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Old June 8, 2009, 12:28 PM   #1
5whiskey
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Treating wounded in SD situation...

I'm from the mindset that I will do anything to preserve human life that I possibly can. Taking one doesn't feel all that great, but if it comes down to protecting myself or others I've already been forced to make my peace with that issue.

Basically, if you are CC'ing and are forced to use your weapon in SD, would you treat the offender IF YOU COULD SAFELY DO SO? I suppose I mean this to be mostly a MATURE discussion of tactics to safely perform first aid after an SD shooting.

It will be assumed that it was a good shoot, and the BG is still potentially dangerous. I wanted to post this in the "hand-cuff no-no" thread because this is one of the only situations I could see using handcuffs (or flexi-cuffs) with little concern for liability. Even if there is still a concern for liability, I don't really care as I would rather save a mans life while protecting my own than sit around and worry about legal issues at that time.

Thoughts? Intelligent discussion?
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Old June 8, 2009, 12:33 PM   #2
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Tresspassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.

I AM JUST KIDDING.

Some states' laws might actually require you to render first aid. I would, only if there was no longer any threat to me or others from the perpatrator. I think it would go a long way to provide a positive image of you, the victim of the crime, if the case went to a jury trial.
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Old June 8, 2009, 12:38 PM   #3
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I will provide PROFESSIONAL first aid... 911 will have the PROS immediately in route. If handcuffing a BG is not wise, than getting close to a wounded BG is not wise. I do not carry rubber gloves (the blue ones) nor the gizmo that keeps one safe to do mouth to mouth so I just can't risk contact with body fluids from a person of questionable and unknown lifestyle choices...
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Old June 8, 2009, 12:39 PM   #4
Brian Pfleuger
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I've said before that I would, with the following caveat:

I can do so safely. This means both that the BG is prevented from hurting me directly and also that I have the necessary disease related precautions available.
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Old June 8, 2009, 12:39 PM   #5
ZeSpectre
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Quote:
Basically, if you are CC'ing and are forced to use your weapon in SD, would you treat the offender IF YOU COULD SAFELY DO SO? I suppose I mean this to be mostly a MATURE discussion of tactics to safely perform first aid after an SD shooting.
I have spent some real skull-sweat pondering this same question and of course there could be exceptions but on the whole if I had felt that someone was such a threat as to require lethal force to stop them, then there is no way in hell I'm going anywhere within arms reach of them until the Calvary shows up and then THEY can deal with it.

If said person expires in the meanwhile I'll probably feel badly about it, but that doesn't change the fact that said person created their own situation by their aggression.
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Old June 8, 2009, 12:39 PM   #6
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If I was sure that I could do first aid safely I would. But, there's the problem of not knowing weather or not it really is safe to get within arms reach of somebody who just tried to hurt you and who is probably more than a little ticked that you just shot him if he's still alive.

I would tell the 911 person that an ambulance was needed even if it was abundantly clear that the BG was dead. If nothing else it at least shows that you weren't bloodthirsty and had the decency to try and get him some help should any question of the necessity of the shooting arise.

All things considered I wold probably do as much as I could for first aid if it was clear that the BG was not a threat and pass it off to the paramedics asap.
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Old June 8, 2009, 12:46 PM   #7
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They will lay there and bleed until the paramedics and police come. I'm not an emergency medical technician.

I'm pretty sure when a Law Enforcement Officer shoots someone they call EMS and don't start administering first aid?
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Old June 8, 2009, 12:47 PM   #8
.22lr
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Unfortunatly, no

I'll restate my understanding of your post so that I can make sure that I read it correctly.

1) The person who is wounded has just attempted to kill/harm me.
2) The nature of the attack was of such a magnitude that I felt the need to use deadly force.

If the above two are true, then I could not treat the wounded individual.

My reasoning

1) The individual is dangerous (based on the fact that his/her actions led me to fear for my life).
2) The individual is desperate (fear of dying and fear or arrest)
3) The individual may be "playing possum" or playing dead.

All of which flies in the face of one of your conditions:
Quote:
IF YOU COULD SAFELY DO SO?
But how could you, after a violent encounter, KNOW that it was safe?

Would I want to help the person who was hurt? YES. But not if I cannot be 100% sure that I am not exposing myself to danger, which I would almost certainly would be doing.

VR

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Old June 8, 2009, 12:48 PM   #9
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I'm thinking I would get some serious back-up from anyone available that would help to help restrain the guy while he could be tied up and searched. Then perform first-aid. This is just a possibility, but it may not always be an option.

I understand that there aren't always others around to help, or that would help, but it's just a thought of what could occur. It would also depend on the situation... ie is the guys hands visible? Where was he hit, ie is it a life threatening wound? If not then he can sit there staring at my pistol or he can run away. Is he conscious? Does he still have a weapon in his hand or was it dropped?

Just asking for thoughts on the topic, without arguing semantics.

Quote:
1) The individual is dangerous (based on the fact that his/her actions led me to fear for my life).
2) The individual is desperate (fear of dying and fear or arrest)
3) The individual may be "playing possum" or playing dead.
Good points, but Safe is a relative term. Obviously there is no 100% safe option in this scenario. I guess that boils it down to "given the totality of circumstance, would you treat someone if you had enough reason to believe the chance of saving his life trumped the possible threat he still may present". Is that worded better?

Last edited by 5whiskey; June 8, 2009 at 12:55 PM.
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Old June 8, 2009, 12:53 PM   #10
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5W, From a thread we just had regarding cuffing the BG wounded or not, you could be accused of exacerbating the injuries to the offender... Bugger for them, huh...
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Old June 8, 2009, 12:56 PM   #11
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To do so would be at your own peril, but would show a "good faith" effort at thrying to render aid if the BG later dies and there is a suit for wrongful death. Immediately call 911 and ask for police and EMS!

Excellent question, BTW!
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Old June 8, 2009, 12:57 PM   #12
.22lr
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Semantics

I realize that you think I'm splitting hairs, however all I did was give you my reasoning.

This person just tried to harm / kill me.
To perform first aid I must come into close contact.
At close contact this person could harm me.

Therefore I will not render aid because the person has demonstrated themselves to be dangerous.

There is no such thing as a "safe" wounded assailant.

Last edited by .22lr; June 8, 2009 at 12:59 PM. Reason: fingers faster than brain... Again!
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Old June 8, 2009, 12:58 PM   #13
.22lr
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911

Obviously I would render aid by calling 911 and requesting police and ambulance as I was just attacked.
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Old June 8, 2009, 01:00 PM   #14
5whiskey
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Quote:
I realize that you think I'm splitting hairs, however all I did was give you my reasoning.

This person just tried to harm / kill me.
To person first aid I must come into close contact.
At close contact this person could harm me.

Therefore I will not render aid because the person has demonstrated themselves to be dangerous.

There is no such thing as a "safe" wounded assailant.
Eh... you actually made a very valid point .22lr. Maybe I came down a little harsh with the semantics word. Sorry if I came across as a jerk
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Old June 8, 2009, 01:00 PM   #15
chemgirlie
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Quote:
you could be accused of exacerbating the injuries to the offender
Most places have some degree of good Samaritan laws. Unless you are a doctor/EMT/nurse/etc you won't be charged in most jurisdictions if you try to help and don't do anything out of your scope of abilities (no doing surgery on your living room floor, but CPR is okay).

If you screw up, say you break his xiphoid process off while trying to do CPR, and cause him to die as a result you probably won't be charged because you were trying to help.
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Old June 8, 2009, 01:02 PM   #16
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The cops (who respond in multiples to a shooting event) will not allow the paramedic to get close until they have secured the scene.

The paramedics (who are pledged to save lives) will not get close until the cops have secured the scene.

There's a reason for that.

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Old June 8, 2009, 01:06 PM   #17
Keltyke
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Quote:
Basically, if you are CC'ing and are forced to use your weapon in SD, would you treat the offender IF YOU COULD SAFELY DO SO?
You cannot SAFELY do so - LEGALLY. Think about it. You shoot someone. You render first aid. He dies anyway. The prosecution's accusation will be - you finished him off. You're now up for Murder 2. Way out? Could never happen? Don't bet your freedom on it. If you make one little mistake in his treatment and/or one little thing goes wrong - you're in trouble.

The best thing you can do along that line is try to preserve the scene/evidence. Let others render first aid, if they so desire. At that point, if your phone takes video, you might want to start filming what's being done to him.
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Old June 8, 2009, 01:09 PM   #18
.22lr
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Quote:
Eh... you actually made a very valid point .22lr. Maybe I came down a little harsh with the semantics word. Sorry if I came across as a jerk
No apology necessary Sir/Madam (can't guess from the screen name).

If it was possible to KNOW it was safe, I'd doubt many would not render aid.

Switching gears.

As to what it would look like to a jury:
1) You felt it necessary to use deadly force (in this case the discharge of a firearm) because of the imminent danger of death or grave personal injury.
2) You then felt so safe as to render aid to the person you injured (Presumably only to stop the threat they posed to you).

I would think (I'm an engineer, not a lawyer) that the above shows that either:

-You were never in fear for your life as you felt so comfortable that you came into physical contact with the other person

-The shooting was accidental and there was no aggressive behavior on the part of the other person.

Call 911, let the police secure and the paramedics treat, your life is terrible enough at that point.

VR

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Old June 8, 2009, 01:11 PM   #19
5whiskey
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Quote:
You cannot SAFELY do so - LEGALLY. Think about it. You shoot someone. You render first aid. He dies anyway. The prosecution's accusation will be - you finished him off. You're now up for Murder 2. Way out? Could never happen? Don't bet your freedom on it. If you make one little mistake in his treatment and/or one little thing goes wrong - you're in trouble.
While I don't doubt that in this insane litigous society some lame-brained defense attorney out there would argue this angle, I tend to make life and death decisions based on the gravity of life and death, not "Will this look good in court?".

Based on the gravity of life and death DOES include the question as to whether there is a reasonably safe way to treat the wounded attacker. Everyone has brought up serious safety concerns and that are excellent points.
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Old June 8, 2009, 01:14 PM   #20
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No one really answered Brent's concern - who has the stuff to keep them safe from bodily fluids - disinfectants, gels, masks, etc. Do you want to have your bare hands applying pressure to a bleeding wound on an unknown?

Wait for help in an SD situation.
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Old June 8, 2009, 01:38 PM   #21
Hank D.
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What would you do If ????
This is one of the questions that you will never know how you will react until the time comes!!!. Just how many will not be able to pull the trigger? How many will ponder and think what will happen If I pull the trigger, Time lost! As much as some kids that play to many of the to real video games want to see what it Is really like to kill some one, sick but true! Any one that has been there done that will be the first to tell you it's not fun and games as I'm sure most of you know. It comes down to what we were told In USMC boot camp, " Kill or be killed " and that is just what It has to come to, if anything less and you will be in deep S--T. As It was so well stated here before me, call 911 and If any others by standers are hurt, by all means help them and don't ever go near a wounded animal.Never! I just hope all of you never have to find out, but this Is a very good question and should be ask over and over at all training classes.
Sorry for the bad spelling, not my thing, Semper FI to all always, Hank D.
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Old June 8, 2009, 01:44 PM   #22
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No I wouldn't because I am not the police or a paremedic,So I have no experience in a gun shot wound.As brent also pointed out I dont carry Blue gloves around with me and its risky with bodily fluids blood transfer.


Also the fact the perp may have another weapon on hand such as a knife or a another gun,I would just be putting my self back at risk being to close to the perp.He or she alread put my live and or other civilians lifes in danger there for he or she is unpredicatble.
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Old June 8, 2009, 01:48 PM   #23
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Although the "good samaritan" laws might give you some protection in a criminal case, anything is fair game in a civil suit. As has been pointed out numerous times before, some castle laws state that if the homeowner is found to be justified in using lethal force, then the "victims" family can not file a civil suit.

On the other hand, shooting someone outside of your home is a completely different story. After all, you just shot and killed some mother's innocent little baby boy who would never commit such a crime if society hadn't made him a victim and forced him into that situation and now you will have to pay.

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Old June 8, 2009, 01:55 PM   #24
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I'm not proof positive, but I'm almost certain that good samaritan laws protect from civil suits as well.
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Old June 8, 2009, 01:56 PM   #25
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But if the perp gets tied up to protect the aid giver, all them GS laws are likely nullified...
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