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Old June 8, 2009, 01:58 PM   #26
Glenn E. Meyer
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Think about this - you will have to get an attorney for the shoot anyway - even if it is a 'good' one. Do you need to add extra billable hours to evaluate your first aid response or hire experts to defend you putting a tourniquet around his neck (being satirical here)?

Some places say you can't be sued or will reimburse in SD - but if the shoot is ambiguous and you do get charged and horrors, convicted - you just multiple your troubles and costs.
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Old June 8, 2009, 02:01 PM   #27
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I think the post by .22lr is about as clear as it gets, with one addition:

If I am concentrating on evaluating and treating the wounds of the down BG, I am not paying enough attention to the threat of accomplices.
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Old June 8, 2009, 02:01 PM   #28
wickedrider
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Even if there is still a concern for liability, I don't really care as I would rather save a mans life while protecting my own than sit around and worry about legal issues at that time.
The question that you pose is not really a legal one. It is a moral one. Those questions are resolved between you and God.

Obviously, there are serious concerns about civil liability should BG succumb to the injuries that you originally caused through your justifiable self defense. However, regardless whether you are, or not a medical professional treating an injured person, there is going to be a someone who tries in court to show that you caused the death of BG after your "Good Shoot". Thus, it comes down to a moral issue. Obviously, if you help the BG after the shoot, you would have to suffer through the stress of the scrutiny of others.
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Old June 8, 2009, 02:14 PM   #29
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That is an interesting question. Being in EMS in the great state of Colorado, I'm not required to provide assistance to injured people if I'm off duty. Thank goodness for that, I cant imagine treating anyone and everyone I come accross. I feel sorry for those states that force action for off duty EMS personel.

That being said, I feel a strong moral tug toward helping people in need. But it remains my choice as weather to act or not. If I had just shot someone, there is probably so much going through my head, I dont know if I would want to add keeping him alive to my responsibilities. Accidental shootings, you bet I'm gonna help you. If you deserved a double tap from my .45 then I may be less hesitant to help you.

Think about the BG situation, he thinks he is prolly gonna die, heck you just fired hot lead into his chest. That has got to hurt. What happens if he has a knife in his pocket and wants to take you with him? You kneel to help him and he shanks you in the gut. On the other hand, assuming my aid kit is available (ie: gloves for me, mask for him, pads and such to control bleeding) how could I stand there while he is dying, knowing full well I could help him.

A 911 call describing a shooting with a man down dispatches po po and EMS. So professional help is on the way for him, and response time is usually within five minutes in my area. However, EMS aint even going to pull on scene untill the po po have secured my gun, BG weapons, and any other weapons and BGs. Five minutes can turn to ten pretty quick.

Plus in court, you know the prosecuting attorney will bring up the point of how I am trained to save lives, and I should have helped the guy. This is a slipery slope.
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Old June 8, 2009, 02:17 PM   #30
KingEdward
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if my phone is on me, after there is no more threat, I'll call police

and/or medical help.

I will not touch a BG.

particulary one who is wounded or dying.

pros can do that if they like.

they will do more good than I if there's hope.
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Old June 8, 2009, 03:05 PM   #31
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I can't say I would give first aid to someone I'd been forced to shoot. I wouldn't feel safe, and I rarely have what I'd need to treat severe trauma on someone I don't know.
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Old June 8, 2009, 03:33 PM   #32
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"The cops (who respond in multiples to a shooting event) will not allow the paramedic to get close until they have secured the scene.

The paramedics (who are pledged to save lives) will not get close until the cops have secured the scene.

There's a reason for that."

pax

THANK YOU PAX!!! As a Paramedic I am NOT required to render help to anyone who is or has tried to hurt me. I have said this before in a thread just like this. The Police will secure the scene as best as they can. Then EMS will provide care.

Has anyone else, (general public), tried to help someone who is in shock? Who has just tried to kill you, your family or friends? I have. Ever have a BG, who is dying from a GSW to the chest, reaching for his 2nd gun to try and shoot you and the others around you? I have.

People in shock are combative and the "Fight or Flight" nervous system is kicking in. They will do anything and everything to fight you, kill you and get away. So my answer is still no. Even in my duties as a Tactical Medic my job is to make sure the Police Officers are okay first, the public second, and then the BG gets taken care of. Calling 911 is enough help for them, don't endanger yourself.
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Old June 8, 2009, 03:35 PM   #33
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I am a paramedic here in TX. If it came to a situation as described I WOULD NOT render aid to the attacker/individual that I had just shot.

I would call 911 and get police/ems on scene as quickly as possible.
If the individual was conscious and bleeding I would verbally instruct him to put direct pressure on the wound and be still as police and ems were on the way. IF I COULD DO SO SAFELY.

My first concern would be to maintain vigilance as the perpetrator may not be alone and I want to be easily identified when the police arrive. If I am "hands on" when the cops get there the situation could be misconstrued.

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Old June 8, 2009, 06:39 PM   #34
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If I need to defend myself against a stranger, my primary concern for my safety translates into
1) he might get back up and attack me
2) he might have buddies that I need to watch for.

I can't think of any circumstances where I could sacrifice my situational awareness to render first aid.
-----
On the other hand, if I expected to be jailed and convicted for defending myself (e.g. David Murray's case, and here ) because I lived in Jersey, Maryland, Illinois, etc., I might have a plan to preemptively prostrate myself before the jury.

Last edited by A_McDougal; June 8, 2009 at 06:46 PM.
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Old June 8, 2009, 07:13 PM   #35
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Quote:
Basically, if you are CC'ing and are forced to use your weapon in SD, would you treat the offender IF YOU COULD SAFELY DO SO? I suppose I mean this to be mostly a MATURE discussion of tactics to safely perform first aid after an SD shooting.
I'm not a paramedic or lawyer, but I've taken about 12 various first aid courses in the last 15 years (Boy Scout leader... be prepared and all that) from American Red Cross, American Heart Association, and National Safety Council.

One of the things that every instructor reiterates is that the scene must be safe before one tries to render aid. The only thing worse than one injured patient is two injured patients! Although these classes usually refer to scene safety in the context of environment (electrical, gas, liquid, etc) and not self-defense situations, I'm sure the principle applies.

For that reason alone, I would probably not render aid, other than to give verbal advice (such as directing them to lie down or apply self-pressure to a wound).
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Old June 8, 2009, 08:39 PM   #36
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Keltyke makes EXCELLENT point, if you are "working on him" and he dies, now YOU also have to PROVE that you DID NOT "finish him off". It is very hard to prove that one.

Also remember this, you will probably be in "shock" from just shooting someone. What kinds of substantial first aid thoughts do you really think you would be thinking at this time?

Best bet, call 911, STAY on the phone with them. If they hear him groaning you can bet your bottom dollar he is STILL dangerous. If not, he is pretending he is dead waiting for you to get close so he can "do you" for shooting him.
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Old June 8, 2009, 08:52 PM   #37
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I might do something such as tossing my over shirt and telling them to apply pressure to any wounds or suggesting they elevate their legs if something is close enough for them to use as a prop.

Past that I don't think so. Frankly if they had a weapon of some sort (which they would have to in order to be in that situation) tossing them a shirt might not be such a good idea as it could easily block your view of their hands.

I think the best thing you could do is to call 911, inform them that help is on the way, and keep a safe distance. Crowd control (keeping people away from me and the BG) would probably be #1 on the priority list followed by the 911 call.
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Old June 8, 2009, 09:00 PM   #38
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I keep a couple of TacPacks around the house (usually one in my range bag and another next to the power tools). They each contain a quickclot bandage and sterile gloves and some other goodies that are useful for trauma; they cost around $20 apiece and are a good supplement to a regular boo-boo first aid kit.

I wouldnt be applying anything to the intruder with my own 2 hands (proper gun control etc etc.), but I would be more than happy to let him do it himself. Hell, Ill even explain how. Wouldnt hurt my legal standing, and my concience would be extra clean. Anything involving me coming within striking distance would be out of the question though.
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Old June 8, 2009, 09:24 PM   #39
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As a prime example to what "pax" said:

Some years ago, a local paramedic crew responded (in an ambulance) to an EDP (Emotionally Disturbed Person) call. They arrived on scene, grabbed their gear, and walked towards the house. When they were about halfway between the house and the ambulance, the EDP ran out the front door - stark naked and swinging a 3' samurai sword. He proceeded to chase the paramedics around the ambulance until they could jump on the rear running board/bumper as the driver drove away. Since then, the LEOs always respond FIRST to an EDP call.
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Old June 8, 2009, 10:15 PM   #40
Shadi Khalil
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Quote:
Basically, if you are CC'ing and are forced to use your weapon in SD, would you treat the offender IF YOU COULD SAFELY DO SO?
If it could be done safetly I would without thinking about it.
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Old June 9, 2009, 12:19 AM   #41
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It is not a bad idea for everyone to be certified CPR. BUT if you are in Texas that obligates you to render aid. You can be held accountable for not if you have that little card in your wallet. Now all that applies to any kind of injuries on anyone. BUT AGAIN when I took my courses I never asked 'what if I shot the guy'. I have seen training videos where a police officer shot a man, assessed the situation, and then performed CPR until EMS arrived. Police officers go to the same CPR courses I go to.

I work security for a major metropolitan hospital. We carry. We are told we must render CPR on anyone needing it regardless of why. That is hospital policy. As far as state law goes I am not 100%.

Obviously your local state laws must be checked. Find out the facts. If you could be held liable for not rendering aid you need to know.

This thread made me realize I need to find out myself before I find myself in a situation where I have to make the decision.
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Old June 9, 2009, 12:35 AM   #42
cloud8a
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Okay I remember now. In Texas it is called "The Good Samaritan Law" you can be prosecuted for "Failing to stop and render aid." That applies even if you are not certified CPR as well as PROTECTS you if the aid you do render in a life or death situation may be interpreted as you causing further injury. Cases have been cited where people who were dying actually tried to sue a person giving CPR for breaking ribs and what not. This is why the law was passed in Texas.

I am doing this off the top of my head. I am going to find out how it applies to a SD situation.

Check the facts and do not take my word for it.
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Old June 9, 2009, 08:24 AM   #43
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Quote:
Okay I remember now. In Texas it is called "The Good Samaritan Law" you can be prosecuted for "Failing to stop and render aid." That applies even if you are not certified CPR as well as PROTECTS you if the aid you do render in a life or death situation may be interpreted as you causing further injury.
If I may play the devil's advocate...

I am not a lawyer (and I don't play one on TV), but I would think that the intent of this law would not apply in the case of administering first aid/CPR to a shooting victim in this case.

I think it was written so that if you should happen to be driving and come across a car accident with injuries, for example, and you administer first aid to the best of your abilities and that person dies anyway, you are protected. You did your best and at least you tried. The main thing is that there was no criminal intent involved in the accident. Even if you caused the accident through your own negligence, it was not your intention to harm someone and in the aftermath, you were just trying to help.

OTOH, in the case of a shooting, if you were the one who actually shot the other person, I would think the good samaritan rules get thrown out the window because you were the one who caused the injury in the first place. Even if it was a shooting in self defense (which has to be proven in a court of law), it was your intention to cause great bodily harm upon someone when you pointed your gun at someone and pulled the trigger. After all, death is the expected consequence of putting a bullet in someone.

Just like with the handcuff scenario, if you shoot someone, KEEP YOUR DISTANCE!

Scott
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Old June 9, 2009, 12:28 PM   #44
.22lr
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hrm...

Quote:
the EDP ran out the front door - stark naked and swinging a 3' samurai sword
Why is it when I hear that, the name "WildAlaska" pops into my head?

As for good Samaritan laws, you MIGHT be protected (recent California Supreme Court decision (Dec 08, I think) MIGHT change that). BUT:

1) Are you truly protected as you caused the wounds?
2) If they can't sue you for saving them wouldn't they just try to sue you for SHOOTING them?

These are questions, not arguments, I have no idea as to the legal answers and am curious.

The above does not change my position that I do not see how to safely render aid to someone I have shot in self defense. This extends to both violent attack and medical issues (disease, blood borne pathogens, other nasty stuff).

VR

Matt

Last edited by .22lr; June 9, 2009 at 12:29 PM. Reason: Particullary Poor Punctuation!
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Old June 9, 2009, 12:36 PM   #45
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Unless I am incorrectly informed... the Good Samaritan laws are not the ones that require you render aid. They are the ones that say you shall not be sued for the aid you did choose to render.

The laws requiring a LICENSE holding driver to render aid, do not require you to come into direct contact with bodily fluids or anything else dangerous to you. You may be required to stop and decide if there is anyone you feel you could benefit with your skills if it is safe to do so.
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Old June 9, 2009, 12:55 PM   #46
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I've seen some very good, mature, well-thought out responses.

I do think it is, in general, very difficult to determine whether or not it is "safe enough" to try and render first aid to someone who attacked you. In no situation would you be truly "safe", on that we all agree. Everything after that would a judgment call left up to the individual.

I care less about legal ramifications as I do my personal values and safety. If I can keep someone alive I would rather try to do that as opposed to being concerned about defending my actions after the fact. OTOH, I think there would be enough witnesses in any case where I tried to perform first aid to vouch that I did indeed try to do the right thing. I can't think of any scenario in which I could perform first aid without help from others, both in administering and in securing the scene. I know it's a LEOs job to "secure the scene" but I think we have a duty as human beings to step up and do what we see needs doing. If that includes searching a man and having help to cover from other threats, then so be it. There is probably a much greater chance that I would be in a situation that first aid couldn't be administered due to lack of help.

The bodily fluids, and protection against, POV is a very good one. I do carry a med kit with me, or at least in my car, so I could have this protection. I also like the idea of tossing supplies to the wounded (if concscious) and giving commands. Obviously they're not going to stop their own sucking chest wound, but pressure would help to slow bleeding.

Thanks for the ideas everyone!
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Old June 9, 2009, 01:02 PM   #47
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I was just reading through the thread and wondering how many people know how to administer first aid for a gunshot wound - especially since it's always possible that it could happen. (Or perhaps feel it's too much of a liability or too unlikely to make a difference to bother with?)

I'm a firm believer in Murphy's Law, so I'd be interested in learning or even training to deal with it.

Quote:
It is not a bad idea for everyone to be certified CPR. BUT if you are in Texas that obligates you to render aid. You can be held accountable for not if you have that little card in your wallet.
So here in Texas, perhaps formal training would have drawbacks?
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Old June 9, 2009, 01:57 PM   #48
21CFA
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Moot question.

If I've shot him/them, then he/they are dead. No doubt. Lay my weapon down and wait. Done it.
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Old June 9, 2009, 02:18 PM   #49
Glenn E. Meyer
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Let's not go off on posturing - there is not guarantee that the person will be dead. Plenty of folks have gotten head wounds or COM and survived with modern medicine. Unless you are suggesting a finishing off shot - and then you should go read the Pharmacist thread for that plan being a good one.
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Old June 9, 2009, 02:48 PM   #50
KingEdward
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some have written that I may likely need post shooting treatment for shock when medical attention arrives on scene after a SD situation.

I have experienced shock twice (once after bad auto accident, once after a near drowning experience).

Both times, I could not speak for several minutes and had a very cold sensation.

Not sure what may or may not set in after a shooting but as earlier stated, I choose not to touch a downed BG.
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