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Old June 4, 2009, 11:43 AM   #26
Slopemeno
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Prone them out, cover them, call the cops.
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Old June 4, 2009, 12:22 PM   #27
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While you have them sprawled out on the floor.....

And covering them with your gun, grab your cell phone camera or digital camera and take a few 'not so happy snaps' of them, so if they get away, you have a nice 'snap' of them to give to the cops

Hey, I just thought of something! Take their photo, then steal thier watch, wallet and cell phone or anything else valuable.... then kick them out & tell 'em next time you'll shoot

Saves alot of hassle
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Old June 4, 2009, 12:31 PM   #28
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Actually.....

It would be quite funny (apart from the danger bit) if someone broke in, you bail him up, one holds the gun on him firmly face planted on the floor, the other cuffs him, hog tied (Knees tied together, legs bent up at the knees (cable/zip ties are good))..... when the cops arrive, you are sitting there watching TV, coffee in one hand, toast & jam in the other...... you just point at him squirming on the ground.... and tell the cops "there he is, he interupted my SWMBO's favorite show on the tube, she got cranky and sorted him out for you"

The cops would get a shock
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Old June 4, 2009, 12:49 PM   #29
David Armstrong
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Don't cuff people. It is hard to do right without training and still dangerous to do with training. And as others have said, why? Why do you want to keep the BG around? Why do you want to expose yourself to more danger? Why do you want to take the unnecessary chance with the legal issue? There is absolutely no upside, just lots of downside.
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Old June 4, 2009, 12:54 PM   #30
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Zespectre nailed it.
Opens you up to civil and possibly criminal charges.

If you are justified in it, keep in mind that it is not easy to get cuffs on a person. Ever wonder why you see four or five police officers on one suspect to put the cuffs on? Its because its necessary!

Also keep in mind that if you do cuff someone, their safety is now YOUR responsibility.
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Old June 4, 2009, 01:07 PM   #31
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I urge anyone that thinks cuffing someone as a restraining measure is a good idea, should get a friend who will let you try it on them.

Even with minimal resistance, most people will be unable to cuff someone, short of braining them. Just squirming around makes it very difficult. Unless you have actually tried this on a resisting person, you cannot imagine how difficult it can be.
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Old June 4, 2009, 01:18 PM   #32
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HEY... I know what I'm doin' i watch 2 episodes of COPS everyday!
Seriously though I would go after it with alot of forethought (likely wouldn't try it with forethought in play)... A person holding the gun on them could be bad as they would likely be shot in the back or back of the head if they resist...
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Old June 4, 2009, 01:29 PM   #33
Shadi Khalil
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Quote:
1. possibility of charges such as false imprisonment and kid napping come to mind.
2. um why wouldn't some one at gun point comply with any orders you give, even to stay still
3. I am wondering where these thoughts come from it leaves me highly curious
1) I agree with you on that, if it were in a public place, say a street corner etc.

2) Turn on one of the ten different channels that are having cops marathons, you'll see ten dummies run form police at gun point.

3) I think these thoughts come form having a pair of cuffs and wondering if he could legally use them.

I think that if the cuffing happened at your home you could avoid allot of the problems that could arise in a public place. I can see how its a good idea. I spend allot of time at my mom and dads who live about 30 minutes away. They live in a real big house on a decent size piece of property (3 acers, allot for the area). If someone broke in and I was able to detain them, cuffs would be a God send. The house has so many rooms, windows, entrances and exits, if there was more than one they would have plenty of room to wiggle. Having one cuffed gives me more room to wiggle as well. Maybe I'll get a pair of cuffs!

Last edited by Shadi Khalil; June 4, 2009 at 02:22 PM.
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Old June 4, 2009, 01:41 PM   #34
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teifman

you could always keep a few sets of cable/zip ties assembled like cuffs, around 'just in case'

Even if you can't cuff their hands together, you can cuff them TO something (so they cant charge at you.... without bringing the sofa with them)
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Old June 4, 2009, 03:42 PM   #35
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hogdog
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If the BG complies with orders to avoid being shot, I would have them splayed out on their face no matter hot pavement fire ants or any other uncomfortable spot this takes place. If they could be cuffed up I might consider moving them to a safer spot.
show the BG your CCW badge first, and he might just go quietly.
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Old June 4, 2009, 04:00 PM   #36
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If you get a BG at gun point and tell them to put on cuffs or turn around and they don't do either but just stand there - who thinks you can pull the trigger then?

Just stands there. Next move for you.

BTW, Policeone ran a story on how many officers got bopped when they have one cuff on, their hands occupied and you just gave the BG a nice impact weapon to apply to your noggin. And they are trained to do such. Still get bopped at times.
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Old June 4, 2009, 04:04 PM   #37
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definitely not outside of your home. inside your home i would be hesitant b/c you are putting yourself in a situation where you have to come into contact with the bad guy and either holster your weapon or lay it down. bad idea. tell him to get on the floor splayed out and explain the repurcussions of trying to get up and wait for the cops.
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Old June 4, 2009, 04:19 PM   #38
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>If you get a BG at gun point and tell them to put on cuffs or turn around and they don't do either but just stand there - who thinks you can pull the trigger then?<

"Not I," said the chubby short guy in the Gator shirt.
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Old June 4, 2009, 04:27 PM   #39
Glenn E. Meyer
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Get on the Floor - NOW!

1. NO
2. Doesn't move
3. Starts to talk in some strange language.
4. Starts to take a whiz on your couch.

People don't necessarily comply.

Next move - again.

On #4 - seen this simulated in two different FOFs - if it happens in real life, maybe one of our LEO friends know. Dave? Wagonman?
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Old June 4, 2009, 04:29 PM   #40
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I vote a big no on cuffs. In the event a BG you don't have to shoot decides to comply and hang around for you to cuff him, now, unless you have a second person around who knows what they're doing, have to holster your weapon and move to within grabbing distance of the BG to try and cuff him. Any cop will tell you that if people are going to resist, it's often as that first cuff ratchets home and reality sinks in then the fight is on at close quarters. The BG could end up with your gun and you could end up in your own cuffs...or worse

Most people don't realize how hard it is to cuff a person (even a small one) who really doesn't want to go to jail. When you see the dog pile of cops on some guy trying to get him cuffed, thats the reason. For a lone officer trying to cuff a suspect who is violently resisting, the options are few. Tie the guy up and wait for back up or wear him down to wear he can't resist any longer.
For cuffing a proned out BG we will generally use two officers, one to cuff and one to cover.

In a SD situation, if the BG complies and prones out, find cover and keep an eye on him while calling the cops. If he gets up and runs, stay put. Keep the cuffs for momma
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Old June 4, 2009, 04:34 PM   #41
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if he's at gun point, then to not get shot he can do one of two things....

1) just stand there and keep his hands up (or lie down is fine)

2) turn and leave

reaching for a pocket or behind the back or coming forward toward me after
a warning will mean shots fired.

And he will have been informed of such.

an escaped TN convict was found hiding in a woman's home and she confronted/held him at gunpoint. He didn't move until authorities arrived.

She simply told him, I would rather not shoot you, but if you move, I'll shoot
you.

I would think similarly.
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Old June 4, 2009, 04:38 PM   #42
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When police cuff somebody, they are detaining or taking them into custody. When you handcuff somebody, you are kidnapping them. Very few exceptions there.

Handcuffing is very dangerous (you can't handcuff somebody from afar). Keep you and yours safe and leave the cuffing to the pros.
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Old June 4, 2009, 04:39 PM   #43
Glenn E. Meyer
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That's the nuance. If you tell him not to move as movement is threatening then you might have a self-defense case. However, if he is running out the door - that's going to be a toughee.

But telling him to move when he isn't directly threatening and he doesn't - that's hard to justify a shoot unless he is sitting on you.
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Old June 4, 2009, 05:02 PM   #44
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waste of time

Don't put any thought into putting handcuffs on as a civilian.

There is no need to get that close to a BG.

It's like the movies you see where the idiot goes and let's the BG in. Your yelling at the screen, "Don't do it!"

DON'T DO IT!
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Old June 4, 2009, 05:21 PM   #45
ilbob
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Someone breaks into your home, you get the tactical advantage, and ??? Well, exactly WHAT are you supposed to do then? Tell them to leave? Do nothing? Say nothing? What?
What ever tactical advantage you had goes out the window if you try to cuff him.

I encourage you to try handcuffing a subject who is even passively resisting. It is not a safe or easy thing to do, even for a well trained person who has done it many times before.
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Old June 4, 2009, 05:45 PM   #46
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Someone breaks into your home, you get the tactical advantage, and ??? Well, exactly WHAT are you supposed to do then? Tell them to leave? Do nothing? Say nothing? What?
I'd tell him not to move.

If he obeys, fine. We wait on the cops.

If he runs for it, fine. The cops can go chase him. My goal is to keep me and the family safe. If I can do that without shooting someone, great. Run-away, run-away.

I have absolutely NO intention of getting close enough to him to allow a physical confrontation between us. Distance and obstacles are good things.
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Old June 4, 2009, 06:49 PM   #47
wayneinFL
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No normal criminal is going to let you put cuffs on him.

If he does I'd be very suspicious. He is either:

1. Very compliant, so compliant you don't need to put cuffs on him anyway.

2. Waiting for a chance to make his next move. Think about this: you're cuffing someone you think was so dangerous that you had to use lethal force. Your life was in danger from this guy. Now you're going to put away your gun and approach him with cuffs? You're going to get within arms' reach and give him a chance to get weapons like your gun and handcuffs. Don't forget those handcuffs will turn into a mace with one end hooked on.

There are also liability issues, but they've been covered pretty well.

Cuffs are a bad idea. Have the guy prone out with his face down, and stay behind him. Or make him drop his pants.

Last edited by wayneinFL; June 4, 2009 at 06:50 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old June 4, 2009, 08:12 PM   #48
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well it appears I will just buy the badge and go after momma with the cuffs... Gotta use 'em on sumthin!
Yes I agree it is very hard to cuff the unwilling, Junior and I would go at each other each with a pair, he with youthful strength and flexibility, and weight advantage. I with treachery, skill and a determination advantage... He ended up with a front tooth chipped pretty bad and me left explainin' it to momma... I woulda rather shared the doghouse with the farting bulldog but couldn't open the doors in them cuffs she had me in... after a couple days I got used to them though
It was just a curious thought at an early hour...
"Mrs.hogdogs, I am officer Brent and I am afraid I am gonna have to cuff ya and ask you a few questions..." I may have to work on the ice breaker line me thinks!
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Old June 4, 2009, 08:30 PM   #49
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in wisc... false imprisonment for sure.... been there done that
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Old June 4, 2009, 08:38 PM   #50
hogdogs
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I was almost run off the road with my wife on my harley by a drunk driver...
I followed the guy to the county equipment repair shop. Guy runs inside, I grabbed his open beer and keys out of his car and wait for the cops to show up. Deputy not only refuses to take my complaint, but also threatens me with burglary of a conveyance and unlawful detainment.
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