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Old June 5, 2009, 12:24 PM   #76
Tucker 1371
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Not sure I agree with that Mr. Santoro. This is a legitimate option, you want to secure the guy so he doesn't 1) get away with B&E 2) so you're not forced to shoot and probably kill him.

Personally, I wouldn't do it. You don't know what the BG has on him or on his mind. It's definitely a lot more dangerous than just holding the gun on him and getting another family member to call the police.
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Old June 5, 2009, 12:30 PM   #77
guntotin_fool
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Handcuffs are a problem waiting to happen,


Ever watch COPS? Ever see how many in shape, trained LEO's it takes to get the cuffs on a recalcitrant suspect? You are going to do this, alone, untrained, in your house? BS, you try, you are going to get at worst a beat down, and more than likely, the cuffs on you and him with your gun.


Its really easy. If he is in your house without permission and committing a felony, if you did not invite him in, if you are afraid that he is going to hurt you, you can SHOOT HIM. if you prefer NOT to shoot him, then tell him in small words to get the hell out or you will shoot him. If you wish, you might be generous and tell him lay down and spread them or you will shoot him. If he refuses, you can feel that he is figuring out how to hurt you, and you can SHOOT him.


Find me ONE SINGLE CASE where an honest law abiding home owner was ever charged or convicted for shooting a burglar or strong arm robbery suspect in their own home. IT DOES NOT HAPPEN. If the person is being charged, it is because of other circumstance. IE a drug deal gone bad, or someone invited them in, but after 25 beers, when the invitee had worn out there welcome by hitting on the inviters GF, inviter shoots invitee, no thats not going to fly.

BUT if you are joe homeowner, watching TV at midnight when someone kicks your door open and starts demanding your money and you put three center of mass, or if you come in from the deck and charlie crackhead is in your Living room boosting your TV, and you pop him, your NOT going to jail. More than likely, the kind of guy who breaks into your home is going to have a record that has its own hard drive down at the Local PD. Its a simple fact, most crimes are committed by a very small percentage of the population. When you find yourself confronted in your own home by a invader, that is the lifestyle this person has chosen. More often than not, you will get a very private "attaboy" from the cops who show up. They will know his name without looking for ID, When the Cops say, "bad day to be you, Joe Bob," or "Tyrone", Or "Hector" to the body on your floor, relax, you did a good thing.


I get sick and tired of people thinking that if you do not follow a prescribed set of steps in exactly the right order, you are going to spend your life behind bars if you shoot. NO you are not, IF you are a good law abiding Citizen and your worst "crime" to date has been a speeding ticket driving home from church to catch the rest of the first half of the football game. If you have some drug history, or a few D&D charges from your years of being a jack ass, you might have some trouble, but if like most americans, your worst thing was a traffic citation, or you got caught stealing the rival high schools mascot and you had to pick up trash for two weekends, NO you are not going to jail for shooting a hoodlum in your house.

Handcuffs are a problem for anyone except the Law, and maybe a few who have wives who like that sort of thing. other than that, All I see out of it is a lawsuit.
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Old June 5, 2009, 12:38 PM   #78
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Find me ONE SINGLE CASE where an honest law abiding home owner was ever charged or convicted for shooting a burglar or strong arm robbery suspect in their own home. IT DOES NOT HAPPEN.
actually it has happened, it does happen and will continue to happen. Just give me a few and I'll get the links for you. If the prosecution proves that your life wasn't at risk then you can go to jail.
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Old June 5, 2009, 12:41 PM   #79
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"So in areas where you have the right to use any level of force to stop a violent felony could you use hand cuffs on the felon... LEGALLY?"

this is a little confusing...

I assume you mean that a violent felony has begun or is well underway and some how you have stopped it (gunpoint, commands, physical control).

If you have stopped a violent felony and have not fired a shot, I assume you consider cuffs an option to hold them there to be picked up. Another poster summed this one up for me when they said, "I'm not in the business of detaining criminals."

If you have stopped a violent felony via shots fired, then you shouldn't be concerned with handcuffs. More concerned about safety and medical attention.

It does not appear you are talking about someone in your home just standing in the kitchen after b & e or someone outside taking your car cd player. Since the term violent felony is used.
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Old June 5, 2009, 12:50 PM   #80
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For an instance, being held up in the walmart parking lot etc... And yes as a means to detain for LE to arrive. I am not fond of the idea of stopping the crime and not the crook. But would only shoot if forced to do so.
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Old June 5, 2009, 01:02 PM   #81
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thanks Brent.

In a parking lot or elsewhere, if I stop a crime without firing I doubt circumstances would be favorable for me to handcuff someone.

I have seen cases though and you probably have too (cops / most wanted / etc) where someone has hurt someone or is trying to get away and a few guys grab him and basically hold him down until police take control.

In a couple of these, the arriving police push the citizens away and then take control. One was a guy that was scuffling with a police officer near his car and two bystanders jumped in and helped subdue the BG and then 3 other officers arrived and did a little more "subduing"
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Old June 5, 2009, 01:13 PM   #82
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Here is juniors chipped tooth he got when we were each holding a set trying to cuff the other... mrs.hogdogs was not the happiest momma at my house that day!

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Old June 5, 2009, 01:13 PM   #83
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Just do what's practical. If someone's in my house at 3am they're getting the surefire first then the AK immediately if I don't like what I see, he'll be lucky if he can get his hands up or say something before I shoot.
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Old June 5, 2009, 03:16 PM   #84
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If someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night, odds are not only will I not handcuff him, I probably won't even see him. I'll be barricaded behind a solid core door with my shotgun and dialing 911.

The best way to survive (physically, mentally, and legally) an encounter with a home intruder is to avoid it.

I know this is not an option for some folks due to floor plans, other family members, and whatnot, but in my house it is a great option.
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Old June 5, 2009, 03:47 PM   #85
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same here Donn

the way we're set up via middle of the night break in is...

what he (they) do or take in the living room or laundry room is their business.

what happens if they proceed much deeper and down the hall toward where my girls are sleeping is my business.
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Old June 5, 2009, 04:10 PM   #86
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If you wish, you might be generous and tell him lay down and spread them or you will shoot him. If he refuses, you can feel that he is figuring out how to hurt you, and you can SHOOT him.
Guntotin' Fool, don't fool yourself.

Find an experienced criminal attorney in your state and discuss that question with him.

Quote:
Find me ONE SINGLE CASE where an honest law abiding home owner was ever charged or convicted for shooting a burglar or strong arm robbery suspect in their own home. IT DOES NOT HAPPEN. If the person is being charged, it is because of other circumstance. ... if you are joe homeowner, watching TV at midnight when someone kicks your door open and starts demanding your money and you put three center of mass, or if you come in from the deck and charlie crackhead is in your Living room boosting your TV, and you pop him, your NOT going to jail.
Indycolts, who by virtue of his profession knows what he is talking about, says he's looking for some information, but let's see if this holds your appetite:

You've mentioned two scenarios: one involves a forcible (some laws say 'tumultuous") entry while you are in your house. Pretty straightforward, I'd say. In almost all states you may shoot, but in some you may need to try retreating first. In the OP's case and in mine, you do not.

The second scenario you describe involves the resident coming in to find someone in his home and shooting him for trying to take property. I only know of "one single case" where such an incident has occurred: in Washington State, which has a castle doctrine, a homeowner recently found a perp in his house and shot him. He has been charged with murder. Good enough for you?

You see, the homeowner was not in the house when the guy entered. By the way, most state castle laws are written in such a manner that most people will understand that they just can't get by with that. In some states, being on the deck may qualify as occupying the domicile, but in others it will not.

And there's only one state (potentially two, actually) in which shooting simply to stop the taking of the TV would be legal, but only under limited circumstances, and you would have to show that the shooting had been necessary to prevent the removal of the property.

Quote:
More than likely, the kind of guy who breaks into your home is going to have a record that has its own hard drive down at the Local PD.
Unless you happen to have known that, getting it introduced into evidence would be an interesting challenge.

Quote:
More often than not, you will get a very private "attaboy" from the cops who show up. They will know his name without looking for ID, When the Cops say, "bad day to be you, Joe Bob," or "Tyrone", Or "Hector" to the body on your floor, relax, you did a good thing.
Read some of the material Pax suggested and see if you still believe that.

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I get sick and tired of people thinking that if you do not follow a prescribed set of steps in exactly the right order, you are going to spend your life behind bars if you shoot.
????

It ain't a procedural question at all--forget the steps. It's simply a matter of whether you are legally justified under the circumstances and whether the evidence supports that defense.

In the event of a forcible unlawful entry while you are occupying your domicile, that defense is apt to prove a whole lot easier and less expensive than might the defense for a shooting in a parking lot with no witnesses.

Quote:
...IF you are a good law abiding Citizen and your worst "crime" to date has been a speeding ticket driving home from church to catch the rest of the first half of the football game...you are not going to jail for shooting a hoodlum in your house.
Again, if the shooting was legally justified and the evidence is sufficient to prove that, that's what matters. Nothing esle.

And again, I strongly suggest that you check out the links and read the book recommended by Pax.
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Old June 5, 2009, 04:31 PM   #87
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Geez, that permit dont make you a cop. Handcuff someone and you will be in court over it. Dont give the BG ammo for him to use against you in court.
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Old June 5, 2009, 05:19 PM   #88
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"It's a nice opinion but?"....

Yep, it is my opinion!

This is the bottom line: When someone has broken in my home at 3:00am in the morning, (or any other time for that matter) they are history, toast, etc. etc. I heard someone say, "Just do what is practical"? I will do what is practical, PROTECT MY FAMILY....

You guys kill me with the B.S. What the heck has happened to this country, (when the bad guys get the benefit of the doubt)? Remind me to NEVER be in your home when someone breaks in your house.....

Glad I make my own decisions and don't depend on your support. Defend yourself and family first.
Forget about all the rest of this B.S.

Last edited by skydiver3346; June 6, 2009 at 08:18 AM.
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Old June 6, 2009, 10:28 AM   #89
David Armstrong
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Find me ONE SINGLE CASE where an honest law abiding home owner was ever charged or convicted for shooting a burglar or strong arm robbery suspect in their own home. IT DOES NOT HAPPEN.
Of course it doesn't happen. If they are charged or convicted they are not honest law abiding home owners. There are plenty of cases where people have claimed they were honest law abiding homeowners just defending their home from the BG who are doing time, and plenty more who have bought an attorney a new car or a cruise.
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Old June 7, 2009, 01:42 AM   #90
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Handcuffs, I use them at work.

If I'm not at work I will be distancing myself from the adversary and seeking cover. If the felon wants to run away from me, great. If he complies with my orders to "prone out" great. I'm still not touching him with a 10' pole. In short, I don't want to be anywhere close to my adversary. Handcuffs, to apply them, force you to come in to contact with your adversary.

If he or she is injured in the encounter, not good, great or bad, they are just injured. No, I'm not tending to an adversaries wounds at that time either. It could just be a trap to "lull" me in. Like I said, I want distance.

Unless you are a LEO that is required to carry them off duty I see no need for them in an off duty, or non LEO application. That's just my $0.02. If this has already been stated, I apologise. I didn't read four pages of post just to give my $0.02.

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Old June 7, 2009, 02:02 AM   #91
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I would have no reservations handcuffing a felon after I have shot him in my home. After all how that I have shot him COM now I should do first aid and to do that I have to render him safe. Just remember its shoot then cuff not cuff then shoot.
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Old June 7, 2009, 02:55 AM   #92
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Citizens arrests are generally legal, but it would be illegal to move him, you could only detain him until LE showed up. See if you could get former leo to train you to use them. Proper handcuffing is generally done very quickly, most of the trainees who were with me could get in and out of a persons bubble in less than 5 seconds. Once you get one cuff on a bg you can usually manipulate them easily if they start to resist, I was certified in handcuffing when I was 18 but there are alot of things to know before you actually go try to handcuff someone. Just to throw a few out there:

Handcuffing and uncuffing is one of the most dangerous situations an LEO ever gets himself into on a daily basis.

Handcuffs are a deadly weapon, once you have one cuff on, if you lose control of the suspect and have to disengage you should immiadiatley go for your sidearm.

Any time you step into a persons bubble (if I rememer correctly the kill zone is anywhere within a 6 foot radius of someone) you are putting yourself in danger so you want to get in and out as quick as possible.

You never know whats going to happen so keep them, but I think for a civilian it would make more sense and be easier to just make them lay on the ground and hold them at gun point until LE showed up
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Old June 7, 2009, 07:00 AM   #93
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After all how that I have shot him COM now I should do first aid and to do that I have to render him safe.
IMHO, this is really bad advice! as BikerRN said, keep your distance. Unless you are a trained medical professional, if you, as a "civilian" administer CPR or some other form of first aid and the BG ends up dying anyway, YOU could end up being accused of causing the BG's death when this goes to court! After all, you just shot the guy and without witnesses, who's to say that you weren't just trying to finish the job the bullets started?

OTOH, if you are a physician (or maybe even an RN), I could see how this could be used in reverse. If you did nothing and the BG dies, his lawyers could say, "As a doctor, how come you did not administer CPR?"

Just my 2ยข
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Old June 7, 2009, 09:25 AM   #94
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Remember laws vary by state

For instance, in Florida or Georgia, I can shoot a BG who breaks into my home. I have no responsibility to retreat, and the burglary itself justifies the shoot. In both states, I cannot be sued over a legally justified defensive shooting. Note: in Florida's statute, burglary of a home is listed among violent felonies. This may be at least in part due to rising number of home invasions...

At the other end, in Massachusetts I remember a case where a woman heard somebody break into her home. She picked up the nearest heavy object, a kid's gumball machine, and when the intruder came around the corner, she hit him over the head with it. It killed him. DA charged her with manslaughter. I don't remember if she was convicted, but in MA you are required to retreat, even in your own home.

Remember, on this forum posters aren't necessarily even in the US, let alone your state, so it's possible they can offer opinions that are legally and technically correct for them, yet way off base for you or me.
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Old June 7, 2009, 09:29 AM   #95
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Citizens arrests are generally legal, but it would be illegal to move him, you could only detain him until LE showed up.
Legal in all states but one, I think.

Nonetheless, not for me. Attorneys tell me that the legal risk involves a very slippery slope indeed, and most of the books and websites on personal defense seem to concur.

Quote:
You never know whats going to happen so keep them, but I think for a civilian it would make more sense and be easier to just make them lay on the ground and hold them at gun point until LE showed up
Make them? Well, in some states one could use non-deadly force. Hold them at gun point? Well, you do see that in old westerns, but what's the "point" if you cannot shoot them?
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Old June 7, 2009, 09:34 AM   #96
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MLeake: Massachusetts laws

If that law about retreat is true, I'm sure glad I live here in Florida and not Mass. Retreat in your own home?? That is pure crap. Someone breaks into your home and you have to run and hide.. Right, like that is going to happen!
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Old June 7, 2009, 09:46 AM   #97
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skydiver, The retreat law is in place in several states to varying degree.
YUP... Sux to live there!
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Old June 7, 2009, 09:52 AM   #98
OldMarksman
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For instance, in Florida or Georgia, I can shoot a BG who breaks into my home. I have no responsibility to retreat, and the burglary itself justifies the shoot.
Maybe, maybe not. Re-read Post #21 and the link to the law. If you have to shoot for self defense, you are justified and your burden of proof is reasonable, but that's different from shooting someone for the act of burglary in Florida.

Quote:
In both states, I cannot be sued over a legally justified defensive shooting.
For some reason a lot of people seem to think that. It has more truth than the old legend about dragging someone into your house, but in Florida it is not accurate.

The court will issue a stay against a civil suit while you are under criminal prosecution, and in the event of a civil suit, proof of an unlawful entry can serve as a defense. That's a little different from "cannot be sued."

That's for Florida. You can check Georgia yourself.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/...20085#0776.085

Quote:
Remember, on this forum posters aren't necessarily even in the US, let alone your state, so it's possible they can offer opinions that are legally and technically correct for them, yet way off base for you or me.
That is a very, very good point!
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Old June 7, 2009, 09:58 AM   #99
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If that law about retreat is true, I'm sure glad I live here in Florida and not Mass. Retreat in your own home?? That is pure crap.
You can sure say that again.

You do not have to retreat if you are in your domicile (that includes a tent, by the way) or car in Missouri, either. I'm told that the law was enacted to correct some bad case law.

The original "duty to retreat" concept existed for a reason, but its extension into the occupied home exceeds all standards of reasonableness by a long shot, in my opinion.

Last edited by OldMarksman; June 7, 2009 at 10:02 AM. Reason: typo
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Old June 7, 2009, 11:22 AM   #100
Tucker 1371
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And there's only one state (potentially two, actually) in which shooting simply to stop the taking of the TV would be legal, but only under limited circumstances, and you would have to show that the shooting had been necessary to prevent the removal of the property.
Make it three if Georgia is not among them:
http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2...ext/hb1061.htm

Pay very close attention to Section 3 part B. I've read this about 20 times now and what I got from it was if someone unrelated to me forces their way into my house or if I stumble upon them in my house I can shoot them as I am "presumed to have held a reasonable fear of threat of imminent death or serious bodily injury" in such a situation.
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