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View Poll Results: Have you heard of the PTR-91 before?
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Yes 104 84.55%
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Old June 5, 2009, 08:12 AM   #1
smartwhois
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PTR-91 .308 Battle Rifle - U.S. Made HK-91/G3



PTR-91 rifles are U.S. manufactured HK-91 Heckler & Koch rifles. PTR stands for Precision Target Rifle. The PTR 91 was developed with actual tooling from an H&K licensed G3 arms plant. The G3 is the full automatic version of the HK-91. PTR-91 rifles retain all major design features of the well-engineered German H&K G3 roller-delayed blowback design. This design is found in everything from the world famous H&K MP5 submachine gun, to belt-fed general purpose machine guns like the HK21, and even highly accurate semi-auto sniper rifles such as the H&K PSG-1 and MSG-90. The roller-delayed blowback design is superior in durability and reliability to the gas-operation of other popular rifles such as the AR-15, M1A, and AK-47.

In 2006, PTR-91, Inc. of Farmington Connecticut purchased JLD Enterprises and is now the current manufacturer of the PTR 91 rifles. Over the past few years, further improvements and refinements have resulted in the PTR 91 being recognized as better than even the original HK 91 rifles. One such improvement is that PTR 91 rifles come with .75” diameter Match grade 4 groove barrels with a 1:12” right twist.

Two decades ago on July 7, 1989, President Bush banned Americans from owning any new H&K 91 rifles. As a result, H&K was forced to cease production of the HK91.

Thanks to the efforts of JLD Enterprises and PTR-91, Inc., in bringing H&K tooling to the U.S. for manufacture, the infringement upon owning these arms was effectively bypassed, allowing Americans to buy HK-91 rifles again!


Detailed video of PTR-91 Battle Rifle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVBkVdW7dxI


Last edited by smartwhois; June 5, 2009 at 08:28 AM.
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Old June 5, 2009, 08:30 AM   #2
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There supposed to be good rifles, but why do you keep putting up what looks like an ad?? Do you work for them or something?
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Old June 5, 2009, 08:41 AM   #3
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No, the H&K G3 is one of my favorite all-around rifles.

I didn't see any PTR-91 threads with any detailed information like I posted, so I wanted to make a worthwhile contribution as my first thread.
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Old June 5, 2009, 09:00 AM   #4
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This exact same thread was closed before. It said the same. It may stay around if you psoted a range report after shooting one or something.
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Old June 5, 2009, 12:40 PM   #5
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Yes, I have heard of them.

But, I'd really like to see you try to back this statement up:

Quote:
The roller-delayed blowback design is superior in durability and reliability to the gas-operation of other popular rifles such as the AR-15, M1A, and AK-47.
While there is little doubt the G3 has established a reputation for reliability, I have yet to see any proof it is mechanically more reliable than a quality gas gun like the M1A or the AK. The roller lock design is not without its own faults. For example, they tend to run dirty like the AR, and tend to be more violent in operation, which aside from increasing felt recoil for many compared to designs like the FAL and M1A, also increases the tendency for the rifle to tear the head off cases during extraction.

And the regulations imposed on the roller lock rifles offer unique problems to the American consumer. Besides having heavy and gritty triggers often requiring aftermarket trigger jobs, roller lock clones also have modified mag releases that further miff what is already by far the worst ergonomics of any of the popular 7.62mm battle rifles. It can be fixed, but again, the paddle style magazine release conversion requires aftermarket support.

I don't buy the HK thing either. Not everything that glitters HK on the side of it, or claims HK's heritage, is gold. There is little doubt the HK is a decent rifle, but it is not all that. It's still a stamped sheet metal receiver rifle with sights, trigger, and ergonomics all inferior to many other designs. In terms of control placement, I think even the AK is superior. And the AK certainly lacks nothing in terms of reliability to the roller lock rifles. Accuracy and range, esp when compared to the full power 7.62x51, yes. Reliability, no.

I handled several PTR-91s and an original HK91. I found all of them to be underwhelming compared to the FALs and M1As I handled. In the end, I went with an M1A, and have not regretted it. And while that is obviously a personal choice, at least I can back my opinion up instead of making posts that sound more like advertisements with exaggerated hype and false claims I can't back up.
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Old June 5, 2009, 12:45 PM   #6
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I have heard the 91's eat brass case rims for breakfast. Any truth to that?
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Old June 5, 2009, 12:53 PM   #7
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And you would buy this over a real precision rifle why ? A CETME would be a cheaper choice for a battle rifle at 599.00 I guess I'm missing you're point.
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Old June 5, 2009, 02:35 PM   #8
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A friend, back in the late `80s, had one of those critters. If I remember correctly, she sold it because she preferred to be able to collect her brass for reloading; the fluted chambers and delayed-blowback was absolute hell on the brass.
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Old June 5, 2009, 02:38 PM   #9
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Quote:
I handled several PTR-91s and an original HK91. I found all of them to be underwhelming compared to the FALs and M1As I handled.
"HK. Because You Suck. And We Hate You."
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Old June 5, 2009, 03:55 PM   #10
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To me, HK seems to be hung up on designs that put a lot of emphasis on extreme accuracy. COnsidering most of their product seem to be CQB or battle issue items, not SDM or "sniper," I don't get it, but I don't get a lot of things and have decided to shrug this one off. I'd be happy with ammo and a Saiga over an PTR, a Sten over an MP5, and a Glock over a USP or whatever.
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Old June 5, 2009, 04:04 PM   #11
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http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=360717


Look familiar?
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Old June 5, 2009, 04:17 PM   #12
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Anyone who has shot an HK91 can testify to the fact that it has a fairly harsh recoil. Personally, I prerfer the M14 or a FAL type rifle.

However, for a gun that is about $1,000, the PTR-91 is a pretty good value.
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Old June 5, 2009, 07:08 PM   #13
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I have yet to shoot a ptr-91 but I really like what I see. I do not mind recoil so that isn't much of an issue. I also do not reload so the smashing of brass is not a biggy. What kind of consistency do these things maintain? Are they pretty reliable out of the box? Also, how much does it cost to have trigger jobs and other modifications done? Again, I love the looks and feel of them but I'm still trying to get some more info.
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Old June 5, 2009, 07:15 PM   #14
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In know this might be off topic but why can firearms manufacturers not import guns into the US?
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Old June 5, 2009, 07:59 PM   #15
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In know this might be off topic but why can firearms manufacturers not import guns into the US?
Because the rest of the world is your enemy and your government does not want you to support your foes with american cash....or at least you americans think that way. Ha!

( joke!)
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Old June 5, 2009, 09:13 PM   #16
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Recoil is a non issue with the 91, It is an excellent weapon and I would go as far as to say comparable to an HK manufactured rifle. I have owned and used both and I still have the PTR-91K. I will acknowledge some issues with the JLD pieces, likely a manufacturing learning curve but the weapon I own has zero malfunctions ever. I do recommend shooting berdan primed ammo though because anything domestic is going to suffer the same fate.
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Old June 6, 2009, 04:27 AM   #17
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Quote:
To me, HK seems to be hung up on designs that put a lot of emphasis on extreme accuracy. COnsidering most of their product seem to be CQB or battle issue items,
Military and LE sales are their prime markets and they do well in them.
Quote:
not SDM or "sniper,"
What? There's the G3SG/1, PSG1, MSG90, HK33sg/1 and a few others, all based on the roller-delayed blowback design.
Quote:
Over the past few years, further improvements and refinements have resulted in the PTR 91 being recognized as better than even the original HK 91 rifles.
Other than the barrel, which is debateable, what improvements have been made? AFAIK, JLD didn't modify the tooling that they purchased from the Portuguese company, FMP.

Do PTRs all come with the flapper magazine release intalled? I don't think I'd own another HK roller gun without it.
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Old June 6, 2009, 10:40 AM   #18
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The Recoil Myth is alive I see

A properly gapped and set up G3 design will have no more perceived recoil than any other rifle of that sort. Some folks think the action is louder than the M14 or FAL, and that could be.

It is my belief that other than a properly made match M14, all of these rifles will shoot pretty much the same, accuracy wise.

The Bill Springfield trigger job is pretty consistent, and not terribly expensive. He has a website out there. Mr. Springfield will also install your paddle mag release, which in my estimation makes the rifle a much better system. Williams Trigger Specialties has other options, and tends to run a few $ more.

Like any other weapon, find the one that you like. Just 'cuz I like it doesn't make it suitable for you. I like to think of the HK or PTR91 as an AK hopped up on steroids, and with better sights. I really like the drum sight on the HK design. The action is stone cold reliable, and it will always go "bang" even after hundreds of rounds without cleaning. It is a heavy rifle, but it balances well. The magazines are works of art with incredibly strong feedboxes... the area where the AR15 is sorely lacking. The rifle is easy to clean with the proper assortment of brushes and patches.

Best of all is the ready availability of the subcaliber device, and inexpensive, high quality glass. The subcaliber device allows one to shoot 22 long rifles through his 308. A very enjoyable time can be had with one of these and 500 rounds of ammo. The Hensholdt scopes are a tremendous value, and are really pleasant to use.

I like the M14, but both that rifle and the FAL were not really designed to accept optics well, and unless things have changed, I haven't seen a scope base that is a return to zero arrangement for either of them, as there is for the G3 design.

For $50 a POF port buffer will eliminate the reloaders' nightmare of mangled brass caused by striking either the right front claw mount leg or the rear of the ejection port, ASSUMING you can find the empties. The rifle does have a vigorous extraction. With military brass loaded to reasonable pressures my rifle does not change headspace on the empty brass at all, although the ejector does a number on the case rim. I have reloaded such brass 7x, but retire it after that as the rim starts to get pretty well peened into a larger diameter.

I really like mine. It fits me, it shoots where I point it. It is reliable. It is fun to tag steel on a cool Spring morning at 400+ yards with it prone, bipod extended. It is great to introduce new shooters to the sport, as the 22 long rifle is also fun, and instills confidence when the newbie hits what he is aiming at.

I will likely get an M14 or clone sometime in my future. It is also a great rifle. I doubt another FAL will be in my life again as I was singularly unimpressed with that rifle. I had a pre dealer sample G1 rifle. The trigger hurt my finger. The steel forend was unuseable after 1 mag dump. Cleanup was less than enjoyable, and it didn't readily accept a scope. The rear sight was all wobbly, and the adjustable gas system that people extoll was a huge negative in my mind. But folks like them, so I say "great!" No skin off my back.

So. Get what fits you, and what you like. Don't worry about what others say.

Last edited by stubbicatt; June 6, 2009 at 10:53 AM.
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Old June 6, 2009, 04:46 PM   #19
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Quote:
A properly gapped and set up G3 design will have no more perceived recoil than any other rifle of that sort. Some folks think the action is louder than the M14 or FAL, and that could be.
I disagree that it is a myth. This Monday I shot my PTR with 150 grain reloads. Today I shot a 88 round match with my M1a.

Based on my "calibrated" shoulder, the PTR action has a harsher recoil slap than a M1a. And it is all due to that massive bolt and carrier hitting the buffer.

I have a port buffer on mine. This device really reduces case dents and ejection distance. Cases are still ejected way ahead, but without the port buffer cases were ejected so hard and so far, that I could not find them in the grass, and some were dented so hard that I could not recover them.

Bill Springfield did the trigger on mine, and it is as good as a tuned M1a trigger.

As far as criticising the rifle for poor ergomics, I really doubt the military purchasing agents could give a flip about these sort of complaints. It is evident that the rifle was designed with at least primary objectives 1) easy to make 2) easy to maintain 3) reliable.

Cost is an overwhelming consideration for a military who is going to buy $200,000,000 worth of weapons. Nice to have things as “better” ergomics are not going to happen if that feature costs a penny more.

The Germans who designed this rifle had the experience of a real war, one that was fought in the Deserts of North Africa, the mud of France, and the artic of the Russian steppes. A soldier’s life expectancy was what, around nine months? Why try to build weapons that last twenty years if the soldier carrying the rifle will be dead in nine months? Germany found that rifles needed to be built faster than the rate they lost their soldiers. I think Germany lost 8 million soldiers, the Russians 20 million, in a war that lasted close to six years.


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Old June 7, 2009, 08:57 PM   #20
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For a rifle that is so cheap to manufacture, it seems that they are quite expensive right now. Are the current prices a bit inflated from the election?
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Old June 7, 2009, 09:44 PM   #21
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Oh no... no more troll chasing for me :D

Stephanie B... the intro to that HK. Because you suck and we hate you. article was positively hilarious.

I was kind of a fan of the Mk23 (not HK in general, Americans do guns best ) for a while but I have small hands so I doubt it would be a good gun for me.

I'll have to show it to my friend who sold his dad his Kimber 1911 so he could buy a USP (:barf

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Old June 7, 2009, 11:10 PM   #22
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Quote:
The Recoil Myth is alive I see
I didn't have any scientific gauges, so this isn't any sort of real proof, but I've shot my PTR-91 and Sprinfield Sar-3 right next to my FAL.

I like them all, but the 91 series guns do seem to recoil more than the FAL when using the same ammo. I haven't weighed them in a while but I think they are both really close in weight. I think the FAL is a softer shooter.
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Old June 8, 2009, 08:12 AM   #23
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I hadn't shot an HK91 in many years. I picked one up about a month ago and fired it some, and the first thing that came to my mind was "this darn thing kicks hard for a .308". Then I rememberd that it's not gas operated like the other semi-auto .308's I've been shooting.
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Old June 8, 2009, 03:00 PM   #24
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I had one and sold it because of the short brass life. I cant afford to shoot factory ammo and a gun must be kind to brass. As to the recoil if you cant shoot a 10 lb 308 without wineing then youd best stick to a .22 rimfire. To me recoil was non existant in my 91. Accuracy too wasnt its strong suit. A good ar10 or m14 will outshoot one anyday. I did experience to case head seperations though. One with new commercial (WW) ammo and one with brass that had been reloaded twice before. It was easy enough to fix with a stuck case extractor and considering im not in a fight for my life didnt consider it a big deal. Personaly i prefer a ar10 hands down. there more accurate, at least as reliable and much easier to mount optics on and best of all MUCH CHEAPER
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Old June 8, 2009, 04:02 PM   #25
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not SDM or "sniper,"
What? There's the G3SG/1, PSG1, MSG90, HK33sg/1 and a few others, all based on the roller-delayed blowback design.
Yeah, they basically took what were their standard issue rifles and made some small changes and came up with a sniper rifle. I think that proves my point. Try doing that with an AK. They build guns that are high precision and most agencies that use them use them for relatively low precision work.
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