The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 6, 2009, 10:54 AM   #26
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 8,034
Quote:
And you might very well be facing a murder charge. You shoot to stop the threat, not to kiill. If he's down, has dropped his weapon and is writhing in agony - and you continue shooting until he's "completely motionless" - well, I'll visit you in jail. In fact, I believe there was an incident like this recently and the jury crucified the shooter.
If faced with defending against an intruder in my house - I shoot to kill. Rappid succession of controled bursts is the best way to accomplish this. That's how I train, and I don't intend to change a thing.

Quote:
I don't choose my carry caliber based on cost. I choose it based on what works best for defense of my life.
I consider cost in choosing my carry caliber because I put thousands and thoushands of rounds in the gun I intend to use as my primary defensive weapon. Whenever I go shooting, even if it's to try out a new pistol that I purchase or what have you, the last thing I do before leaving is put at least 100 rounds through my Glock 17, which is my primary defensive weapon.
Skans is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 11:20 AM   #27
Sarge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2002
Location: MO
Posts: 4,911
I like the .40 myself. If my uses of the gun were 90% targets and 10% defense, I'd probably side with the 9mm. Federal's 9BPLE gets it up into light-bullet .357 Mag country.
__________________
I'm inclined to think if a man hasn't gotten his point across in 4912 attempts, 4913 probably isn't going to do it.
Sarge is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 11:30 AM   #28
TheshooterG21
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 5, 2009
Posts: 10
Thanks for all the responses ill probably go with the 9mm.Cause i already have a 40sw so i could have a variety.I use federal,Winchester and cor-bon sometimes ammo for 9mm.Does anybody know any other good ammo,remington,hornady,extreme shock,wolf etc.Because i havent messed with those brands in 9mm.
TheshooterG21 is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 11:30 AM   #29
Ricky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2008
Location: N.California
Posts: 408
cost

I just looked at Cabela's for bulk wolf ammo. 500 rounds 9mm, $108.00, 500 rounds .40 $140.00, that's .21 vs .26 per round, not a huge difference. By the way, Midway currently has Wolf .40 in bulk but not 9MM
Ricky is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 11:35 AM   #30
Winterhawk56
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 9, 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 221
I my mind the .40 Smith is FAR better than the 9MM. Just because the police use the 9mm does not make it a great self defence round. The FBI use the .40 and most departments are slowly going away from the 9mm.

My Entire career in the Military I carried a .45. First the 1911 then the HK SOCOM. I now (after I retired from the military) carry one of three guns, .45 Colt, 40 Sig or .357 Smith.

Balistically the .40 Smith offers more which has been documented with gel test and do the math ( velocity squared divided by 450400 times mass (bullet weight) will give you muzzle energy.

We could go on for ever but in the Military during desert storm the 9mm SUCKED! It usually went right through the intended target and took more then 3 rounds to fully stop the intended target.

Again my opinion and we all have them
Winterhawk56 is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 11:39 AM   #31
Ricky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2008
Location: N.California
Posts: 408
9mm vs. .40

Shooter,
Having variety is one way to go, the other way to look at it is you already have a .40, you can buy one caliber and shoot it from either gun.

I've been considering getting a baby Glock, Mod 26 or 27. Since I already have a model 22 (.40) I've decided to go with the model 27. I can use the mags from my mod 22, one caliber, no mix up. I'm not recoil shy so I don't think that will be a factor.
And to look at the balistic gelatin test previously posted, 9mm does have a smaller would channel. I like the 180 grain .40
Ricky is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 11:48 AM   #32
MuthaGoose
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2005
Posts: 130


Is it just me, or does it look like there is no appreciable difference in penetration and expansion between the 9mm 124 grain and the .40 165 grain. Also, the 147 grain 9mm and the 180 grain .40 look virtually identical.
MuthaGoose is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 11:50 AM   #33
Ricky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2008
Location: N.California
Posts: 408
consider the case of the Oklahoma pharmacist

If he had used a bigger gun ( it was reported to be a .380) The perp that he shot in the head would have been dead on the first shot. There would have been no need to go back and shoot him again and the pharmacist wouldn't be in trouble.
If you have to keep shooting after the BG is down a jury may not look at it as self defense. Use enough gun, practice double taps.
Ricky is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 11:50 AM   #34
Keltyke
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Posts: 2,933
Shooter, I looked at a lot of ballistics tests, and fired several different brands in my 9mm guns. I settled on the Corbon 115 gr. DPX +p. Good round for SD and shoots well with me and my guns. Not the cheapest, but IMO, the best.
Keltyke is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 11:51 AM   #35
Keltyke
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Posts: 2,933
Quote:
no appreciable difference in penetration and expansion between the 9mm 124 grain and the .40 165 grain. Also, the 147 grain 9mm and the 180 grain .40 look virtually identical.
Exactly my point, Goose.
Keltyke is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 11:53 AM   #36
Ricky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2008
Location: N.California
Posts: 408
Balistic gel

Is it just me, or does it look like there is no appreciable difference in penetration and expansion between the 9mm 124 grain and the .40 165 grain. Also, the 147 grain 9mm and the 180 grain .40 look virtually identical.

Really? Are you sure you aren't looking at the .357 sig vs .40?
Penetration and expansion are similar but there is a BIG difference in the wound channel between the 9 and all of the others.

Last edited by Ricky; June 6, 2009 at 01:24 PM.
Ricky is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 12:20 PM   #37
christcorp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2007
Location: Cheyenne, Wyoming
Posts: 1,107
I've got quite a few friends in the Law Enforcement world. From city police, to sheriffs, to state police, to Boarder patrol and other federal agencies. We ALL respect any caliber that a person can shoot accurately. But we've also had an on-going teasing toward each other when it came to what they carried. Basically;

The new guy/gal who is young and doesn't have the experience: Glock 17 9mm 17 rounds.

The guy/gal somewhat experienced and accurate with their shooting: S&W M&P 40cal 15 rounds

The guy/gal who is experienced and hit's what they aim at, Sig P220 Combat 45cal 10 rounds

It was always in fun. I do still agree with them that whatever round you can hit accurately at 50 feet (LE/Mil/etc) 25 feet (Defensive) is what you should be using. If it's 9mm, 40, 10, 45acp, 357mag, 38spl, whatever.
christcorp is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 03:48 PM   #38
TheshooterG21
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 5, 2009
Posts: 10
I think like ricky said the bg would be more severly wounded.But the 9mm travels at a higher velocity because its weighs less so therefore it would hit the bg faster and also be able to come back quicker for another shot,less recoil.And can you put +p in a sig p229? Thanks
TheshooterG21 is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 05:08 PM   #39
MuthaGoose
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2005
Posts: 130
Quote:
Penetration and expansion are similar but there is a BIG difference in the wound channel between the 9 and all of the others.
It may look that way, but IIRC that's only the temporary cavity (the red 'bursty' part) that gives that effect. The permanent cavity tissue damage (the dark red 'streaks') is more or less the same for all calibers. As far as "stopping power" goes, it's the permanent damage that counts.
MuthaGoose is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 05:08 PM   #40
Ricky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2008
Location: N.California
Posts: 408
Wow

I guess I'm just not fast enough to truly appreciate the difference in the time it takes for a 9mm or a .40 or even a big old slow .45 to get to the target.

As far as follow up shots go, I practice double taps and 2 center mass and 1 to the head with my .40. If I really wanted to get faster follow up shots I'd use my Buckmark .22 Perhaps with a smaller caliber you need more and faster follow ups. I think I'd rather make fewer but bigger holes.
Ricky is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 05:17 PM   #41
Ricky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2008
Location: N.California
Posts: 408
Wow

"It may look that way, but IIRC that's only the temporary cavity (the red 'bursty' part) that gives that effect. The permanent cavity tissue damage (the dark red 'streaks') is more or less the same for all calibers. As far as "stopping power" goes, it's the permanent damage that counts."

I beg to differ with you. I've killed a few deer with a few different rifles. There is a big difference in damage done by different calibers. Penetration is not everything. The damage done on the way through is key. That's why we use hollow points in handguns.

That big wound cavity results in the muscle and organs turning to jello. (really, looks just like red jello)

Last edited by Ricky; June 6, 2009 at 05:41 PM.
Ricky is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 05:43 PM   #42
Dabull
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 374
Quote:
It may look that way, but IIRC that's only the temporary cavity (the red 'bursty' part) that gives that effect. The permanent cavity tissue damage (the dark red 'streaks') is more or less the same for all calibers. As far as "stopping power" goes, it's the permanent damage that counts.
A temporary cavity is just that...a temporary hole. That does not mean the formation of the temporary cavity did not cause any damage to the BG. When the temporary cavity is formed...things stretch, tear, and bleed.

Consider car crash victims who walk away with no obvious signs of trauma...only to bleed to death internally from organs that were jostled so forcefully during impact that they tore away from their connective tissues.
__________________
"Its better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it." -- Clarence Worley in True Romance
Dabull is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 06:08 PM   #43
Ricky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2008
Location: N.California
Posts: 408
damage

I once killed a deer at about 450 yards with a 7mm Rem Mag shooting a 150 grain bullet. The bullet exploded the lungs. It stopped inside of the far shoulder. The deer flipped over backwards and slid down the hill a little. I watched him through my scope to see if I needed a follow up shot. He never flinched, apparently dead before he hit the ground. When I skinned him I found that the far shoulder was completely destroyed. The muscle was about 40% jello and pretty much seperated from the bone. This was not in the wound channel, the bullet didn't go that far. If the bullet had gone through it wouldn't have dumped all of energy inside the body and wouldn't have done that kind of damage.
Ricky is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 06:19 PM   #44
MuthaGoose
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2005
Posts: 130
Quote:
I beg to differ with you. I've killed a few deer with a few different rifles. There is a big difference in damage done by different calibers. Penetration is not everything. The damage done on the way through is key. That's why we use hollow points in handguns.

That big wound cavity results in the muscle and organs turning to jello. (really, looks just like red jello)

I'm not a hunter, ballistician or wound trauma expert by any means, but I don't think that it is valid to compare hunting-grade rifles with handguns. One deals with 70 grain projectiles going 2,000 fps on up; the other we're talking about 115 grains on up going no faster than 1300 fps. They are different classes of ballistics. I thought the main benefit of hollowpoints was that they increased the size of the permanent cavity as one means of overcoming the "slow and heavy" shortcoming of handgun-caliber ballistics.

Looking at pictures of the different caliber expansions of recovered JHP bullets (courtesy of stevespages), it's hard for me to accept that any one handgun caliber behaves significantly better in tissue than another. The recovered bullets all look more or less the same.
MuthaGoose is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 07:08 PM   #45
mrt949
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 16, 2008
Posts: 1,465
40 because it works.
mrt949 is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 07:29 PM   #46
hkkilla
Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 79
Personal opinion: .40 S&W for self defense, 9mm for practice/plinking/cheap shooting/back up gun. Comparable in recoil to each other, the 9mm will always be cheaper. In the end, a bigger bullet is always going to be bigger and expand larger. The smaller round has to expand just to keep up... but everyone has a preference
hkkilla is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 07:37 PM   #47
BusGunner007
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2001
Location: Upper Left Coast
Posts: 2,061
.40 'cuz...

That's what I like, 'gots' & use.
In that photo above, the 180/.40 has about the same 'balloon' as the .45; penetration like the 147/9mm ( but the expansion is more ).
I've been told that even the TMJ .40 is pretty good for self-defense ammo in a pinch. The flat meplat is effective, regardless of the lower cost of the bullet/ammo.
I always call this cartridge the '.40 Sheetmetal & Windshield'
...
__________________
"...if you're not havin' fun, you're workin'..."
BusGunner007 is offline  
Old June 6, 2009, 09:25 PM   #48
Mello2u
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,424
First, all defensive handgun rounds (I'm excluding .44 mag 240gr @1400fps and more powerful cartridges) are under powered; and therefore, you should train to shoot the threat at least twice then assess the situation and take action as warranted. Bullets at handgun velocities do not do the things that bullets at rifle velocities do.

That said, there is little to no significant advantage in one or two more rounds of 9mm v. 40 S&W, one the one hand; and the slightly greater energy of the 40 S&W v. the 9mm.

The primary mechanism of incapacitation of a threat by a handgun bullet is loss of blood pressure caused by bleeding from the damaged tissue the bullet encounters.

Chose the gun and the round that you shoot best, practice correctly and maintain situational awareness.
__________________
NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society,
they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it.
" Frederic Bastiat
Mello2u is offline  
Old June 7, 2009, 11:52 AM   #49
TBT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: Pittsburgh Pa
Posts: 782
Quote:
there is a BIG difference in the wound channel between the 9 and all of the others.
A big difference? No. Not really.
TBT is online now  
Old June 7, 2009, 12:33 PM   #50
Sarge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2002
Location: MO
Posts: 4,911
I think if you look at the actual hole bored by the bullet, as opposed to the supposed 'temporary cavity' it all becomes a little clearer. I don't recall the origin of the above photo but IMO, dying the gelatin probably didn't do anything but cloud the issue even further.

Some folks will argue that, even at handgun velocities, the temporary cavity contributes significantly toward sooner incapacitation. I am not one of them.
__________________
I'm inclined to think if a man hasn't gotten his point across in 4912 attempts, 4913 probably isn't going to do it.
Sarge is offline  
Reply

Tags
40sw , 9mm , sig

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12526 seconds with 8 queries