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Old June 13, 2009, 08:56 PM   #1
Smokin' gun
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Black powder Store - Ideas?

I was advised to post this from suggestions from a previous thread in this catagory. I'm not here to endorse or sell our products but to get good info from all of you that know and have a passion/knowledge and experience with mostly cap and ball revolvers. We have a lot of antiques, curios hunting etc. But I want to get an interest going on these guns! So far the cheaper brass frames like the Piettas Reb Confederate and similar types (but not the higher end ones) are selling...but no one seems to want to buy the good ones here in S.C. They like looking at them----I won't go any further yet but I'm the only store around that has a variety of these percussion revolvers in a display case. Please offer advice if you want to.:} Billy Hardy
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Old June 13, 2009, 11:35 PM   #2
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To me, I would like to see lower prices. With lower prices...you will sell more guns, etc. Hope this helps.
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Old June 14, 2009, 12:14 AM   #3
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1. C&B revolver shooting is often associated with muzzle loading clubs. If there are any local BP clubs, make contact with members and ask if you can refer people to them to help out both their club and your business. It serves a mutualistic purpose. Promoting a muzzle loading club also promotes your business. Help them and the chances are that they will help you.

2. If no muzzle loading clubs exist in your area, consider starting one. It doesn't cost much to become affililiated with the NMLRA. It doesn't take many people to start a club. They can then began to pool their efforts and resources to find and/or lease a place to shoot while meeting at the houses of members or at a sponsoring business.
I've seen hunting clubs get off the ground that way, and there are creative ways for new clubs to raise money and begin having activities and making their presence known in the neighboring communities.
Even if there are only regular gun clubs in your area, if there are C&B shooters who are members of those clubs, why not ask them if they would be willing to help introduce new shooters to the sport. Why not ask them if there's anything that you can do to help them in exchange for introducing others to the activity?

3. I know of a defunct muzzle loading shop owner that was also involved in organizing shooting events on his private property for the muzzle loading club that he was a member of as well as for members of the general public that wanted to participate. Of course participation fees were collected to pay for prizes and expenses like targets. And because he also had a shop on the premises he sold powder, ammunition and supplies.
He had plate racks and metal silohuettes, turkey shoots and also held .22lr single action revolver shoots.
It helps if someone in the community organizes and holds shooting events to create a practical use and demand for the type of shooting and the guns that are being promoted.
Many folks don't know how to shoot C&B pistols, don't have a reason to shoot or buy them, and don't want to shoot them alone or learn to all by themselves. If an individual or club organizes events then people would be more inclined to participate and invest money in black powder guns.

4. A business owner can promote a knowledge base about the C&B sport and everything that's involved with shooting them.
Providing people with reading material, like copies of related magazine articles or a list of websites relating to BP and C&B shooting will increase the chances that some people will learn and research about the sport further on their own and will even consider taking up the activity soley as individuals.
For instance, a majority of smokeless shooters aren't aware of conversion cylinders and cowboy action type shooting events. It might be growing sport in some geographic areas and among some shooters, but not universally where there isn't much exposure, or promotion of events.
Even inviting individuals to come and shoot your own personal guns can spark an interest in individuals to take up the activity.
That's how it was for every shooting activity that I became involved with over the years. When that invitation doesn't occur, then sometimes interest can be sparked on line, but that requires more initiative on the part of the previously uninterested indivdual. Whereas a personal invite can arouse interest simply on the basis of personal contact.
People often respond to a stimulus. But that still requires stimulation of some kind, and someone to provide it.
You stimulated this thread, so maybe you can stimulate some individuals in your local area too.

Last edited by arcticap; June 15, 2009 at 01:50 AM.
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Old June 14, 2009, 06:52 PM   #4
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Thanks,

I'm selling them as cheap as I can. Got to put a few bucks in my pock though. I don't like the Pietta model 1851 Navy 44 Lawmaker. Since I'm just learning(but I guess I knew just enough to get in trouble lol)--this Pietta is a tough one to break down!! It's so tight it might as well be glued together. It appears that the reb 36 confederate in the wooden box is what these boys like ( actually this is a Gunnison remake and for the price it appears, feels and action is excellent. I know it's a brass frame and so many of you say this is crap- but... I'd rather handle that one as far as the 44 Pietta steel Navy . I like the 36 c Uberties. I do have 1, 2 and 3 colts---but I kinda want to keep um. I have um pricy

As far as supplies--- Ballestol and Shenandoah bore solvent is popular. i have some "Dam Good Gun Oil" but I don't like it. Anyone had experience with this?
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Old June 14, 2009, 07:22 PM   #5
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And Articap, thanks for your input. We do have manuals etc...and just getting out the word on blackpowder to re-enactment regiments. The battle of Cowpens plus other Revolutionary war battles were fought here. So, we do have that goin' but they are into muskets--bayonets etc. And the curios and antiques are keeping the store holding it's on---but the cap and ball revolvers are different. I'm gonna stimulate these guys and gals on these damn guns because it is a big time challenge! Thanks for the advice. Keep giving it! Billy
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Old June 14, 2009, 08:03 PM   #6
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May be a bunch of pics, that allways get folks intrested.
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Old June 14, 2009, 08:54 PM   #7
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I would--but I didn't want to do selling on this thread. I am working on a website though. Seriously-I'm just doing this for fun and talkin to people who know more than me about c/b revolvers. And by the way---T 17 breach plug grease is good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Not talking about their bore solvent etc. It comes in a little tube. You can buy it at Wall Mart.
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Old June 14, 2009, 09:10 PM   #8
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One of the problems when I first got interested in BP was finding a place to shoot. Can't shoot indoors and many outdoor clubs don't like BP. I finally found a public range that I found through a local dealer where I've bought BP supplies. He had flyers copied and laying out. If it hadn't been for that, I wouldn't be buying guns and supplies.

So, maybe, you could find out where BPer's shoot, make up a flyer, get some contact names, try to start a club (or get someone else to do it), and create a little excitement about it.

You could also focus on the historical aspects of the BP sport. I initially got interested because I wanted to experience what it felt like to shoot the same kind of weapons my great-grandfather and great-uncle used in the Confederate cavalry. Look up the locations and local chapters ("camps") for the Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV) in your area, and go to a monthly meeting and make a presentation. These guys are not typically re-enactors but have a keen interest in Civil War history. They could make good customers for you.
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Old June 15, 2009, 01:48 AM   #9
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Smokin' Gun, some people will want new unfired guns in the box, others mostly seasoned shooters or shooters who are jus' frugle will eyeball and buy a used Gun more quickly...most of these type buyers know their way around as a kitchen table gunsmith. About 88% of the the people in these forums are of that nature.
I went into a local gunshop owned by a guy I used to work with...left two Colt 1860 Army .44's nickel/gold plated faux ivory griped Piettas behind the glass sold the pair in 3 days for $500...the next week my ASM Engraved nickel/Gold .44 1858 NMA Rem sold for $375 in 2 days...these were the only C&B Guns in the store... Sometimes Gunbroker deals can be profitable for resale if the antee isn't upped to high. I've sold a few in the last 3 mo. by print or word of mouth.
All depends on the price for what is available when it comes to sales...in a word some variety...differances capture the eye...jus' like on these here forums.
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Old June 15, 2009, 02:11 AM   #10
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How about having a special deal and putting together a little "starter kit" of accessories for anyone who buys a particular gun that has enough profit in it for you to cover the cost of including the kit?
Then put up a little sign, [Your choice of] "Balls, caps, wads [or] Bore Butter [or] nipple wrench [or] powder measure included with purchase."
Or just include one simple little item like an inexpensive loading stand i.e. - "Free loading stand with purchase".

Most folks say that they really like these stands.
And save some money by making them yourself!
Come on, show a little bit of love!

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/es...ductCode=A1308

Last edited by arcticap; June 15, 2009 at 01:02 PM.
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Old June 15, 2009, 09:31 AM   #11
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Do you sell stuff for blackpowder cannons? Leather? gun smith tools? You need something to "grab" them so they will come in the door.
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Old June 15, 2009, 11:23 AM   #12
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We have two places in the local area that sell black powder firearms in addition to modern firearms. Each day I notice that the black powder supply aisles dwindling. The two biggest reasons I get from the store owners are interest and red tape.

The interest isn't there. People are not buying the basic firearms. So the sales are mainly the curious shopper or one-timer. And this buyer typically goes for the cheapest thing on the block. Or they are buying a wall hanger--not the curio--the shiny engraved one. So they are having to keep a large selection on hand in order to sell one. With folks turning to the internet or clubs to make their second-hand purchases, the store owner has little chance to compete. So work on that web site.

But to me, the real reason businesses around here are struggling is the red tape. We do not have even one local seller who will to take the time or money to meet all the federal and state requirements to sell real black powder. In fact, we have only one shop in all of Oregon, that I am aware of, that sell black powder. So we have to get use to the substitutes. But the store owners frustration with the government wears off on the customer. If they don't carry the supplies, and supplies are hard to come by, it is hard to advance beyond the curious shopper.

We have a few re-enactment groups in the area. And maybe they will be able to spark some interest. But with the expense, I see it a lot like reloading shotgun shells. In today's throw away, mass produce mentality, it is cheaper to buy 12 and 20 gauge new than to reload them. But with the other, less popular, gauges it saves money. Today it is cheaper to buy the modern pistols and revolvers. Their shells are readily available and they are easier to clean and care for. But for the odd person, there is nothing like the smell of smoke and the mess of cleaning wads.

I have found working with the young Boy Scouts that you can create an interest there. I have a group who knew nothing of black powder before we started, but today enjoy shooting black powder. You may want to look into becoming a Merit Badge Counselor. Work with the next generation of consumers. You may not sell many firearms directly. But an interest may be started and you will be the first place they turn. Also, look into hunting groups.

Best of luck.
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Old June 15, 2009, 01:13 PM   #13
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Quote:
Do you sell stuff for blackpowder cannons?
Have a July 4th or other holiday black powder special.
It's probably too late to offer some of these inexpensive golf ball mortars and salute cannons. But maybe you can offer some next year.

$59 delivered and out of stock for July 4th!

http://www.cannonthunder.com/aboutus.html

http://www.cannonthunder.com/index.html

Last edited by arcticap; June 15, 2009 at 01:21 PM.
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Old June 15, 2009, 01:59 PM   #14
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Arcticap, Go to WWW.sassnet.com, look for affiliated clubs and see if you have some CAS clubs in your area. The cap and ball revolvers are becoming more popular in CAS. Might be a source for sales.
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Old June 15, 2009, 04:31 PM   #15
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Got a father's day special going this week thru Sat. muzzleloading season starts in Oct---Then Christmas. After that---I don't know. you're right, expensive c/b revolvers don't sell. I have them new starting at 179---I can't sell them any cheaper. Real Black powder requires licenses-a much higher insurance and a special vault. That is probably why it is getting harder to find. I don't sell it because it won't recap all the investment and red tape. Billy
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Old June 15, 2009, 04:59 PM   #16
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Here's a good question for you 88%

I have an original 1849 pocket. There is an excessive gap between barrel and cyilnder but it cocks if you lift it upwards where the cylinder falls to the hammer hand. I noticed the barrel frame that fits to the frame is irregular and if you stoned on filed that part --the cylinder would fit snugger. Is this a good idea or just leave it alone to sell for antique purposes.

Also, the brass trigger guard is exposing in a few worn areas what I think is silver. I might be wrong. I think brass frame guns in the day had a higher content of copper which made them stronger. The new ones probbly have a weaker mix to copper.

I like that 1849 but don't won't to bugger it up---or would you mill it>?
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Old June 15, 2009, 07:10 PM   #17
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Quote:
Is this a good idea or just leave it alone to sell for antique purposes.
If you wanna keep it's originality as an Antique, I'd leave it alone... is you still want to make it shoot I can ask a Gunsmith in Ohio if he'd face bacvk the frame for you...i had him do that to my first Centaure Beglium 1960/1860 Colt Army. He went thru it to include closing the gap for me...it looks like the old Colt that it is but is all anewed inside tha tighenrd up like new.

Here's something I have posted on my BPR Site on Voy.com/ go over and see further info on it. Thought you might want them for your Store...

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...e/RonLongs.jpg
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Old June 15, 2009, 07:39 PM   #18
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Looks good-how much? Now remember we got rent/pwer etc so get your heart right. Thanks a bunch. I love my 2nd gen colts but the baby dragoon NIB I'd probally sell less and happier than the rest,
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Old June 15, 2009, 09:11 PM   #19
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Quote:
Looks good-how much?
Here's my site go to the thread For Sale by Ron Long ... I'm not sure if I should or can post an add here ... so go take a look. An assortment of accourments...
http://www.voy.co/60048/
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Old June 19, 2009, 07:35 PM   #20
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What is a 2nd generation(No bells or whistles) baby dragoon nib w/atttached papers worth? Wait a minute---not what you would pay but just offering it to the public in my shop? I got a bunch of other stuff like that but I've found they are getting harder and harder to find on the net. Am I not right!?
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Old June 19, 2009, 07:57 PM   #21
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I meant just the baby's. I looked at the Pietta stainless 1860 44 Army and I liked it---but ---is it like that 1851 44Lawman? If it is then I can't sell it.

I have a 3'd generation 36 navy signiture series nib with accessories box. I kinda want to keep it but I'd sell it if it's more valuable than just having one to shoot . I mean is it worth more than 700 to someone. I aint selling on this tread--but if you had it ,what would you ask for it in a store? No I didn't post pics but just imagine that it's brand new and the stainless steel trigger strap and back strap with the ingraved colt signiture. No papers are with it---just the 2 gray boxes.
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Old June 20, 2009, 05:54 AM   #22
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Billy,

I've been in the black powder gun & accouterment business for several years since my body crapped out and as you found out, it all comes down to price. You simply cannot compete on price with the mail-order chain stores because even if you're buying a dozen guns at a time, you're not getting the same wholesale price that chain store like Cabela's gets when they buy 5,000+ guns at a time direct from the mfg. Even on used guns, you can't compete with the junk dealers at the gun shows or the on-line auction forums; they're the ones giving some little old lady at a yard sale $30 on a $300 gun and have no overhead to contend with so anything they make over that initial $30 is pure profit because they're not shelling out multiple thousands of dollars a year for insurance, utilities and all the other costs that go along with owning and operating a business.

Here's a great quote from Kirpi97:
Quote:
We do not have even one local seller who will to take the time or money to meet all the federal and state requirements to sell real black powder. In fact, we have only one shop in all of Oregon, that I am aware of, that sell black powder. So we have to get use to the substitutes. But the store owners frustration with the government wears off on the customer. If they don't carry the supplies, and supplies are hard to come by, it is hard to advance beyond the curious shopper.
Above is the perfect example of why the little guys cannot make it - those who have no idea what's involved with this business simply don't understand the "why's" of many things. Kirpr97, this is by no means an insult to you, just a little enlightenment to help you and other's understand the "why's".

First, the amount of actual dollar costs involved with being a black powder retailer is quite high just to obtain "permission" from the governments (yes, plural because it starts with the locals and if you get past them, then you can begin working on the state & fed's) The time-loss costs are extreme because every step along the way is a battle that eats up hours upon days upon weeks upon months ... unless a person is independently wealthy and doesn't need to be in business in the first place, most little shops simply cannot afford to loose the amount of time required to fight each step of the battle let alone risk loosing the actual monetary costs as well. If you do get all the ducks in a row, then you have the monetary costs of insurance which are already at insane levels for any business let alone one that is now going to stock "explosives". Not only is there a significant cost for the general liability but also in your own fire coverage as well as other coverage's that may be required by the state and local governments. - - Now, the question is: "Can that local dealer sell at least 5,000 pounds of black powder every year just cover the cost of having it in the store?" Question 2: "Are you willing to pay 20-40% or more in higher costs for everything else in that store in order to have the convenience of being able to buy black powder there?"

Like I said, I'm not trying to be nasty here, quite the opposite, this is just some FYI for those of you who have never owned and operated a business. Gun shows are great, good time to be had by all but they come at a very high cost to the dealers. First, you have the cost of a table that ranges on average anywhere from $70-$125 depending on the location of the show and the show promoter. In addition to the table, most promoters require the commercial vendors to carry a separate liability insurance policy for their tables at the show; depending on the level of coverage this can cost on average from $1,000 to $4,000 per year. Even if you only set-up one or two tables at a show, you have 2-3 days of preparation and set-up time before the show and another 2-3 days of clean-up time after the show. Then you have to add the travel, lodging, parking, food and other costs associated with doing the gun show. If you've got a storefront, you either have additional costs of hiring people to tend the store while you're at the show or loose the store business and possibly customers if you close it while you're at the gunshow. Back at the storefront, you have to consider that there is at least 8-10 hours per week devoted solely to required paperwork as well as cost & inventory management - that's 416-520 hours per year of cost & loss to the owner. When you commit to running a business, it's a 24/7/365 commitment, the work day doesn't start & stop with the store hours. When the doors close, the work continues not just in the store but also at home where you sit in front of the computer for hours on end trying to find better pricing and new products. You risk a lot of money on new products that may or may not be what they claim to be an if they're not, the cost and loss is on the business owner to return it and attempt to get a refund.

Now, there is a HUGE difference when you buy from a small dealer as opposed to a large retailer / chain store. Every item that comes into a small shop is inspected by the owner, if it comes in broken or damaged, the shop lays out the cost and time to get it replaced. When you mail-order from a big place, you get whatever is in the box someone happens to pull off the shelf and if there's something wrong, it's costing you time and money to send it back and wait for a refund or replacement that may or may not even happen. Are you then willing to invest $250+ to hire a lawyer to fight for a refund on a $270 gun?

You see, the majority of little mom & pop stores, even if they're selling mail-order, will do whatever they can to keep the customer's happy because every customer is important. You go to the big stores and they don't care if you're PO'ed or not because for every unhappy customer like you they loose, they sucker in a thousand more because their price is a few dollars lower. The mom & pop stores don't think that way, we are the ones who will take a $50 loss on something just to keep the customer happy so the customer keeps coming back; big retailer's could care less if you come back or not. It's us little guys who rely upon word-of-mouth advertising from satisfied customers and not suckering in replacement customers with fancy radio or TV ads.
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Old June 20, 2009, 06:52 PM   #23
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Thanks---our shop has little overhead. We do not carry real black powder because it is way too hard to meet the regulations, licenses etc verses what we can sell it for. In other words what something is worth is directly proportional to what the cost and effort is. We sold a navy arms today to a guy that was extatic. I charged him $189-never been fired!! I can do the Mom & Pop thing because I have a store with low rent--we can operate a real estate appraisal business on the other side--and I have no one to pay a salary to. I priced those colts pricy so folks will know we do have valuable guns along with our antiques. I can sell replicas just as cheap as you can order them. I was just wondering what those 2 colt's I talked about earlier are really worth.
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Old June 20, 2009, 09:55 PM   #24
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also, by word of mouth, a man brought in a broken sear spring off his cheap gun. He couldn't find anyone to help him but he came in to our shop. I pulled out one and showed him our work table. He put it in and grinned and said"what do I owe you?" "Nothing," i said. And he bought a bottle of ballestol, and some other stuff and said he had friends in this and was part of a renactment group! And was glad there was a blackpowder shop up and running. So------there you go
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Old June 21, 2009, 10:42 PM   #25
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Billy,

When it comes to the mass-production repro's, I don't keep a big inventory of new ones, most come in for repairs or custom grips. The local C&B market but it's growing as more people are getting exposed to the fun but it runs in cycles. I have a plus because I take trades & do repairs while most dealers are "sell only".

You're right, it is all about customer service no matter what business you're in. I built a couple flintlocks for a fellow and about a year later he called wanting to know if I could get him a particular short barrel C&B because none of the chain-stores had them in stock. It took me a few hours and dozens of phone calls to finally track one down. It came in sealed in the factory box and while the gun was fine, the grips were anything but quality. I couldn't send it out that way so I made a pair of Maple grips to replace the disgusting crap it came with and sent it off to the customer, no extra charge. He though the loose grips in the box were a joke until I told him that's what it came with. I took a big loss on that one but it was worth it because he's sent many more customers my way.

I missed the Colt discussion and I'd have stayed out of it anyway especially when it comes to price. I never thought anyone would shell out a small fortune for a well used & somewhat abused 1970's Japan made Tower repro until I saw someone hand $750 to the "sell only" dealer across the isle from me at a gunshow.
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