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Old June 6, 2009, 03:24 PM   #1
Conn. Trooper
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Required training for nationwide CCW

What would you guys think should be required as far as a license/permit and training in order to get a nationwide ccw if one existed? I am not sure where I would start, I never had a permit, I was a cop when I was 18 and have been a LEO my entire adult life. I do know that on the rare chance I go to a public range I usually see more then one person that scares the hell out of me with their shooting and safety skills ( or lack of shooting and and safety skills) . Please don't turn this into a "Cops are all idiots about guns and I shoot better than all cops, etc." argument. What would you think is acceptable as far as training and licensing in order to get a CCW good anywhere in the US?

I think a fairly reasonable class in safety, carrying, and shooting your handguns, along with a background check, would be acceptable. Maybe a photo ID for the CCW permit itself?

Thoughts?
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Old June 6, 2009, 03:38 PM   #2
AZ Med18
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I would say since its a right. Really nothing. It should be that non is needed.

Back to reality. Something like the test for a drivers license at max...

Simple test then a small range shoot.
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Old June 6, 2009, 03:48 PM   #3
Glenn E. Meyer
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This is an interesting proposal as it seems to have the promise of expand carry across the country, so some thoughts:

1. Does a test up the standards for states that don't have them. There really doesn't seem to be a difference in shooting behavior between test and nontest states - but I'm not sure how intense the investigation has been. The numbers of CCW screw ups are small and while some are failures of training - I don't know if the one day class is really tactically up to speed.

2. The 10 not shall issue states will have a fit - since they are big ones like IL, CA and NY - do you want to listen to Finestein and Schumaer for example frothing at the mouth?

3. A national standard can be easily upped and national where to carry regs put in. I can see the sob sisters on the national level forbidding movie, church and mall carry - all for the children. And then demanding insurance, etc.

4. If states would grant reciprocity more easily that would be good. Some constitutional expert here can state if licenses can be forced to be recognized by other states. That is fun because the antis of NYC who make it hell to get a permit would have to allow all the fun TX guys like me to carry.

5. If you do have nationally mandated reciprocity, there's a double edged sword - again for all you Constitution buffs and this has been stated - then will all states be forced to recognize the gay marriages in the states that have such - thus the revenge of the blue on the red for the red on the blue. Haha.

I've always argued the moral position that if you do carry and talk the talk - you will stop crime and rampages and the UN - you need to train. I have that fight with friends who carry on about carry on campus but don't train. But they see themselves as Captain America in a high intensity gun fight.
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Old June 6, 2009, 04:30 PM   #4
Brian Pfleuger
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I support a test to verify US citizenship and non-felon status. Period, end of sentence.

Unless and until someone can show that lack of training is causing a problem then there is no need.
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Old June 6, 2009, 04:36 PM   #5
Glenn E. Meyer
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In the sense that a lack of training only causes themselves to come to ill (meaning they screw up and get hurt themselves), I agree about legally mandate training.

Empirically, if we saw permit and licenses types causing others to be hurt, then I might require training but we haven't seen that yet. We've just seen them getting themselves into trouble.
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Old June 6, 2009, 10:05 PM   #6
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I was involved in a identical thread on another forum. I had my mind changed with reasoned posts. No training should be required but, should be taken. Because, the level training necessary would be subjective and be open to "funny business"
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Old June 6, 2009, 10:16 PM   #7
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No mandated training. The permit system should die. Once you have to ask permission to exercise a right, it is no longer a right. Period.
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Old June 6, 2009, 11:44 PM   #8
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Whatever the current standards are in the state of issue. Like a drivers
license. We don't need a "nationwide permit", just the same recognition
as drivers licenses.
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Old June 7, 2009, 08:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
I think a fairly reasonable class in safety, carrying, and shooting your handguns, along with a background check, would be acceptable. Maybe a photo ID for the CCW permit itself?
I don't have an issue with this type of testing. It's very similar to the method that Kentucky uses.

However, the testing's goal should not be to elimate people from CCW, but to educate them on CCW while giving them basic gun safety enroute to getting their permit. In other words, everyone should "pass" the course while walking away with some basic training and knowledge of the CCW laws.
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Old June 7, 2009, 08:38 AM   #10
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IMO we don't need a Federal permit or document with all the associated paperwork and bureaucracy. We need reciprocity where all states recognize another states permits - just as all states recognize another states drivers license.
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Old June 7, 2009, 08:43 AM   #11
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I'm not crazy about anything that blurs the state lines. It's a few more steps down a road I don't want to go.
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Old June 7, 2009, 08:44 AM   #12
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JWT just hit the nail on the head.
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Old June 7, 2009, 08:51 AM   #13
Bartholomew Roberts
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Well for starters, I don't see any basis for the federal government to issue or regulate concealed carry in the states. If the federal government can grant it, then the feds can also take it away (as they have demonstrated numerous times on other subjects). As a whole, I think RKBA is better off if it remains regulated by the states.

If the federal government were to pass such a bill, then the training would have to be objective and at a minimum, no more difficult than what law enforcement officers were required to meet in similar federal standards.

My ideal would be no training requirement at all. My basis for this belief is that since we have started keeping records of death and injuries by accidental gunshot wounds, the numbers are at an all-time low. Out of 300 million firearms and somewhere between 44-80 million gun owners, there are less than 1,000 accidental gunshot deaths every year. An even smaller percentage involve CCW. Given the potential for the abuse of training requirements at the hands of the government (especially the current one) and the almost non-existent penalty of no training, I favor no training at all.

Having said that, if you are a responsible adult who is serious about your personal safety, you already understand that even some of the more demanding shall-issue state's training requirements are a joke. People who are legally blind can pass the state requirements in Texas, which include a shooting qualification (and the state requirements here were modeled on law enforcement standards if that makes you feel better).

People who are serious will go out and spend the additional money to get quality personal instruction on that issue. People who aren't, will not; but that doesn't mean that I think a 69yr old grandmother who doesn't want to spend $2,000.00 and three days standing on the range shouldn't be legally allowed to carry a pistol for her protection.
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Old June 7, 2009, 08:55 AM   #14
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I don't like the idea, but at the same time I do believe people need to be more knowledgeable and that doesn't come by taking a 4 hour CCL class where they speed talk their way through laws, rules, regulation and revolver operates like this, simi-auto like this.

At my CC class the shooting portion took place at about 15'. There was a lady who's first mag didn't even hit the man sized paper target. We had two people who continually tried to put their thumb or grip behind the slide. Personally I thought letting it bite them once would help them remember but the instructor didn't think that would be a good idea...

Perhaps it could be a two step process. You take the class, and then are required to do X amount of range time before you can submit your application. You could be given a booklet at the class that has places to record where, when, how long, and a place for your signature and a person of authority at the range/class/police officer, etc, wherever you are doing your range time.

I don't think there is a simple or good solution. At the moment I just shudder at how many people out there are carrying without a clue about gun safety and without an iota of skill in actually hitting their target.
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Old June 7, 2009, 09:12 AM   #15
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Trooper, I too shudder. I saw some of the blue haired group coming in to the local DMV a few years ago to pick up their CC permits. They had already finished their "training". Some of these folks were using canes. I guess it was a 'special' class since they all appeared to be 70+.

However, it is their right to carry. Actually I'm much more concerned about driving near them than I am about them accidentally shooting me. And......FWIW driving is not a right... it's a privalege. We don't do any kind of periodic re-testing for driving (and I think we should!) so any intensive training that is imposed just to exercise a right(CCW)I would object to.
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Old June 7, 2009, 10:13 AM   #16
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People who carry should take the time to practice and learn how to use their weapon. But remember, its not just citizens you have to worry about. I remember viewing a Traffic Stop Video where 2 troopers opened up on 2 suspects, both firing in excess of 30 rounds, never hit anyone.

I tell everyone you must practice, practice and more practice. But, I do not want any government, local, state or federal involved. The permit system is unconstitutional IMO. A right is a right. One does not need permission to exercise it.
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Old June 7, 2009, 10:56 AM   #17
Glenn E. Meyer
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This might be tangential - but I think instructors could have a market for the older folk on responsible gun use and reasonable tactics for them.

I know that around here, courses for women are springing up. It should be easy to do this for older folk.
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Old June 7, 2009, 11:44 AM   #18
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No mandate other than what your State requires. Additional training, or lack thereof, is a personal responsibility.
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Old June 7, 2009, 12:59 PM   #19
AZ Med18
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You don't have to take a class to attend the religion of your choice, speak your mind (even if we don't want to hear it), and other rights that we have.

Is the second amendment the only one that gets a permit/certificate/license?
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Old June 7, 2009, 01:20 PM   #20
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Required Training for CCW permit..

I agree with some.. This is a right, not a privilege.. And less control is better.. I am one of those "blue hairs" (64) that has a carry permit.. and I know how and when to use my weapon.. I only pray I NEVER have to. Even so, I still think some training is really needed on how and when to even let others know you are armed. I would hate to see some one get shot during a simple dispute, hot head traffic or.... So there should be some clear cut training of some type on the responsibilities of carrying. I now only carry when camping, pack backing or hiking and traveling, or going to the range (weekly) I don't carry daily any more. But I did for over 40yrs..
Training is good but shouldn't be a pass or fail but as one said, should be educating.
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Old June 7, 2009, 01:53 PM   #21
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Agree with JWT.

Federally mandated reciprocity or federally issued CCW could take the manner of use and issue out of state's hands. Let's not do that. I personally don't want Schumer, Lautenberg, Feinstein types involved in the circumstances of issue of my license, thank you. At least I have the option, inconvenient though it may be, to move to another state where I believe the gun laws are more favorable. Not that I would, though. Georgia is fine.
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Old June 7, 2009, 02:05 PM   #22
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Do you seriously want Obama to choose who gets to carry nationwide?
Or that New York City, Chicago or San Franciso would allow it?
Leave it to the States.

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Old June 7, 2009, 02:09 PM   #23
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This topic is going the way of the last one.

I was in favor of some training prior to issuance of a CCW, until I heard the arguements against.

No one with an iota of common sense advocates using a tool without instruction in it's proper use. However, the MO of the anti's is "reasonable" regulation. what's reasonable to one is onerous to another. Jeez, it was a major controversy here whether or not to carry an extra magazine.


The only requirement I would think is apropos is no violent criminal history and maybe a note from your doctor saying you are in sound mind.
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Old June 7, 2009, 02:40 PM   #24
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Actually the shooting I think you are referring to happened in Ohio between the Kehoe brothers an Ohio Highway Patrolman and a Deputy Sheriff. The Deputy is the only LEO shooting and actually hits Kehoe several times, he is wearing body armor and still runs away.

I agree that training requirements can be used as a tool to take away the right to carry, however what would be acceptable? In a perfect world there would be no need to discuss this, a right is a right. However, we don't live there. What would be a good minimum of training or licensing for nationwide reciprocity? The training standards as they stand scare the hell out of me. Lots of people that carry guns everyday scare the hell out of me. What would be a good way to approach this? A state level? Federal? Have the NRA spearhead the effort?
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Old June 7, 2009, 04:41 PM   #25
Waitone
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Has the lack of extended or standardized training been shown to contribute to an increase in accidental shooting? In other words, if there is no problem why should government throw another requirement on those who want a CCH? I could easily support a voluntary system whereby those who train in CCH according to state law would impose a prereq requirement of an NRA beginners class. Again, voluntary. I am personally not a big fan of a national CCH law because it give our statists just one more means of interfering with constitutionally protected rights.
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