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View Poll Results: Does an Armed Citizen have a Moral/Ethical Duty to Retreat (complete safety)
Yep, at all times 30 13.89%
Nope, Never 92 42.59%
Yep, but only on the street, not in the Home/Business 63 29.17%
I'm not ansering because I dont want to seem either wimpy or bloodthirsty 15 6.94%
I'd rather have pic of you and Spiff iwearing spandex loincloths lard wrestling in a baby pool. 16 7.41%
Voters: 216. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 22, 2009, 10:16 AM   #326
easyG
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Okay here's a question for everyone who supports the notion that we should never take a life when it is not absolutely necessary....

Do you support the death penalty for certain imprisoned convicts?
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Old June 22, 2009, 10:27 AM   #327
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Do you support the death penalty for certain imprisoned convicts?
I assume the "certain imprisoned convicts" are ones who have received a death sentence from the court. In that case yes, but that is unrelated to castle doctrine. Castle doctrine is not a license to dispense capital punishment in the legal sense.

If you are just asking what types of crimes I would support death penalty for, I actually have an extensive list, but I don't want to stray down that path right now.
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Old June 22, 2009, 10:29 AM   #328
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Do you support the death penalty for certain imprisoned convicts?
There are some people that even from jail will continue to find ways to harass, intimidate and even kill. The only way you will ever stop them from being a drain on society is to either kill them or put them in Superman's Phantom Zone. Google Pee Wee Gaskins for example. He was finally executed for commiting murder while serving a life sentence for multiple murders. His known victims range somewher around 25 and his unknown victims could be another 25 if you believe him. Yes in these type cases (The Blind Sheik for example) i say fry them.
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Old June 22, 2009, 10:47 AM   #329
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The death penalty is not usually given to people stealing your VCR. If the argument is that the property criminal deserves to be executed for that specific crime, it is not a moral decision in my opinion.

The use of lethal force during a property crime, as someone in your house, is that they pose a threat to you, not because you are executing them as punishment for stealing your stuff.

We had several kids steal a sign from our lawn - while I wanted them caught and punished - they did not to be executed.
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Old June 22, 2009, 10:52 AM   #330
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Quote:
The death penalty is not usually given to people stealing your VCR.
Idk, antiques can be pretty valuable
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Old June 22, 2009, 11:00 AM   #331
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Good point GSU, course it would have to be someone really desperate to steal a VCR. Someone that desperate might be dangerous Glenn.

Also Glenn, make sure you don't put all your valuable in one place. Don't keep the betamax next to the 8-track player.
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Old June 22, 2009, 11:08 AM   #332
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Nope, big boy rules apply; for both the parties.
It doesn't really matter what someone else not in your shoes would do morally. In the end it will be a legal matter and that is the only opinion that matters.
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Old June 22, 2009, 11:15 AM   #333
Glenn E. Meyer
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I still have an expensive VCR and a box of tapes of good movies. However, the cost of all that is far less than the financial hit of shooting someone in the house to save them (as compared to me).

Just talking to the lawyer is going to run $5K. Wait, the guy is going after my 78's and turn table - bang, bang!

We once did a thread about would you shoot to save the Mona Lisa? You are a guard at the museum and a nutso is running towards it with a spray can. Do you open fire? Is that moral or should you try to tackle him?

The reason I mentioned VCR - is that in the old days, those were prime targets for burglars. Today it would be your laptop or IPhone.
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Old June 22, 2009, 11:17 AM   #334
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Quote:
Do you support the death penalty for certain imprisoned convicts?
No, I don't support the death penalty.
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Old June 22, 2009, 11:33 AM   #335
Tucker 1371
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Okay here's a question for everyone who supports the notion that we should never take a life when it is not absolutely necessary....

Do you support the death penalty for certain imprisoned convicts?
Punishment and self defense are two very different things. When you shoot an intruder in your home it is not to punish that person (at least it shouldn't be) but to defend your life.

When a judge hands out the death penalty and the penal system carries it out it is for punishment. This serves two purposes: 1) to remove a dangerous individual from society 2) to create a deterrent to others who would consider the same path. They have the authority to do this because society has appointed them to their positions and charged them with this task. YOU do NOT have that authority... but if you live in a free state you DO have the right to defend yourself.
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Old June 22, 2009, 12:40 PM   #336
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Life in prison without parole keeps one out of society.

If the death penalty were any kind of a deterrant, why are there thousands
on death row? They don't seem to deterred.

Now if tomorrow, every death row person were executed (electric bleachers) then maybe a deterrent would exist.

The penalty of death is for justice to be carried out based on the crime.

Some crimes warrant it. Others do not.

All this has nothing to do with duty to retreat.
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Old June 22, 2009, 12:57 PM   #337
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Here is another wrinkle.

It might even be deserving of it's own poll.

If you have a way to retreat during a home invasion, and have chosen to do so for reasons of your own, does it affect your decision to retreat if doing so would leave your pets at the mercy of the invader? If you could get out but could not take your dogs and/or cats would that cause you to stay and defend your home instead of retreat?
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Old June 22, 2009, 12:59 PM   #338
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If you could get out but could not take your dogs and/or cats would that cause you to stay and defend your home instead of retreat?
Too easy for me. Risk MY life, the life that is responsible for my wife and 2 kids, for a dog/cat? Not just no, HELL no.
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Old June 22, 2009, 01:00 PM   #339
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pets are not in the equation for me and home invasion.

my beagle will howl and then get under the bed.

i will not be taking focus off of intruders while retreating or not

to bother with animals. People come first.

I can get another beagle for $75.00 and give him a good life
for 13 years (current dog's age)
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Old June 22, 2009, 01:01 PM   #340
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Too easy for me. Risk MY life, the life that is responsible for my wife and 2 kids, for a dog/cat? Not just no, HELL no.
I probably should have answered my own question so I will take this chnce to do so.

I would see it totally differently. I would see it as "would I harm a human invader to protect my dog?" My answer would be "Hell, yes."

I like my dogs way more than most law abiding people I meet...much less criminals.
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Old June 22, 2009, 01:03 PM   #341
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so you shot and killed Mr so and so, why?

because I thought he was going to kill my cat.

really?
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Old June 22, 2009, 01:05 PM   #342
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so you shot and killed Mr so and so, why?

because I thought he was going to kill my cat.

really?
No, stop thinking like a victim. I shot Mr. criminal because he invaded my home in the middle of the night and presented a threat to me. I might have retreated if not for the fact I could not insure the safety of my pets if I did so. Therefore I stayed and legally defended my property.
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Old June 22, 2009, 01:08 PM   #343
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threat to you and yours (wife/kids), sure.

threat to fish or gerbil or dog?

My dog is a part of the family but he is a dog.

Not a child.

Child is first. Dog is not even a close second.

Dog is on his own in home invasion.

my actions and thoughts are based on the humans and their lives.
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Old June 22, 2009, 01:23 PM   #344
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No, I would not shoot someone to defend my pet. Much as I like them, I don't consider my pet to be worth risking my life. If you do, well then bully for you, I don't agree with your choice but I respect that you're following your belief.
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Old June 22, 2009, 01:26 PM   #345
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No, stop thinking like a victim. I shot Mr. criminal because he invaded my home in the middle of the night and presented a threat to me. I might have retreated if not for the fact I could not insure the safety of my pets if I did so. Therefore I stayed and legally defended my property.
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Old June 22, 2009, 01:34 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by stargazer65
No, I would not shoot someone to defend my pet. As a matter of fact, I would rather shoot my own pet for no good reason than shoot a human being for a good reason. Even if it's the worst criminal, it's just not in the same league to me.
No offense, and you are welcome to your own opinions, but anyone that would say that and mean it could never be a friend of mine. In fact I would not think very highly of them at all. I would never harm an innocent animal, mush less a loyal companion. I would definitely not place their well being below that of a criminal that has broken into my home or threatened my safety.

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Old June 22, 2009, 01:42 PM   #347
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I shot Mr. criminal because he invaded my home in the middle of the night and presented a threat to me
A reasonable response.

Quote:
I might have retreated if not for the fact I could not insure the safety of my pets if I did so
An irrational response that admits you had an alternative to deadly force, and chose the gun. Prosecutor is gonna rip you a new one.


Quote:
Therefore I stayed and legally defended my property.
Unless you stayed to defend your own, or another Human life, this one is also gonna get you standing reservations for the pen.
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Old June 22, 2009, 01:45 PM   #348
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An irrational response that admits you had an alternative to deadly force, and chose the gun. Prosecutor is gonna rip you a new one.
No, I have no legal responsibility to retreat from my home. The only reasons would be personal morality and I am not held to any litany regarding that decision.
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Unless you stayed to defend your own, or another Human life, this one is also gonna get you standing reservations for the pen.
Not even close to being true. Every year there are successful home defenses involving firearms where no charges are filed. There was a story on the news just last night about an old lady shooting an invader and a story a couple weeks ago where a man shot two people trying to steal his air conditioner. My own great uncle shot his daughters ex-husband for trespassing. Where are some gun owners getting this victim mindset that if you ever defend yourself you will be punished? s long as you do not exceed your legal rights you will be fine.
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Old June 22, 2009, 01:51 PM   #349
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No offense, and you are welcome to your own opinions, but anyone that would say that and mean it could never be a friend of mine. In fact I would not think very highly of them at all.
The above referring to post #344:

Edit: To clarify: I was merely illustrating in the above statement how highly I esteem human life above animal life. I was speaking metaphorically. It was a bad and confusing analogy, I removed it.

I can understand how it sounds harsh to you and some other people. I've had to put family pets to sleep before for terminal illness. I got over it. It would be hypocritical for me to say I highly esteem the life of a beast and then turn around and use it for food and clothing. Killing a person would probably haunt me for a long time, even under the most just circumstances.
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Old June 22, 2009, 01:52 PM   #350
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It's hard to clarify how I feel about that. Suffice to say, I could pobably blot killing a pet out of mind as being no different than hunting for food.
As a psychologist (ex that is) I would have a field day with anyone not able to make that distinction. In fact that is one of the indicators of serial killers.
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