The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 8, 2009, 08:21 PM   #126
Hardy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 659
Oh, by the way Articap---hardly any store around here carries fff pyrodex. Most conventional gunshops aren't and a lot are our friends which we have a reciprocal friendly handshake with. We refer customers wanting conventional firearms to them and they send the BP customers to us. Unless Academy carries PyrodexFFF- I don't know anyone else around here that does. Maybe trip 7. I think Walmart stopped their muzzleloading section. Might be wrong , but I'll check. But the big box stores don't have the good stuff. And, we have catelogues to order stuff. We can get stuff overnight. Go to Academy and ask the guy behind the counter if you can buy a loading stand and spare cylinder for your 1858?
WB Hardy
Hardy is offline  
Old August 9, 2009, 12:20 AM   #127
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
Hammers

Ok I caught up to ya Billy Hardy...Hammers now...
Uberti have always cost more and Colt even remakes for origianls or Colt replicas are alwaysway more...
But Pietta for a Uberti won't work, I forget which but one is wider and I think it's Piettas.
Hammers are all for all, Euroarms/ASP, ASM, Uberti, Pietta, E.N. Santa Barbara, Colt, Centaures, are all differant but can be possibly filed to fit and re case hardened...
Search for the correct manufacturer and use that without much fitting effort required.

Enyaw, would you add some info on this subject?

Does that help any Billy?
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old August 9, 2009, 12:56 AM   #128
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
Well people in your area have been buying Pyrodex somewhere before you opened up even if Walmart recently stopped selling it.
And if you ever want to sell those little salute noise making mortars that I provided you a link to earlier, then they will work better with black powder.
You've got to try to stay ahead of the curve.
You're creating some demand so now you've got to work on being able to supply it.
That's what the topic of this thread is all about!
Once licensed there should be a way to sell black powder while you'e on the road too. Other legimate black powder vendors do, so you should find out how to do that too. Then you can attend a rondevouz, reenactment or club shoot and sell some powder on the road. I would hope that there is no reason why you wouldn't be able to deliver it just like a pharmacy or a liquor store.
"Have Powder, Will Travel!"
arcticap is offline  
Old August 9, 2009, 03:28 AM   #129
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,856
Quote:
Here in Orlando there is only one place I know of to buy BP. Black Powder will cost you $20 per lb here. Pyrodex and 777 are easily found. Pyrodex is $20 and 777 is $24. My point was that out Pyrodex, BP, and 777 my last choice would be to use Pyrodex. Since 777 loads can be reduced by 15% and maintain the same energy as BP then that 1 lb can of 777 is like getting 1.15 lbs.
BP isn't available here without a 136 mile one way trip. Last Pyrodex I bought was 16.00. 777 was 26.00. Pyrodex is lighter than bp so it also goes further. Pyrodex isn't nearly as corrosive as most people believe, bp is even less so. I've never used 777 and at 10 bucks per lb. difference I won't.
Hawg is offline  
Old August 9, 2009, 07:28 PM   #130
Hardy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 659
Articap, If I wasn't a candid and humble man I wouldn't be here. I post things that I don't know enough about so as to find out things. It can be embarrasing but it works better than questions. I just started back in this a few months ago so I need all advise I can get---and you have helped me tremendously. The folks that sell it on the internet have a "special" "Distributor" liscense. Again--the ATF in Columbis, SC said pretty near quote: "You have to have a license. Your magazine will be inspected. You can only sell it out of that magazine that is registered to your physical place of biz. If you store it at your house, a barn, or whatever that is other than the place liscenced , you're breaking the law. Sure---I can order Goex over the internet without a license and store it anywhere and free whweel selling it, hopin to not get caught. But as a dealer actually selling it--I'd wind up in jail w/ hefty fine. Also, if this can be bought by anyone (50lbs or less) over the internet for around $12.00 a lb---then how can I sell it with all the ramifications I have previously mentioned and come out. Let me reiterate: A retail license selling real black powder to ordinary customers will be expensive. And, I won't know the demand until muzzleloading season is over which starts in Oct. As for now, Pyrodex is sold at academy that is FF. I still don't know who sells FFF Pyrodex around here. Powder is not the hot item. I think what I'm tryin to decide on, is if I apply for license, buy magazine, and when huntin season is over how many hunters came in wanting it? 10?, 50, 500? I don't know
Hardy is offline  
Old August 9, 2009, 08:37 PM   #131
mykeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2006
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 2,764
I'm not sure you understood what articap wrote.

First of all, you are not competing pricewise with the mail order sales. They're only selling it for $12/lb if you order 25 or more pounds, which costs $300, the price of one gun! Your price comparison should be made on the basis of one sale; you can afford to sell 2 lbs for, let's say, $36; they sell 2 lbs for $65 or more if they'll even sell just 2 lbs at all. Surely you can compete with that.

Most of us real bp users can't afford to lay out $300 at one pop to buy powder, at least not very often. We tend to patronize stores that can sell us $20 to $40 at a time and we pick up a few other trinkets as well while we're there. Or we'll buy a can or two while we're at the store for something else because it's convenient and not $300. That's human nature; it's repeated over and over again hundreds of thousands of times a day across the country.

Yes, you don't know the demand. And if you keep letting that bother you, you never will. Fear of the unknown is natural; it's also ruined more good opportunities than anything else. One thing is for sure, however: the only people, repeat ONLY people, who ever succeeded did so because they took the risk and tried.

Frankly, I'm quite surprised that you look at something called the Academy as competition because they sell one granulation of Pyrodex. Why don't you sell both granulations plus pellets, all 4 granulations of real black in two or three brands, Triple Seven in both granulations and pellets and Shockey's as well? Become THE place for bp supplies in your area - nobody else is. One license, one magazine, one insurance policy to be the big dog on the block. Looks to me like a real opportunity.
mykeal is offline  
Old August 9, 2009, 08:50 PM   #132
Hardy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 659
Oh, ballistol is the best product selling now. Spare cylinders, springs and loading stands are in demand. Powder is not...yet. The cheapest cap and ball revolvers can be bought thru Cabela. I can not compete with them on the unscrolled 44 c Pietta brass revs. As far as the higher quality guns, I can-- such as Ubertie and some special Piettas. So far, the only BP c/b shooters have the cheapest available that they order direct from Cabela. This store has not yet generated a serious buyer of a quality or collectible firearm. The best one sold was a ubertie 1849 pocket 31 C. After Christmas, I might find myself selling my goodies on the road at gunshows. Hope not. And we do have advertising in local papers that we have em.
Hardy is offline  
Old August 9, 2009, 09:18 PM   #133
Hardy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 659
McKeel I can't get a license for at least 3 to 6 months. I told the shop keeper, Bill Kleiber, to say that we,re applying for BP license. And I am. it's whether I can do it. You're right-you have to go out on a limb. Call Bill at 864 804 7080.
Hardy is offline  
Old August 9, 2009, 09:19 PM   #134
Hardy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 659
Sorry, I meant MyKeal
Hardy is offline  
Old August 10, 2009, 08:45 AM   #135
robhof
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 16, 2007
Posts: 708
robhof

When I lived in Melbourne Florida, many years ago, I bought most of my reloading supplies from a double storage unit store. They did 75% of their business at gun shows and about 10% on line and the rest local. I had lived there 10+ years before seeing them at a gun show and realizing they were right in town. If I were you I'd at least try a gun show or 2 to generate interest.
robhof is offline  
Old August 10, 2009, 04:21 PM   #136
ClemBert
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2009
Location: Orlando
Posts: 929
Yup, I'm with mykeal on the competitive pricing discussion with regard to black powder. You absolutely SHOULD NOT attempt to compare a one or two can sale with what one would pay for a 25 lb lot of powder. Probably less than 5% of the black powder buying public is going to shell out more that $300 for a large lot of black powder because:

1. $300 is a lot of money to put out in one shot.
2. Don't want to store 25 cans of BP in their house.
3. May think that BP could go stale (yes, I know it doesn't).
4. Don't think it is necessary to have a 5 year supply on hand.
5. Would rather buy another BP revolver than tie the money up in $300 worth of BP.
6. They aren't as cheap or paranoid as me about grabbing as much BP as you can at the cheapest price while it is still around for the grabbing.

A brick and mortar store offers convenience, knowledge, access, accessories, and hands on visualization in a one stop shop. People WILL pay for that.
ClemBert is offline  
Old August 10, 2009, 04:45 PM   #137
Hardy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 659
Thanks everyone. I guess the topic of this thread is BP ideas-- and I lost perspective on that. I can't get a license for months so I guess I'll just apply for one and tell customers that it'll be available in the near future. That is--if we are still in biz. Got to cut overhead down to the rind to keep a store like this operating and cut the store down in size and put my appraisal biz on the other wall--but my partner ain't all that eager to do so. But don't you think that's a good idea----Articap -Clembert and McKeal and of course you too Smokin Gun, This brick and mortor shop will only stay in business if there are profits after expenses. So far--not enough BP shooters comin in--so I'm shelling out more money for advertising---It ain't easy but somebody got to do it. Some of my colt guns, I'd just soon keep---if they don't sell by Christmas then to gun shows I go. By Feb , if I get the BP license, I just hope in March that you boys and others will come on down And we can get you things that you might not be able to get and if I know it's you--I'll only charge a penny or two. What do you want?


WBHARDY
Hardy is offline  
Old August 10, 2009, 05:09 PM   #138
ClemBert
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2009
Location: Orlando
Posts: 929
Hardy, speaking of advertising...I didn't see a craigslist ad for your place here: Greenville/Upstate Craigslist

I don't know whether or not Craigslist is worth a darn for this kind of stuff. You can't advertise firearms on Craigslist but you certainly can advertise hunting supplies. I have no idea what they charge for a business. You may want to do a free ad for personal hunting supplies you have for sale.
ClemBert is offline  
Old August 10, 2009, 05:21 PM   #139
ClemBert
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2009
Location: Orlando
Posts: 929
Also take a look at South Carolina outdoor shooting ranges as a possible place to advertise.

I'm really surprised there isn't something closer in Greenville/Spartanburg but anyhow you get the idea.
ClemBert is offline  
Old August 10, 2009, 07:31 PM   #140
Hardy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 659
I thought about Craigs list. I'm now in the "I wanna" which covers greenville/Spartanburg. Add comes out tomorrow. Also, I'm in "the Shopper" which is a free publication except of course, for me. Craigs list is a possibility. We feel that we need more 45 muzzleloading sabbots/ more 209 caps/ and an other order of Pyrodex FFF. Even though Pyrodex is a substitute, you still have to pay a hazzard fee for it. I think I want to buy thru either Ellets or Traditions 2 economical disply boxes. I have 2 44 C Pietta steel frames w/ black walnut grips that would look good in one. And the other, I could put an 1851 Navy and a 1861 Navy/ w flask. a wrench. A tin of caps and a few balls and sell them as a kit. You think? But, just ordering some more of what I mentioned adds up in dollars.
Hardy is offline  
Old August 10, 2009, 07:34 PM   #141
Hardy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 659
There is only one public range around here (I know of yet) that allows BP shootin---It's in Cherokee CTY.
WBH
Hardy is offline  
Old August 10, 2009, 07:56 PM   #142
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
Hardy,
I'm not trying to put any "bad" ideas into your head about selling black powder outside of your place of business.

First look at this picture of Jack stating on the internet that he's selling powder to reenactors on the sight outside of his premises.

Quote:
Bringing Goex powder to reenactors.



On location sales help cut shipping costs for reenactors.


We would love to meet you!
Come see us when you are at your next reenactment.



http://jackspowderkeg.com/
Now what I think is routinely done is that just like there is an exemption for FFL's to sell guns at gun shows as an extension of their business premises, there is not any enforcement against licensed black powder dealers who sell at events as long as they are licensed.
Now why no one is admitting it, I'm not sure. But the ATF is not arresting any FFL dealers en mass a gunshows for selling guns off their premises under the authority of their FFL. That's because there is an exemption so that they can do it.
And if there's not an exemption for licensed black powder dealers like Jack's, then it's not enforced. Just like FFL's that attend out of state gunshows, and transfer non-curio & relic guns to in state FFL licensees for retail transfer without returning to their premises first to ship the gun back to complete the sale.
Legally they are only supposed to be taking orders for non-curio & relic guns, but it's simply not commonly enforced unless someone complains, the ATF has a vendetta against the person, or the law is otherwise broken by selling a gun that is illegal in the other state.
So try to understand, I'm not advocating something known to be illegal. If the vehicle carrying the black powder is considered an extension of the business, then the black powder magazine can be carried around to sell black powder.
Talk to other black powder dealers and ask them how they do it.
Jack's wouldn't risk his business promoting illegal activity on the public internet.
Once the ATF looks the other way for every other dealer, then they can't selectively prosecute someone arbitrarily.
The ATF has already admitted in writing that several ordinary people can buy a large order of powder, split it up and transfer it as long as it's done without profit. That's not explicitly allowed under the ATF rules either, but they don't want to prosecute the otherwise law abiding citizen over harsh rules, so they officially look the other way.

We're the people & the NRA, freedom rules and "Live Free or Die!"

Last edited by arcticap; August 10, 2009 at 08:11 PM.
arcticap is offline  
Old August 10, 2009, 08:03 PM   #143
ClemBert
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2009
Location: Orlando
Posts: 929
It wouldn't be a bad idea to give Jack's a call and ask them. I spoke with the proprietor, Angelo Piazza, for a good 40 minutes one day. He's a nice enough guy to speak with. He is also a lawyer and a judge so he may have some insight for you on the subject. It would be a good idea to speak with him anyways since he is a master distributor for GOEX and it is likely you would be ordering from him anyways. Ask him about discounts to retailers while you are at it.

p.s. Hardy, even though the outdoor gun ranges do not allow BP firearms they are a good place to advertise to folks who like to hunt and shoot firearms.
ClemBert is offline  
Old August 11, 2009, 07:24 PM   #144
Hardy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 659
Thanks guys---I'ma workin on it. But let me ask you a question... Have you ever walked into Brick/M store that caught your interest and had a great time browsing and talking.But didn't buy anything. I know I have. But if you're on the other side of the counter you're thinkin--"I hope he buys somethin" And yeah, good will, friendliness goes a long way and they all say they'll be back w/friends. You can't help but think about what all this is costing. And you hope they'll be back. Very seldom they do. You make a sale from the customer looking for something and ready to buy. The others that chit chat 'bout everythingthey know' don't. Oh some come back to chit chat some more. And they always leave with a card braggin about us and sayin their friends will come because of me. Not so far. A man walks in and asks if you got this and buys it. The other guys just BS and we BS back and at least they have somewhere to go and talk to friendly faces. But they don't buy nothin. And In 4 months only 2 people have asked me if I carried real BP.

The hot item is Blackhawk for powder in our store which is expensive and also there is a new powder copming out soon(A BP hunter that used to work for Pyrodex) said and produces same smoke and punch. I'll find out more. So---the blackhawk is the hot item now? But you're only supposed to use it behind a209 primer. Hey, I'm just a shop keeper. But We are applying for BP licensce anyway.
Hardy is offline  
Old August 11, 2009, 07:44 PM   #145
Hardy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 659
God forgive me. I have crs bad. Its called black horn 209. Not Blackhawk. Why am I so dumb. ? That be what they want though
Hardy is offline  
Old August 12, 2009, 01:31 AM   #146
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
You never know when someone will buy something. The fact is that if someone isn't coming in, then they sure aren't going to be buying anything. It's better to at least have someone coming in than no one coming in. If they come in then at least they're thinking about or have an interest in an item that brought them in. When and if they're ready they may buy something even if it takes 25 visits.
Just be their friend and they will throw some money at you eventually.
Offer him a special deal and then maybe he'll come back and buy some powder & supplies for it.
No one ever said that being in business was easy.

Now where are you going to have that new BP club shooting range for the Sunday black powder shoots! You need to set up some targets that clang!

Last edited by arcticap; August 12, 2009 at 01:37 AM.
arcticap is offline  
Old August 13, 2009, 04:54 PM   #147
Hardy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 659
I guess you're right Articap--But still not sure about the real BP. Pellets and blackhorn are what the hunters want and as I posted earlier theres a new powder that works and smokes like BP and a guy that works for Pyrodex said they're comin out real soon with their new product. I'm still checking insurance though. By the way, I was told you have to have a certified range officer on duty at group shootings. Is that so?

WBH
Hardy is offline  
Old August 13, 2009, 05:01 PM   #148
ClemBert
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2009
Location: Orlando
Posts: 929
Blackhorn 209 has been out for awhile at around $30/lb. At least I've seen it on the shelves in a couple of places. My impression was it was for inline long guns only and not for revolvers but I don't know that for a fact. I suppose most BP hunting involves a long gun but I only do the wheel guns. I assume you'd use a 209 cap with Blackhorn 209 and not attempt to use Blackhorn 209 in a revolver with a #10 cap.
ClemBert is offline  
Old August 13, 2009, 06:21 PM   #149
mykeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2006
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 2,764
A trained Range Safety Officer overseeing and operating the firing line at match events is mandatory for many if not most organized events and venues. There is a very good reason for that: safety. Having everyone using the same rules with an experienced supervisor looking for dangerous deviations (whether by mistake or carelessness) greatly increases safety.
mykeal is offline  
Old August 13, 2009, 07:39 PM   #150
Hardy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 659
You're right. Blackhorn can only be fired with a 209 primer, do not try it in revolvers. also, I;m trying to gather as much info on the new fff powders for revolvers that are more comparable to Real BP. There is one out and I know Pyrodex is soon to release their version. It'll be interesting.

Pyrodex dissapoints shooters because instructions are based on using Real BP and the grains for pyrodex needs to be more. For example: a 36 recommends 18 to 20 grns. A standard 44 recommends 25 to 30+/-. You need to pack at least 25 grains of pyrodex in chambers of 36 to get a desired effect. I'm not sure, but I would think 44 colts should have at least 35 grns--maybe remingtons more and of course dragoons and walkers more!!!
Hardy is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.16286 seconds with 8 queries