   #24
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If he's big, mean & gonna do nasty things to ya......

Just keep shootin'
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Old June 17, 2009, 07:28 AM   #25
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2 CoM, reassess... if more are needed and rounds are getting low, a head shot may be in order.
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