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Old July 29, 2009, 06:16 PM   #101
Smokin' gun
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Well Smokin I'm glad you like um. My daughter is a shutter bug and can take good pics. what do want to give me for it?

I'm also waitin to here back from insurance Co about carrying BP. You read the last post---I have to have special magazine to store bulk. I can't just but one can or even 1 bottle of Pyrodex. To buy one bottle of pyrodex costs $20.00 hazard fee. If you buy 24 cans of pyrodex it is still only $20.. BP is going to carry a hazzard fee charge. So--the only 2 issues of me retailing this is whether insurance goes up and fire marshall. The license and vault is no problem. Maybe that's why few people are carrying it because they can't sell enough to offset the fees, cost and hazzards.
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Old July 30, 2009, 03:33 PM   #102
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Quote:
This is what a powder magazine looks like and it's priced $100 less than at Cabela's. It may need to be stored in an out building and not in a residence or dwelling, but I'm not sure what the storage regulations are. AFAIK powder magazines aren't required for individuals, but they are for dealers and at gunshows.

http://www.mainepowderhouse.com/catalog_safe.php
You would think that thing would only cost $100 or $125. But, I guess compared to Cabellas it is a decent price. From the picture of it you can tell it isn't huge. I guess if it holds fifty 1 lb cans then that should be plenty big. Plus it won't take up too much space either in your store.
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Old July 30, 2009, 05:45 PM   #103
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ATF told me I could put it in what ever---and after processing liscence application w/fee attached they would inspect your magazine. If they approve it--fine-- if not then you have to buy one they do. A lot goes to size of bldg etc. YOU CANNOT STORE IT OFF SITE THAT THEY LICENSE TO-legally} I have a safe ( a small consumer home safe about 2X3 called sentry 1230. I can put that in there but if ATF says no--then I got to get what they say. Dixie gun works have approved magazines from $250.00-----If I try to use whatever; they will inspect and if say no--then license is held up for more months. The Atf processess your license and then inspects your storage. BP has to be bought by a dealer in 50 to less pounds per bulk and can only be stored in that ONE magazine. AND You cannot sell more than 10lbs to one person. I'm waiting to hear back from the insurance. The cost of the vault and license is not the big issue---It's the legal requirements/ramifications weighed against the dangers and the costs to store it. If my insurance man comes back w/grave news on storing this then'll I understand why no one much is doing this.
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Old July 31, 2009, 04:03 AM   #104
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The NRA has a business alliance program for gun related businesses. One of the benefits is business liability insurance. And you can get a no obligation insurance review through the program even if you're not an NRA business affiliate yet just by filling out the online form below.

It doesn't hurt to ask and a gun related business might be able to save some money by sticking with the NRA endorsed company that specializes in providing it. It goes by the name of Locton Risk.
Now don't be shy and just fill out the form in the 2nd link: (Did you get it - "the 2nd link" and "the 2A"? )

And if you can get an additional discount on insurance by becoming an affiliated NRA business, then join up and put the NRA sticker in your store window!

http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/alliance.htm

http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/bi...ncecontact.asp

Last edited by arcticap; July 31, 2009 at 04:08 AM.
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Old July 31, 2009, 05:55 PM   #105
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Got it Articap- and will read it after this posting. My insurance man said he had no companies that would insure me if I carry BP. The Atf says that it has to be stored at your place of biz---If I changed my license to my house and stored it here then my insurance would be cancelled or void if I had a fire. I think-I may want to talk to someone else that might can help. Maybe some dealers sell it w/out insurance. I could do that--but MURPHYS LAW---Insurance problems is why stores don't sell it no mo!
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Old August 1, 2009, 06:40 PM   #106
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There is an independent insurance agen working next to us that I knew years ago. he's one of those that is so flexible within the relms of the law that would make Gumby not able to touch is toes. I'm going to ask him this week if he can put the same type policy(similar to what we have) on our shop that will cover 'rbp'. I have to have fire and theft coverage/ cause what if the bldg went up in smoke or someone broke in and stole my precious goodies.

Now I could free wheel, but if the bldg blew up then maybe landlord would sue!?

Anyway, I'll find out. Thanks Articap for the info. So far not that many people want the real stuff. Whatcha think Smokin Gun on all this?

Sold a gun today---Ubertie Pocket 31 C--YEA
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Old August 2, 2009, 02:47 AM   #107
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That's a sign of good luck and I hope you start sellin' many more.
On the BP, how far is the Shop from home? Maybe that's bad advice ...
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Old August 2, 2009, 10:05 AM   #108
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That's interesting that a lot of people want Pyrodex but not Goex. I wonder why the preference for Pyrodex? Personally, out of Pyrodex, BP, and 777 the Pyrodex is my third choice.
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Old August 2, 2009, 04:04 PM   #109
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Clembert it only took three 28gr loads of ffg 777 to knock out the wedge and shear of both locating pins on a pietta 1860 Army... I won't use it anymore, I jus' have a need to mention it so anyone that uses it knows to lighten up the loads 15% by volume or more. I only use the real thing and can't imagine why anyone prefers it over the real thing, Black Powder...BP is more consistant to load accurate stings and groups and BP bought in 10/lb lots is less than half the cost of 777 from Powder Inc... BP can be used safely with Lube pills or Wooly Wads lubed or not and 777 is ...Hogdon says noyt to do this as it could be hazardous... I am certain you have read this on their site but I'll say it for others to bennefit from.
I'd choos e pyrodex myself over 777 if I had no choice of BP.
I have done extensive testing with that one pound of 777 ffg I bought, no matter what i did from 10-25-50 and 75 yards 777 groups were larger or off the target and had misfires and Pfffts several times.
I'm not tellin' anyone not to use it, but why i don't like it or use it in C&B Revolvers.
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Old August 2, 2009, 05:21 PM   #110
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Pyrodex is what I shoot now and I remember back in the 70's using real BP. Since it's been so long, I don't know. i do know I can get certified to sell it but I won't have insurance on shop. if I store it at my house and sell it I have to keep records. So that's catch22! According to ATF, it has to be stored at you biz. I guess i could keep it in the house and bring a pound or so to the shop--but you're risking being put in jail---which I don't want. They've got it figuerd out---you keep it and have insurance or you hide it and then Atf comes after you--possibly. I bet the guys selling it don't have insurance but I could greatly be wrong. Like I saiod, I know an insur. man that I'm gonna quiz Monday. The only way I'm goin to sell it, is if I can get insurance at basically the same rate I have. Actually, the only serious buyers of this stuff around here are re-enactors and they get it from their superior. A substitute ff2 called blackhawk209 is what hunters want here. It is expensive. As far as that 777, i'm not sure I know what that is. We have triple 7 brand ff2 powder. And Pioneer.
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Old August 2, 2009, 06:11 PM   #111
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Clembert it only took three 28gr loads of ffg 777 to knock out the wedge and shear of both locating pins on a pietta 1860 Army... I won't use it anymore, I jus' have a need to mention it so anyone that uses it knows to lighten up the loads 15% by volume or more. I only use the real thing and can't imagine why anyone prefers it over the real thing, Black Powder...BP is more consistant to load accurate stings and groups and BP bought in 10/lb lots is less than half the cost of 777 from Powder Inc... BP can be used safely with Lube pills or Wooly Wads lubed or not and 777 is ...Hogdon says noyt to do this as it could be hazardous... I am certain you have read this on their site but I'll say it for others to bennefit from.
I'd choos e pyrodex myself over 777 if I had no choice of BP.
I have done extensive testing with that one pound of 777 ffg I bought, no matter what i did from 10-25-50 and 75 yards 777 groups were larger or off the target and had misfires and Pfffts several times.
I'm not tellin' anyone not to use it, but why i don't like it or use it in C&B Revolvers.
Here in Orlando there is only one place I know of to buy BP. Black Powder will cost you $20 per lb here. Pyrodex and 777 are easily found. Pyrodex is $20 and 777 is $24. My point was that out Pyrodex, BP, and 777 my last choice would be to use Pyrodex. Since 777 loads can be reduced by 15% and maintain the same energy as BP then that 1 lb can of 777 is like getting 1.15 lbs. Add the convenience of easy access to it versus the one store on the other side of town then you are talking about a fairly even tradeoff with regard to price. I recently bought a 25 lb lot of GOEX over the internet. The price was $12.60 per can. The best price I could find on GOEX anywhere but still not less than half of what 777 costs at the local store.

Reasons to use 777 is that it is consistent and accurate. 777 should not be compressed. If you do then consistency and accuracy will suffer. Just seat the ball on top of the powder. 777 easily cleans up with water. Fouling is kept to a minimum as a by product of shooting 777 the residue is kind of like a "lube" and many will say you don't need a lube at all with it. I'm not sure where you read using a wad is hazardous with 777. I have a 1 lb can sitting right in front of me as I type this and it says right on the can to use a wonder wad.

As I understand it, Pyrodex in more corrosive than 777 or BP. How much more, I do not know. I just don't understand why Smokin' Gun's customers prefer Pyrodex over real BP. That is my question. No doubt there are differing opinions of 777 vs BP but I'm trying to understand the Pyrodex thang.
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Old August 2, 2009, 07:09 PM   #112
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Wait a minute. I didn't say smokin' guns' customers prefered pyrodex over goex BP... I said the majority of BP buyers are civil war/ Revolutionary reanactors that get their BP from their regiment. i'm sure if I had Goex--people would buy it. I was just trying to say that selling it legally is not just a simple thing but complicated and expensive w/ legal ramifications and might not be cost effective. All I said was that I shootfff pyrodex and remember shooting BP in the 70's. I'll buy some Goex--but can't sell it legally - and shoot it!!!! I do know that the lesser recommended grains don't work too good w/ pyrodex. Say 18g for a 36 doesn't fire well. I use 25 g in 36 and 35 g in standard 44's. I've never shot a dragoon or Walker so I'm sure thats different.
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Old August 2, 2009, 07:23 PM   #113
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My bad then...What do you expect, I'm breathin' too many sulfur fumes.
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Old August 2, 2009, 07:38 PM   #114
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Quote:
I bet the guys selling it don't have insurance
I can identify more than a dozen businesses in Michigan that sell real black powder, from small mom and pop operations to the Bass Pro Outdoor World mega box store at Great Lakes Crossing mall on the north side of metro Detroit. I can say with a great deal of confidence that none of them are doing without insurance, nor are they storing it at home and bringing it to the shop a pound at a time. If they found a way you can also. If you'd like to know where they have their insurance policies I'd be glad to put you in touch with several of them.
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Old August 2, 2009, 07:47 PM   #115
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I've smoked, breathed, popped, and drank all kind of stuff===so I am the one that's brain dead!---but since I'm now in my 50's, I'll try the sulfur fumes instead of all that stuff I did in my guitar slingin days in the 70's.
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Old August 2, 2009, 07:49 PM   #116
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Sure McKeel-why not -thanks
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Old August 2, 2009, 09:56 PM   #117
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I'm shaking my head here...as an N-SSA member, I'm used to being able to get black powder in any needed amount.

FWIW, I would strongly recommend organizing a North-South Skirmish Association team in your area. Skirmishers are notorious for buying the better equipment.
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Old August 3, 2009, 12:15 AM   #118
Smokin_Gun
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Clembert I din't say I bought Goex BP...and I bought it from Powder Inc...
http://www.powderinc.com/cgi-bin/bps...R_ID=106917431
about 3 months ago 10/lbs for $149 shipped to my door including hazmat fees and it is KIK powder that's a bit hotter than Goex. Powder Inc. presently sells 25/lbs for $10.75 all fees included to your door. That's less that half the cost of Triple Se7en anywhere I know of. Goex sells for $18.65 a LB. Locally...that was last fall.
777 does need a lube pill or a lubed wad or it cakes harder than BP or Pyrodex and does not jus' rinse off...
If you have a calibrated hand to load a C&B Rev I'm sure it may give accuate indications on your target ... paper tells a true story...
Hell man I'll send you the $20 you said it costs for Goex fffg BP 200 lube pills print 100 rounds of .44 cal RB's on 25 yard targets say with the Goex using my lube pills and the Goex fffg and 100 rounds of Triple Se7en Hogdon with a dry round ball of equating 28gr or so. Show me your best groups of each and tell me which one binds up first and was easier top clean...
If the 777 is more accurate all the way to 100 rounds say one of the first and last targets of each you keep the $20, if the Goex wins you send me you send me the $20 back and $10 for the lube pills :O)

Honor among BP Shootists ;O)

I've already done it and been trying to tell you my findings ...

Anyway I ain't burnt enough brains cells to know that The Holy Black is the best dang thing you can use in any Black Powder Revolver... and today makes 16 years of Sobriety for me so brain cells can grow back. Somebody drink to that for me please...

I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong :O)
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Old August 3, 2009, 10:44 AM   #119
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Oh lord, now we are going to have to hear how Smokin Gun broke his Pietta 1860 again because he used 28 grains of KIK powder which is hotter than Goex....hehehe.
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Old August 3, 2009, 02:08 PM   #120
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Nope you won't cause it din't break it :O)
My point was don't compress the Triple Se7en and if you don't compress it like you can any Swiss, KIK, Goex,Elephant, or whatever Black Powder how would you get it right/consistant loadin' a revolver as accurate as you would a Brass Cartridge?
Do ya's follow my meanin'? The only way I could figure would be with a Triple P Loading Press that Loads Cylinder of most any make or model ... Tim did a great job on those for a very fair price.
What you said was pretty funny Clembert no it really wasSo I'll tell ya what I'll do I'll take a Remington instead of a Colt out with my Triple P Loader with it's Micrometer type adjustments and load it with 28gr of 777 powder havin' the ball jus' to the powder w/o compressing it ... so as it is loaded the same everytime and try the rest of the 777 ffg have and compare it to both Goex and KIK then bring the results back here to all of the World.
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Last edited by Smokin_Gun; August 3, 2009 at 08:26 PM.
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Old August 3, 2009, 04:13 PM   #121
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Just don't blame me if you break your 1858 'cause I know how much you love dem 1858's. Personally, I like the 1858 better than the Colts too. No stupid retarded wedge contraption to begin with.

I'm not trying to sell anyone on 777. I'll just buy it at $24/lb before I drive across town for a $20 can of Goex. But seeing I just brought a whopping order of Goex I guess I'll be flying high with that special rotten egg scent.

Seriously though, no compression of the 777. I learned how to load it after a couple of cylinders of it paying attention to how full the cylinder was with powder and wad. A lot of people swear by it rather than at it like some people we know....hehehe. Anyhow, powder selection is like religion. You just can't get a consensus on powder even in the Church of the Holly Black so I refrain from pushing one type or another. I just like Pyrodex the least of the three propellants I mentioned.

If nothing else we are giving you an excuse to go make lots of flame and smoke in the name of science.

I would think Smokin' Gun's customer would enjoy the real McCoy.
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Old August 8, 2009, 02:52 PM   #122
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I still don't know how much insurance will go up if I sell Goex. But I do know that it is a $200.00 license fee for three years and a special magazine that it needs to be stored in. The cost of the license and magazine is really only a portion of the issue---The insurance. It takes 3 to 6 mo's to get licensed. I need to figure out(after finding reasonable insurance) if enough people want it verses the cost! I don't know any bigbox stores around here that sell it. I don't know of but one small guy that sells it. I do know that people that used to sell it (here) don't anymore. If I sold 50 pounds in 6 months I would still loose money when you calculate everything.
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Old August 8, 2009, 06:09 PM   #123
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You might need to charge about $20 per pound and maybe give a small discount for quantity like 2 lbs. for $36.
It's not about the money, it's about keeping customers who buy guns coming to your store even if they don't need to buy another gun.
It's just like a having an auto repair garage that sells gasoline.
Folks can buy Pyodex almost anywhere, but most folks don't want to pay a Hazmat fee for only 1 - 3 lbs. of black powder.
People seek out BP dealers and once they find you and your volume increases then you can lower your prices.
It's a small investment with the potential for larger returns in the form of loyal repeat customers.
And you will also sell more guns as a result.
Remember that you're trying to grow a long term business when most small businesses fail within 5 years or less.
Insurance, insurance, insurance is a necessity so that's why you need to ask the NRA insurance company that pools the risks of gun related businesses and that understands that they are often much less risky ventures than most other commercial insurers will give them credit for being.
Have you filled out the NRA insurance inquiry form yet?
Don't just buy your insurance from an independent local agency until you at least talk to several of the insurance outfits that specialize.
At the very least least you should break even over a 2 year period.
You need black powder products to sell besides guns.
Be one of the few, one of the proud and one of the brave.
Build the black powder magazine of your dreams and "they will come!"

Last edited by arcticap; August 9, 2009 at 12:37 AM.
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Old August 8, 2009, 07:49 PM   #124
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OK =Articap-- You talked me into doin something I was trying to talk myself out of but was probably goin to do it anyway but maybe not unless you talked me back into it
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Old August 8, 2009, 07:51 PM   #125
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Smokin! Come over here and lets talk about hammers, springs and things. Somebody's got to be the gunsmith.
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