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View Poll Results: Have you heard of the PTR-91 before?
No 19 15.45%
Yes 104 84.55%
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Old June 8, 2009, 04:21 PM   #26
ArcticNemo
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All HK are garbage

Hey Smarthoser,
My pal Gecko045 says that Special Weapons are way more reliabal and accuritt than the HundK or PeTeR junk. He is good friends with Todd, who knows everything about making guns so good, they can shoot the devil right between the eyes at 1000 yards.
Gecko and I shoot 400 rounds each night through our SW guns to stay sharp for our high-risk job. Maybe when you can demonstrait the kind of heavy duty use we put our SW3's through, you can have my endorsement.
Now is the time for you to quit posting ads, before I put on ninjitsu special boots and run up your wall.
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Old June 8, 2009, 05:46 PM   #27
Art Eatman
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Now, now, ArcticNemo, you behave or I'll take your tactical wheelbarrow away from you.
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Old June 8, 2009, 06:40 PM   #28
Tucker 1371
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Why have a PTR when you could have this...

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Old June 9, 2009, 03:34 AM   #29
smartwhois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTMilitiaman
But, I'd really like to see you try to back this statement up:

Quote:
The roller-delayed blowback design is superior in durability and reliability to the gas-operation of other popular rifles such as the AR-15, M1A, and AK-47.
Do you understand the difference between gas-operation and roller-delayed blowback? Can you explain how both of them work? Which one has more parts to fail? Which one requires more maintenance to function?
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Old June 9, 2009, 08:06 AM   #30
Skyyr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smartwhois
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTMilitiaman
But, I'd really like to see you try to back this statement up:

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartwhois
The roller-delayed blowback design is superior in durability and reliability to the gas-operation of other popular rifles such as the AR-15, M1A, and AK-47.
Do you understand the difference between gas-operation and roller-delayed blowback? Can you explain how both of them work? Which one has more parts to fail? Which one requires more maintenance to function?
Do you understand the difference between answering a question with a question and answering a question with an answer?
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Old June 9, 2009, 08:08 PM   #31
smartwhois
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Yes I do. Do you understand what spam is?
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Old June 9, 2009, 08:37 PM   #32
Skyyr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smartwhois
Yes I do. Do you understand what spam is?
Why, yes I do. Judging by the fact it was locked, I'd say your last thread was a great example of it.
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Old June 9, 2009, 08:40 PM   #33
smartwhois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RT
I have heard the 91's eat brass case rims for breakfast. Any truth to that?
Yes, that is true. Ejection is strong and damages brass. It's not gentle, but it is reliable.
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Old June 9, 2009, 08:47 PM   #34
smartwhois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyyr
Quote:
Originally Posted by smartwhois
Yes I do. Do you understand what spam is?
Why, yes I do. Judging by the fact it was locked, I'd say your last thread was a great example of it.
Then please stop spamming this thread Skyyr.

Making a detailed post about one of your favorite rifles is not spam. But posting completely worthless comments within a thread is spam, Skyyr. If you don't have something to contribute, then take yourself to another thread. You're not forced to post in this thread.
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Old June 9, 2009, 08:52 PM   #35
Tucker 1371
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Ok, I'll bite

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartwhois
The roller-delayed blowback design is superior in durability and reliability to the gas-operation of other popular rifles such as the AR-15, M1A, and AK-47.
#1: Prove it.

#2: If you can tout it's superiority to these rifles why not do so with it's closest competitor, the FAL? If the PTR is so great there's gotta be something better about it than the FAL right?

Edit: Superior in reliability of the AK47? You're joking right? I've seen people do some very mean things to an AK on a very nasty day and feed it the cruddiest ammo and it never onece quit shooting. Let's see a PTR do that.
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Old June 9, 2009, 09:10 PM   #36
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Quote:
If the PTR is so great there's gotta be something better about it than the FAL right?
After 18 minutes of thinking, I finally thought of something:

It's cheaper!
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Old June 9, 2009, 09:18 PM   #37
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You're right. It does need to be proven once and for all. There have been many misconceptions and rumors spread, for a long time, especially regarding the M1A, AR-15, and AK-47.

What I want to do is a fair tourture-test and accuracy comparison, video tape it all, and make the videos public on Youtube for everyone to see.

I don't think anything like that exists - we just have owners or users of one type of rifle design standing up for theirs, and those of others doing the same.

But it is interesting, that the G3 blowback design functions extremely well as not only a battle rifle, but also a submachinegun, general purpose machine gun, and sniper rifle.
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Old June 9, 2009, 09:20 PM   #38
Tucker 1371
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Quote:
After 18 minutes of thinking, I finally thought of something:

It's cheaper!
The Century CETME is... not the American made PTR-91. And even then a Century FAL is only marginally more expensive than a Century CETME.

Quote:
What I want to do is a fair tourture-test and accuracy comparison, video tape it all, and make the videos public on Youtube for everyone to see.
And here's my prediction of the outcome of that test:
1st to die: AR15
2nd and 3rd: PTR or M1A
Never: AK (until you run it over with a tank or something)


What about the FAL?
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Last edited by Tucker 1371; June 9, 2009 at 09:26 PM.
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Old June 9, 2009, 09:48 PM   #39
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Even if an AK never dies, accuracy is also a concern.

Yes, including the FAL. Do you have one I could use? Most people baby these things. It will be interesting to see how this much touted gas-operated rifle stands up to a fair torture test versus a blowback design.
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Old June 9, 2009, 10:29 PM   #40
Tucker 1371
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Quote:
Even if an AK never dies, accuracy is also a concern.
And if you do your part a 7.62x39 AK will shoot minute of torso at most common combat ranges, a 5.45x39 AK will reach a little further and is comparable in accuracy to many M4geries.

Quote:
Yes, including the FAL. Do you have one I could use? Most people baby these things. It will be interesting to see how this much touted gas-operated rifle stands up to a fair torture test versus a blowback design
You are the one doing the bragging, it's your job to back up your talk. You are challenging the two most succesful combat rifles of the 20th century, the AK and the M16, with a rifle that saw limited success and a FAR shorter service life.

Personally, on the range I don't see anything a PTR does that a M1A, AR10, or FAL doesn't do better.

In combat, while it may (you have yet to prove it) be more reliable than an M16, it is heavy, less ammo can be carried, and recoils worse than even other .308s, making it unsuitable for the types of combat that most military forces are seeing today.

As for the PSG-1 and MSG-90, the M21 (aka scoped M14) fills the designated marksman role much better, being slightly lighter and having little (if any) tradeoff in accuracy.

And, just on a personal note, I would feel a MUCH larger pride of ownership in an M1A than a PTR91 as it is not a cheaply made stamped receiver foreign gun. Maybe I'm just a stubborn, closed minded American, but I'm proud to be one.
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Old June 9, 2009, 10:42 PM   #41
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While I really love the looks of the PTR and I like the design. I wonder if it just does not fill in niches.

-The AK is the choice for those who want a gun that functions pretty much no matter what.

- The AR is a nice choice for those who want a small caliber weapon system that is accurate and reasonably light. Also the AR-10 fills the gap for the people who like the AR but want more firepower.

The only big advantage that I can give the PTR is that is is very reliable and has better firepower than an AK.

What does the FAL do that the PTR doesn't? I do not know very much about the FAL.

Also, if you want an AK with more power and range you may go the Druganov. What do you guys think?
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Old June 10, 2009, 12:23 AM   #42
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^^^

I think you pretty much summed it all up right there.

On a side note: smartwhois, in your last thread, the reason I thought you were a spammer was the fact that the video you linked to was basically an ad for the PTR, made by 308sniper.com. The video description also had a link to buy PTRs at 308sniper.com also. After reading your comments in this thread, I would officially like to apologize for reporting your last thread. At the time it seemed suspicious, but obviously, you're just an enamored fan.
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Old June 10, 2009, 12:24 AM   #43
waterhouse
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Quote:
Yes, including the FAL. Do you have one I could use? Most people baby these things. It will be interesting to see how this much touted gas-operated rifle stands up to a fair torture test versus a blowback design.
Unless you are very wealthy and have both a lot of time and a good source for a lot of ammo I don't see your youtube test getting very far. Do a search for the FAL Ol' Dirty, which went a recorded 15,000+ rounds without being cleaned.

You can see a picture of it sitting in a mud hole here:
http://ronocracy.blogspot.com/2007/0...as-legend.html

I'm sure there are AKs out there that have similar round counts in dirty states.

When you make a claim like this:
Quote:
The roller-delayed blowback design is superior in durability and reliability to the gas-operation of other popular rifles such as the AR-15, M1A, and AK-47.
be prepared to be asked to back it up. The bar is set pretty high.

I've owned a PTR-91, a Springfield Sar-8 (built in greece on HK tooling), a FAL, an AR-10, M1a, ARs, and AKs. I've got nothing against the 91 series, but I wouldn't say it is more reliable than an AK or a FAL either.

You're probably looking at $8,000 in ammo just to get your PTR-91 up to 15,000 rounds.
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Old June 10, 2009, 12:26 AM   #44
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Quote:
What does the FAL do that the PTR doesn't? I do not know very much about the FAL.
The FAL has an adjustable short-piston gas system that allows the operator to tune the rifle to the load being used, and allows the operator to adjust the gas system to allow for use when the rifle is exceptionally dirty or environmental conditions are especially rigorous. This allows the user to adjust the rifle to be reliable while using the minimum amount of gas. This is turn puts minimal battering on operating components and allows the rifle to function with the least possible amount of recoil. Many also find the FAL to have vastly superior ergonomics. The FAL is also the most combat proven and widely used of the Big Three MBRs, which I don't think accounts for all that much, but it does say something about the rifle considering that it was known as "The Right Arm of the Free World."

So to answer your question, the FAL provides a durable, reliable battle rifle accurate enough to engage at 600+ yards in a softer recoiling and far more ergonomic package than the G3.

Quote:
Do you understand the difference between gas-operation and roller-delayed blowback?
Yes.

Quote:
Can you explain how both of them work? Which one has more parts to fail? Which one requires more maintenance to function?
Yes, I could. But am I doing so for my own amusement or for your education?

Quote:
Making a detailed post about one of your favorite rifles is not spam.
Ah, but making unsupported claims about a rifle that you assume, I guess, everybody takes for granted to the point where you then feel obligated to challenge others to prove your points, is, if not spamming, then flagrantly trolling.

I've been known to be die-hard in my support of certain rifles, in particular, but I've done my best to support my assertions, at the very least, when prompted, and to admit personal preference on those I can't.

You acclaimed a particular rifle design to the point where people questioned whether you were employed by them. You made claims about this rifle that you then failed to support. No insult was meant by my inquiry, though you apparently took some insult at the notion that someone could question either your beloved rifle or your support of it. So no. I could (and I've been a member of this forum long enough that I probably have, at one point) but I am not going to explain the mechanical difference between these rifles. Rather I am going to ask you once again to either support or retract your original assertions.
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Old June 10, 2009, 05:34 AM   #45
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Neither a government monopoly, nor the widespread use or popularity as a result, make a good rifle. This is especially true of the M16 and AK-47.

I'm not interested in simply putting rounds through the rifles in a controlled environment, it would be more beneficial to recreate the Guns & Ammo low-crawl through the mud test with each rifle, submersion tests, and bench-rest firing.

Accuracy and firepower are important factors too. I don't see the M16 and AK-47 even competing with the .308s overall. As someone else pointed out, I suspect it would come down to the FAL and HK also.

As far as asking if you understood the difference between gas-operated rifles and blowback operated rifles, I need to know if you know the difference, otherwise there's no point in discussing something you may be unaware of. I'm sure you have a basic knowledge, so why don't you answer the questions? Gas tubes work great when they're clean. The G3 doesn't even have one.

Just for fun, when's the last time you saw something like this based on these other rifle designs:

Twin HK21

Last edited by smartwhois; June 10, 2009 at 06:02 AM.
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Old June 10, 2009, 06:41 AM   #46
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Gees. Some folks get really passionate about their weapons systems.

Me?

I like the PTR91. It works every time, is easy to put a really decent scope on, is mild recoiling, accurate, easy to clean, with a whole lot of available accessories. I suspect that it is nearly as reliable as the AK, maybe more so. Of the "Big 3", FAL, M14, and G3, it is a tossup. None is clearly superior to the others, but each trades some features for others. Find the one that fits you and go with it.

Better yet, get one of each.

It's anybody's guess as to why, but the Iranians used the G3, as did the Pakistanis, and have largely switched to the AK. Perhaps they know something?

For the informal plinking, perhaps an occasional 3 gun match, informal target shooting, or similar, that I am likely to do with it, the PTR91 works fine for me. I do NOT think that the Vorgrimmler system on this rifle is superior to the gas system of the M14, but I absolutely hated the gas system on the FAL. That said, if all are maintained properly, all will give good service. As parts wear, they must be replaced, same for each of these rifles.
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Old June 10, 2009, 01:04 PM   #47
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Quote:
As far as asking if you understood the difference between gas-operated rifles and blowback operated rifles, I need to know if you know the difference, otherwise there's no point in discussing something you may be unaware of. I'm sure you have a basic knowledge, so why don't you answer the questions? Gas tubes work great when they're clean. The G3 doesn't even have one.
Why? Because it's not my job to support your claims about your pet rifle. And as for me, don't flatter yourself. This is not classified information only you are privy to. So go ahead...don't completely fail to support this nonsense you keep spewing on my account. I'll try to keep up...

Because you insist on insulting the intelligence of the rest of the forum, and because it's your assertions on the superiority of the PTR-91 over competing battle rifle designs that is being discussed, you can enlighten the rest of us as to the differences in the designs of the rifles in question, the number of parts each has to fail, the amount of maintenance each supposedly needs, and what exactly makes the HK delayed blowback rifles so superior to other designs. Go ahead champ. Ball is in your court. And don't worry. I'll chime in if you manage to confuse me

I'm just interested at this point how long you will stall before finally supporting your initial claims.

And for the record, any test you do under uncontrolled conditions is going to mean precisely jack anyways. While you are cutting and pasting the Wikipedia articles for each of the rifles in question so you can enlighten those of us still stuck in the Dark Ages without a fervent and undying love of HK, maybe you should look up "scientific method" as well. Even with the public education system being what it is, I still managed to retain that somewhere around, o, I don't know...like the 6th grade.
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Old June 11, 2009, 02:45 AM   #48
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Gas Operation Versus Roller Delayed Blowback

Wow, MTMilitiaman, you typed all that up instead of just answering simple questions about the differences between blowback and gas? Surely it couldn't have taken any longer! Even if you didn't know, I figured you would quickly look it up on your own. Maybe you really do need a lesson? It's really not complicated at all (and yes, wiki will do just fine);


Gas Operation (AK-47, AR-15, M1A, FAL)

1) gas port, 2) piston head, 3) rod, 4) bolt, 5) bolt carrier, 6) spring

In gas operation, there is a hole in the barrel (1), which feeds propellant gases into a gas tube where they are funneled back into the action or against a piston (2) and driving a rod (3), in order to cycle the bolt (4). Channeling the high-temperature gases back into the rifle results in lubrication burning up, fouling of parts, and a gradual weakening of parts due to temper change.


Roller Delayed Blowback (HK G3, HK MP5, PTR-91)


In roller-delayed blowback, two little rollers hold the bolt closed while the propellant gasses are forced out of the barrel. As the pressure drops, the rollers retract into the bolt allowing it to cycle. No gas tube or piston assembly needed.

Last edited by smartwhois; June 11, 2009 at 03:28 AM.
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Old June 11, 2009, 02:46 AM   #49
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Wow ....

This thread has gone crazy.

First, I prefer the G3/HK-91/PTR-91 and own one currently based upon the PTR-91, but I've been adding a lot of HK stuff to it over the years. Someday, I'll have to decide whether to post pictures of it and it's kit. I own and shoot a FN Fal, AR 15, and of coarse my PTR-91 clone of closet legal to own civilian version of the G3. The PSG1 trigger group alone cost about what I paid for the rifle before I started customizing it and that is before I added a HK paratrooper stock, the MSG-90 butt-stock and two stage buffer, to replace the standard butt-stock, the wide-foregrip plus metal bipod, flapper magazine release, and bayonet gas cap. Also, the Navy plastic grip frame had to go! Try finding a HK-91 metal grip frame in S-E.


That said, since the G3 in general is not legal to own in US after 1968, the HK-91 and clones like the PTR-91 are missing several things.

With that preface, I have to take exception to anyone who claims the PTR-91 is the best battle rifle hands-down. While it is my personal preferred battle rifle, it has it's own issues, but for that matter, so does any of the 30 cal gas operated choices.

The biggest draw backs of the PTR-91 is the lack of the flapper magazine release, without which single-handed magazine changes are impossible, which as others have mentioned requires serious machining work to rectify and yet remain BATFE compliant. I have commented before, that I have access to a machine-shop and thus did the modification myself. But even if you fix that, the other more serious draw back in the design of the G3/HK-91/PTR-91 is the lack of a bolt hold open on empty magazine, that is something all of the others have, (e.g., M1 Garrand, M14/M1A, FN FAL). This is a serious limitation of the G3 design, because it forces the operator to count rounds or worse yet check from time to time, or wait until a trigger is squeezed without a "bang" to "know" the magazine is empty. While roller-block locking mechanism is an effective design, it requires maintenance to maintain, and as the result of wear, is not an easy thing to correct in the field. In this sense, I can not fathom how roller-block locking is some how superior to all other designs. With my engineering background and training, I wouldn't make that claim.

So, to claim this weapon or that weapon is superior, is foolish IMHO, as the type of combat, environmental conditions, and operator training and experience, weapon condition and maintenance are all variables. Plus this ignores, ammunition quality and bullet type and form and suitability, powder type and lot and the pressure curve of that powder. Since these are all variables, I don't believe that the perfect weapon has been invented yet. Like everything else in engineering, weapon systems are fraught with design compromises. To quote a line from one of my favorite movies, " A man has got to know his limitations." I think that it equally applies to weapons and weapon systems.

In Viet Nam, yes, I'm Southeast Asian Vet, I used in combat both the M14, and the M16A1. This is just me, but I never liked the M14, and had a lot of issues with it, I was grateful when I turned in the M14 for a M16A1, I had a lot less issues with the M16A1 I was issued, and shortly before I left they started issuing 30 round mags, which at list put the M16 on parity with the then new AK-47.

My brother owns and I shot on many occasions his M1 Garrand, and while it doesn't do anything for me, I would take it over the M14 any day.

My simple point is every rifle design has advantages and disadvantages, to pretend otherwise is silly. With that closing thought, I'll remind everyone, that ...

YMMV.

Opinions are like a certain human body part, everyone has one, including me!
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Old June 11, 2009, 03:18 AM   #50
smartwhois
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The biggest complaints you can come up with is the magazine release, and that the bolt is not held open? You call those "serious limitations?"

One of these is simply caused by the U.S. government infringing upon American's right to bear arms and requiring unnecessary modification to the original, and the other is an inconvenience, but certainly not a serious limitation.

The point I was making in the original thread was regarding the design of the action, not the overall rifle. I agree, every rifle has it's advantages or disadvantages in certain situations. Use the right tool for the job. However, regarding the design, you don't think the roller-delayed blowback design is superior to gas operation?

Last edited by smartwhois; June 11, 2009 at 03:59 AM.
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