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View Poll Results: Should a plea deal happen in the pharmacist case?
ABSOLUTELY NOT! 30 51.72%
Yes, if it is a reduced charge and minimal jail time. 23 39.66%
Yes, But only if it is probation only no jail time. 5 8.62%
Voters: 58. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 10, 2009, 10:47 AM   #1
hogdogs
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Should he "plea out"?

Okay if you were a defense attorney, would you suggest a plea deal as the wise move for the Oklahoma Pharmacist?

I rarely feel innocent folks are best served by a plea, but in this case... Maybe.
I know this is veering a bit so if PAX or other mod feels it is too far off base, I guess I will suck it up and move on...
Brent
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Old June 10, 2009, 10:53 AM   #2
doh_312
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Only because it is entirely possible he gets a jury of anti-gunners or anti-defendyourselfers. There is no convincing that type of jury that you were in the right for stepping on a fire ant, much less shooting someone.
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Old June 10, 2009, 01:24 PM   #3
Shadi Khalil
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Okay if you were a defense attorney, would you suggest a plea deal as the wise move for the Oklahoma Pharmacist?
I think a plea is the best thing the defense can hope for. I believe the execution video leaves them little to no recourse.

Quote:
Only because it is entirely possible he gets a jury of anti-gunners or anti-defendyourselfers.
I would be upset if a jury of card carrying NRA members didn't put this guy under the jail. Anti-gun or not, most people are anti-murder.
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Old June 10, 2009, 01:28 PM   #4
Brian Pfleuger
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I would be upset if a jury of card carrying NRA members didn't put this guy under the jail. Anti-gun or not, most people are anti-murder.
Amen brother!
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Old June 10, 2009, 01:30 PM   #5
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Brent,

I think this question would fit better down in the L&CR forum -- moving it there now. Dunno if the mods there want it or not ... ... so they'll make that call.

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Old June 10, 2009, 01:52 PM   #6
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I would be upset if a jury of card carrying NRA members didn't put this guy under the jail. Anti-gun or not, most people are anti-murder.
Not quite an Amen from me, he was wrong and should be punished. But, let's not take out eye off the ball. He was the victim until he shot the offender after the play.
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Old June 10, 2009, 01:54 PM   #7
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One more thing that might help keep this thread on topic for L&CR: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...&postcount=501

That's a post in the Tactics discussion forum with links to a bunch of relevant information about the shooting, including the raw surveillance video footage. I strongly suggest participants follow those links before posting in this thread (just to keep the discussion informed and useful!)

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Old June 10, 2009, 02:00 PM   #8
johnwilliamson062
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It looks like to me:
hmmm. Well the armed robber was getting up, according to the only living witness of the event, and he emptied the gun into him.
The robbers fired at him within the last 30 seconds.
The pharmacist believed he had a firearm in his hand or in his close proximity, reasonable in my mind since the robber was part of a group that had a gun.
The store owner has no responsibility to disarm the assailant or to check him for weapons in my mind. Way too much risk involved in that. If he is moving, and he can reasonably assume the robber is armed I think he is clear to fire in the court of common sense. I think that if a person is clearly part of an armed robbery it is reasonable to assume he/she is armed. If not the initial shot to the head would not be justified as this particular person was not an immediate threat.

IDK what the bullet to the head really did. If the robber was laying on the ground clearly unconscious but twitching or something and the Pharmacist knew he was no threat, than it is clearly murder. If he was under control of his body or the pharmacist believed him to be then it is not in my mind. If this guy was reaching under his persons or something similar that could lead the pharmacist to believe he was going for a still holstered gun or such. I assume we have all seen the action v. reaction quick draw police demonstration where the actor clearly fires before the weapons drawn reacting officer pulls the trigger. This all happened very quickly and I think the unarmed robbers association with the clearly armed robber opens him up to being shot at as it is reasonable in my mind to assume every one of the attackers is armed.

How about a new rule, if you don't want to get shot don't commit armed robbery.

How often do you hear of an point blank "execution" with five quickly fired shots to the torso?
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Old June 10, 2009, 02:11 PM   #9
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John, There are 21 pages of posts to this in the T&T section. Of that there are reports that there is resounding evidence that the BG was down and not moving. What the evidence is has not been released but is "forensic". It goes so far as to say he was not conscious when shot. The bad guys did not fire a single round although the pharmacist claimed to have been shot. He is also repeatedly trying to play the "cripple card" but in the video you see a man able to run after the BG that ran off...
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Old June 10, 2009, 02:19 PM   #10
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Hog your poll needs to include, Plea and Throw Yourself on the Mercy of the Court

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Old June 10, 2009, 03:34 PM   #11
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I've seen enough now that my first reaction is that I would find him not guilty of 1degree if I were on the jury. I definately would find him guilty of manslaughter or 2degree. I'm aware that there may be some evidence that has not been revealed. My reaction may change.

There is a totality of circumstance, and I do take into account that this man didn't ask to be robbed. He still showed malicious and willful ability to take a mans life that was no longer a threat to him. I don't agree with that. I don't want to see him convicted of 1st degree murder, but I don't want him to walk. A few years in the pen to reflect on his actions could do the man some good.
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Old June 10, 2009, 03:53 PM   #12
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If he had gotten behind the counter (cover) after returning inside while keeping a gun pointed toward in the direction of the downed robber to "contain any remaining threat", chances are he would not have fired any
other shots since the robber was down.

Then police come and secure the scene.

The water would not be as hot had he taken a little more of a defensive position / approach.
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Old June 10, 2009, 03:55 PM   #13
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Of that there are reports that there is resounding evidence that the BG was down and not moving. What the evidence is has not been released but is "forensic".
Whoever did the autopsy saying "This injury would clearly cause temporary disablement." What other forensic evidence could they have? The blood splatter analysis could possibly point to an immobile target if there was no smeared blood, but if he bled out on the ground and there was not a slant to the floor there is a very good chance the puddle exceeded the area he could have been moving in. We all know brain injuries are very odd and know of cases where someone received one that should have been catastrophic but was not. I am not buying anything from a medical examiners mouth about his condition at the time. It is very possible the kid was KO'd at first then regained consciousness.

Quote:
It goes so far as to say he was not conscious when shot. The bad guys did not fire a single round although the pharmacist claimed to have been shot.
I have read 4 or 5 papers report on this and all indicated there were shots fired. One was from the second of June. Not saying they did or did not shoot.

Quote:
He is also repeatedly trying to play the "cripple card" but in the video you see a man able to run after the BG that ran off...
When he is walking back he is clearly walking very awkwardly. I would not refer to his movement in any of the video as "running."

If you had video of the guy on the floor it very well might show him incapacitated and you could get a conviction. I would not convict someone on an expert witness who claims to know exactly what a certain gunshot did to someones brain beyond reasonable doubt, but can not tell me what the purpose of sleep is as it pertains to the brain. We know very little about the brain and I see know way he could reliably make this assertion.
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Old June 10, 2009, 03:59 PM   #14
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If my lawyer were not working on a plea deal then
I'd get another.
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Old June 10, 2009, 03:59 PM   #15
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the more I think about it the more I decide the blood splatter analysis could be pretty strong evidence that the robber did not move after the initial shots were fired.
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Old June 10, 2009, 04:26 PM   #16
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John, Quite possibly (just me guessing) the secondary shots passed through the torso and hit the vinyl flooring... so holes in torso with vinyl chips stuck in the shirt and dents in floor lining right up could be part of the forensic evidence. And as you already stated, blood smears on floor, blood lacking or present on robber's palms could also exist.
from a purely speculative mindset, I think, had I felt the guy was still a threat, would have leaned over the counter, where I could duck for some cover, and finished the deed of stopping the threat.
Brent
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Old June 10, 2009, 04:30 PM   #17
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Without solid proof(impartial eye witness) about the movements of the 16 year old(whatever color he may be) let's go with what the hero says.The crippled,older white man who the thugs tried to murder and rob.He says the mugger/murder was moving.Good enough!

If the thug had wrestled the older man and taken his handgun who would have been the victim then?.I think the term would have been disparity of force.Perhaps the old,crippled man(A.K.A.) potential victim and unwilling combatant did what he had to to save his life,store and the lives of his employees.

He shouldn't be charged but should be recognized for not only the foresight but the courage to protect himself and his employees.

Regards,
brair

P.S.I don't care if every cop in L.A. has to run for safety from the riots.It doesn't change a thing.
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Old June 10, 2009, 04:38 PM   #18
Brian Pfleuger
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let's go with what the hero says.
Would could..... if there was a hero. The only witness has a story that keeps changing. A story that, in none of it's forms, matches the video or the forensics.

In other words, your "hero" is a murderer. A murderer who's doing what murderers do, namely, covering his tracks as best he can.
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Old June 10, 2009, 04:43 PM   #19
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But peet... Obviously the pharmacist didn't follow the lead of OJ Simpson who also is an innocent man...
SHUT UP!!! DON'T SAY NUTTIN'!!! PROVIDE ONE STORY AND DON'T DEVIATE NO MATTER WHAT THE EVIDENCE SAYS!!! I don't care if the thug still had a gun in his hand... If he is down plain and simple... the shooting is done!
I would kick the gun across the room though. But in this case, Brair, no gun was there not much need for 5 CoM is there? Or are you all for alley way justice?
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Old June 10, 2009, 04:43 PM   #20
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Is there any doubt who tried to rob whom and who did it while masked and armed?If there is I missed something,
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Old June 10, 2009, 04:52 PM   #21
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I have been following this case very close. I voted plea w/ jail time because I don't see a plea w/out jail time being offered. Who Knows.

Also I have a M.S. in Forensic Science Technical Investigations. I took all the Blood Spatter ( no L) courses offered and I did an internship with OKCPD. Not having seen any crime scene photos it is hard to tell if Spatter analysis will help say if the deceased was trying to get up at the time of the (second) shooting. A gunshot can cause back spatter as much as four feet away from the target IIRC. I think Brent has some good questions regarding blood on the hands/Bullet marks in the floor. The more I think about it I think Blood on the hands of the deceased would be pretty convincing evidence that he was trying to get up assuming the hands weren't under the body.

Also blood spatter caused by gunfire versus blood dripping out of a bullet wound has very different characteristics. Basically (large) drops versus very small drops.

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Old June 10, 2009, 04:56 PM   #22
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Is there any doubt who tried to rob whom and who did it while masked and armed?If there is I missed something,
Regards,
Brair
No there is no doubt who robbed whom. There is also no doubt, legally or morally, where the line is between self defense and murder. The first shot is fine and dandy. No problems. The next 5 are an execution of an unarmed, unconscious, defenseless human being. I don't care if he was raping the mans daughter 5 minutes ago. Shoot to STOP the threat, no threat equals no shoot. Shooting a non-threat, including one that WAS a threat even seconds before, is murder. Plain and simple.
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Old June 10, 2009, 05:26 PM   #23
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Is there any doubt who tried to rob whom and who did it while masked and armed?If there is I missed something,
Regards,
Brair
The deceased was one of the 2 inside that were robbing the place. He did not, in the video, have a weapon drawn. He may have had one in the bag. He may have been trying to get it out but he is not in view of the camera. So it all returns to evidence gathered in the investigation to decide the possible positioning of the robber. Thus far all we have been told is that forensic evidence clearly, to the medical examiner, shows the dead guy was unconscious at the time the final (second time shot) 5 rounds were put into him.
The DA was clearly unhappy he had to prosecute the guy.
Brent
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Old June 10, 2009, 07:56 PM   #24
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johnwilliams,

The police in Lakewood here at home are trained to shoot two to the chest, one to the head to stop a threat. If the threat so much as twitches, they repeat the exercise. I think one would be wise to add more lead to a threat who is still moving weather it is a twitch or otherwise. Just makes sense to me, if they are still moving they are still a threat. Besides in the heat of the moment I doubt you could tell if it were and unconscious twitch or a movement towards a weapon.
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Old June 10, 2009, 07:59 PM   #25
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hogdogs,

As you walk up to your downed threat to kick the gun away from him, he shoots you.

Now your both bleeding because someone lying on the floor equals no threat regardless of a firearm in his hand.
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