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Old June 3, 2009, 02:43 PM   #26
Shadi Khalil
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Was that a shotgun or a Hi-point?
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Old June 3, 2009, 02:44 PM   #27
Hank D.
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The store keeper gave the guy $40.00 and a loaf of bread and a gallon of milk, he kept the $40. and left the bread and milk, why???
Some time ago my wife and I were In the Florida Keys, ( Key West ) on vacation and we were walking around the town and it was a cool night and I had my Marine jacket on, and some guy came up to us and ask me, Hay Bro can you spare some money for a fello Marine so I can get something to eat, and with that because we were on our way to do just that, Eat, and I said to him, I'll tell you what, we are on our way the get dinner and I want you to join us for dinner and do you know what I got In return? F--K You and he turned away and left. In the passed I have paid for other meals for people, If I see some one that truly down on there luck I will buy them a meal but I will never give someone money for booze or to stick It in there arm, no way. My dear Mother always told me " If you have enough water in your well, let others drink " Some other guy wrote In about buying a guy a cheese steak sandwich, which I think is great, I have no problem with something like that. But I will never help someone destroy themselves, no! Sorry for the bad spelling, Semper FI to all, Hank D.
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Old June 3, 2009, 02:49 PM   #28
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I really liked that story, but...

One, he better load the gun now that everyone with a TV knows it is unloaded.

Two, that is not a shotgun. It is a Hi-Point carbine.
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Old June 3, 2009, 03:20 PM   #29
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Sometimes an act of kindness is all a person needs from another. Folks just dont seem as charitable but I can understand with all of the imposter poor folk on the corners with their signs. I have offered food to these folk and all they wanted was the money. I even offered to take a few to the farm and do work for cash, was turned down.
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Old June 3, 2009, 03:24 PM   #30
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^ A got taken for a dollar by a bum with a crazy limp. I turned the corner
| and looked back and he was magically cured... Needless to say I think
| twice about my charity efforts
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Old June 3, 2009, 04:43 PM   #31
Shadi Khalil
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You people are unbelievable. this is a beautifl story and the op was trying to point that out. but you paranoid wanna b milisha troopers have to shoot the story down, with out taking in the facts
.

This is the tactics and training forum, people are examing and commenting on the tactics used. Why are you so worked?

Last edited by Shadi Khalil; June 3, 2009 at 05:17 PM.
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Old June 3, 2009, 04:50 PM   #32
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I just saw the story on CNN again, and...

...it is nice to see that they are referring to it as a "rifle" now and not a "shotgun."

It seems now that the store owner is receiving calls from all over the country praising his behavior and restraint.

I did notice that Jack Cafferty referred to it as an "automatic rifle" though when he said "I guess if you point an automatic rifle at someone you can convert them to anything."
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Old June 3, 2009, 10:15 PM   #33
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Maybe I don't get it. I hated almost everything about this story. The fact that it is such an unlikely outcome is why it is news. And it's a bad object lesson from both sides.
Don't brandish a deadly weapon during a robbery and expect mercy.
Don't brandish an empty weapon (the bat was actually more lethal) in defense and expect success.

I'm not advocating shoot first, convert later; just be ready to shoot if the bad guy doesn't fall down crying and begging for (fill in prophet of your choice).
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Old June 3, 2009, 11:09 PM   #34
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I read this story yesterday evening. :-)

I hope the shop owner keeps his shotgun loaded in the future; *that* could have led to a tragedy if the bad guy had been more of a bad guy. But I really like the shop owner's compassion on the bad guy after he backed down, and his willingness to help him out. Owners of small convenience stores are not rich; they often operate at the ragged edge of profitability. His generosity was all the more impressive given that it cost him money and supplies he probably needed for himself.

Unlike many Americans, I know and have been around a fair number of Muslims. I've met Muslims like this before, and they're the salt of the earth, just like Christians, Jews, and non-religious people who don't walk past when they see somebody in pain or in need. Wish we had more people like this out there.
I too have known Muslims like you talk of, one in particular who started out in this country working in a gas station, was nursing and going to school to be a doctor the last I heard of him. Great person. He carried a spent shotgun shell on his keyring, it was one a robber had discharged at him back when he was clerking at the gas station. It missed.

I can see him doing just what this clerk did though, had he been in that situation.

Many of them are very good and caring people.

I agree though, the clerk should have never spilled that his gun was not loaded, nor should it have not been not loaded, and it had better be loaded now.
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Old June 4, 2009, 03:02 AM   #35
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I highly agree, I really hope he has the sense to have that thing loaded in the future, now that everybody knows it wasn't.
I absolutely refuse to give money to someone who is begging, I would much rather buy them a meal instead.
As for the robber, nobody knows if he really did have a family to feed, he may have just wanted to get the heck out of there before his "luck ran out", we'll never know.
But I do know that if I had to look at my own kids and know they were hungry, and I had no means to feed them, I know I would d*mn sure resort to whatever I HAD to do to get food in their bellies. And I would hate to have to say it, but if that means I have to steal from your family to feed mine, than you better believe thats what I'm going to do.

And most of you will agree with me if you really take some time to think about it.
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Old June 4, 2009, 04:07 PM   #36
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Well now seems that guy with the rifle was caught in a sting selling bongs and such. Ya just never know about some folks. He claims he didnt know selling that stuff was illeagal.....
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Old June 4, 2009, 07:33 PM   #37
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No good deed goes unpunished...

Is the clerk a US citizen? Is that gun legal in his hands?

How many clerks have had their brains blasted out during robberies this year across the country? Do you honestly think this one bizarre event underscores the hundreds of robberies that went not-so-well for the clerks? The guy was probably high on pot--hence the uncontrolled bawling.

Anyone here honestly think that the criminal had some sort of grand epiphany and is now, as we speak, out on a street corner preaching the quran? I'd bet a cool quarter hes casing his next victim.

There is the newspaper, then there is reality.
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Old June 4, 2009, 07:36 PM   #38
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Anyone here honestly think that the criminal had some sort of grand epiphany and is now, as we speak, out on a street corner preaching the quran? I'd bet a cool quarter hes casing his next victim.
Not really. As Jack Cafferty said..."I guess if you point an automatic rifle at someone you can convert them to anything." Cynical as that may sound, I am betting his change of heart lasted only until he managed to flee the scene. The one thing I would have never done is give him the money. The food I was okay with.
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Old June 4, 2009, 08:22 PM   #39
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About conversion...
A protestant moved into a completely Catholic
community. Being good Catholics they welcomed
him into their community. But, also because they
were good Catholics, they did not eat red meat on
Fridays. So, when their neighbor began barbecuing
some juicy steak on Friday nights, they began to
squirm.
They were so annoyed that they went to talk to
him about it. After much talk they convinced him
to become Catholic. The next Sunday he went to
the priest and the priest sprinkled holy water on
him and said:
You were born Protestant.
You were raised Protestant.
But now you are Catholic.
And so, the next Friday, as the neighbors sat down
to eat their fish, they were disturbed by the smell of
roast beef coming from the neighboring house. They
went over to talk to the new Catholic because he
knew he was not supposed to eat beef on Fridays.
When they saw him, he was sprinkling BBQ sauce on
the steak saying:
You were born a cow.
You were raised a cow.
But now you are fish.

Or this one...

An atheist was walking through the woods one day when suddebly an 8-foot grizzly bear began to charge towards him. He ran as fast as he could down the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was rapidly closing on him. Somehow, he can't ran even faster, so scared that tears came to his eyes. His heart pounding in his chest, he tried to run faster yet. But alas, he tripped and fell to the ground. As he rolled over to pick himself up, the bear was right over him, reaching for him with its left paw and raising its right paw to strike him.

'OH MY GOD! ...' Time stopped.......... The bear froze ........... The forest was silent...........Even the river stopped moving ...

As a brilliant light shone upon the man, a thunderous voice came from all around, 'You Deny My Existence For All These Years, Teach Others That I Don't Exist; And Even Credit Creation To Some Cosmic Accident. Do You Expect Me To Help You Out Of This Predicament? Am I To Count You As A Believer???'

Difficult as it was, the atheist looked directly into the light and said, 'It would be hypocritical to ask to be a Christian after all these years, but perhaps you could make the bear a Christian?'

'Very Well.' said The Voice. The light went out....... The river ran....... The sounds of the forest resumed and the bear dropped down on his knees, brought both paws together, bowed his head and spoke:

'Lord, thank you for this food which I am about to receive.'

Naw... I think he was "A muslim for a moment"...
Brent
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Old June 4, 2009, 08:53 PM   #40
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Did the deli owner violate the first two rules of gun safety? Would you rather buy a lottery ticket, "defend" yourself with an unloaded firearm, or tell the perp your firearm is not loaded? It looks like the deli owner had a winning lottery ticket. Extremely lucky IMHO.
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Old June 5, 2009, 05:14 AM   #41
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1. the [] robber had a bat, what he going to do, shoot me with splinters?
There are several cases around here of bats being used to kill people. There is no way to tell how this guy would react - he might have decided he had nothing to lose by swinging at the guys head. Then, the shopowner would have had real trouble.

Just because the ending was good, this time, doesn't mean it couldn't have ended a whole lot different if it had been somebody else with that bat in their hand.
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Old June 5, 2009, 06:25 AM   #42
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Right...
http://www.startribune.com/local/45690797.html
http://www.waff.com/Global/story.asp?S=10274532
http://www.insidesocal.com/news247/2...ice-cream.html
http://www.accringtonobserver.co.uk/...beat_up_barman
http://www.courant.com/news/local/hr...,5320157.story

Baseball bat wielding robbers certainly are at least sometimes successful and can easily do real harm or cause death of victims.
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Old June 8, 2009, 09:17 AM   #43
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No good deed goes unpunished

Just read the following article. Seems like the store owner might be fined $30,000 for selling drug paraphernalia.
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Old June 8, 2009, 02:02 PM   #44
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Very silly story.
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Old June 8, 2009, 02:30 PM   #45
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I am glad everything worked out for him as it did, but I am with agreement with the majority here. Using an unloaded firearm for defense is foolish, and the results could have been a lot less favorable. When it comes right down to it, some guns make decent clubs when they are unloaded. A Hi-Point Carbine is not one of them.

Additionally, I think keeping an unloaded firearm for defense is foolish because it undermines the basic concept. We all accept that weather they are designed for it or not, firearms are capable of inflicting deadly force. If this fact is nearly as sobering for you as it is for me, it accounts for what has been, so far (knock on wood), a completely pleasant and accident free 26-year life heavily infused with guns on a daily basis. This fundamentally accepted fact is the reason why firearms are legally considered lethal force by most states and jurisdictions, regardless of whether they are discharged or even loaded.

So most states will hold brandishing a firearm, even if it is unloaded, as brandishing a lethal weapon, at least by my understanding. Most states will hold you accountable if you shoot to wound an attacker for this same reason. This is because presenting a firearm is legally considered lethal force. If wounding or frightening an attacker is all that is required, many states will hold you legally accountable for escalating the situation with lethal force when it was not necessary. So presenting an unloaded firearm at the very least holds you to all legal risks associated with using a firearm without providing you with the capabilities to defend yourself if the firearm is actually necessary. This guy would have been better off, morally and legally speaking, with a baseball bat. As he was clearly unwilling and unable to use lethal force, he had no business using a firearm for self-defense. Being ready, willing, and able to use lethal force is a responsibility we all accept when we decide to keep firearms for self-defense. Even though most of us acknowledge that this is almost the worst case scenario, we accept the risk and that is what makes us legal, responsible gun owners. Those unwilling to accept these risks are best served pursuing other means to defend themselves.

It sucks that we live in a day and age where our fellow man often proves to be untrustworthy, and where charity and good-will are often taken as signs of weakness. But there is a difference between an act of kindness and an act of foolishness. This was clearly more of the latter.
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Old June 9, 2009, 09:33 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by MTMilitiaman
So most states will hold brandishing a firearm, even if it is unloaded, as brandishing a lethal weapon, at least by my understanding. Most states will hold you accountable if you shoot to wound an attacker for this same reason. This is because presenting a firearm is legally considered lethal force. If wounding or frightening an attacker is all that is required, many states will hold you legally accountable for escalating the situation with lethal force when it was not necessary. So presenting an unloaded firearm at the very least holds you to all legal risks associated with using a firearm without providing you with the capabilities to defend yourself if the firearm is actually necessary. This guy would have been better off, morally and legally speaking, with a baseball bat. As he was clearly unwilling and unable to use lethal force, he had no business using a firearm for self-defense. Being ready, willing, and able to use lethal force is a responsibility we all accept when we decide to keep firearms for self-defense. Even though most of us acknowledge that this is almost the worst case scenario, we accept the risk and that is what makes us legal, responsible gun owners. Those unwilling to accept these risks are best served pursuing other means to defend themselves.
Sorry, but I'm not quite sure that I follow your reasoning here. If you shoot and wound an attacker, how are you liable in anyway? That is called self defense. As I mentioned in an earlier post, a baseball bat is considered a deadly weapon and you are justified to meet deadly force with deadly force.

You have every right to defend yourself while the attacker is still a threat. Now if you shoot the attacker after he a no longer a threat (he surrenders or is no longer physically capable of defending himself), that will most likely be manslaughter on your part. I'm not sure how the pharmacist will fare since he shot the attacker that was unarmed and already down on the ground. If the kid was still in possesion of a weapon and was attempting to use it, it would certainly be a justified shoot. We will have to wait and see.
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Old June 9, 2009, 02:22 PM   #47
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Nice outcome, but personally I think its stupid to point an empty weapon towards a BG in such circumstances. Glad that no one got hurt.
Nah. It was a Hi-Point carbine, which basically means at worst, it was bat against bat. I'd take those odds.
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Old June 10, 2009, 02:22 AM   #48
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Sorry, but I'm not quite sure that I follow your reasoning here. If you shoot and wound an attacker, how are you liable in anyway?
Not shoot and wound...

Shoot to wound.

If you shoot an attacker and wound him, but he ceases aggressive action towards you, that is fine.

If you shoot to intentionally wound or maim an attacker, then as was explained to me, many if not most states will still allow you to be held accountable legally and in civil court. The reasoning is that if shooting to wound was sufficient to stop aggression, then a firearm was not necessary at all, and therefore your use of a firearm escalated the situation. This as I recall from years ago in a 400-level law and government course I took back in college. I am not sure if I necessarily agree, but as was explained to me, legally if not ethically, you are better off aiming COM. If you only wound the guy because he is tough or you are a crappy shot, so-be-it, as long as you get him to stop aggression towards you. But the use of a firearm at all is considered lethal force. Aiming COM affirms that you reasonably thought you were in danger of grave bodily injury or death, and having no reasonable or applicable less-lethal means to defend yourself, you used lethal force to stop the assailant in the quickest and safest method at your disposal.

Might be a good question for Massad Ayoob, actually.
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Old June 10, 2009, 10:05 AM   #49
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If you shoot to intentionally wound or maim an attacker, then as was explained to me, many if not most states will still allow you to be held accountable legally and in civil court. The reasoning is that if shooting to wound was sufficient to stop aggression, then a firearm was not necessary at all, and therefore your use of a firearm escalated the situation. This as I recall from years ago in a 400-level law and government course I took back in college.
I hate to say it but a justified shoot is a justified shoot. If the attacker posed a real threat that would result in your death or serious injury, then you are justified to shoot (in the state of Florida). If you shoot the attacker and hit him in the leg, causing the attack to stop, that does not make it a "bad" shoot. If the attack stops and the attacker no longer poses a threat, then you are not justified to continue shooting. I guess that is why you always tell the officer that you were in fear for your life and that you shot to stop the attacker.

One other thing to think about is shooting "off center" to prevent taking a life does not seem like a chargable offense to me. Like I said, if the it was a justified shoot and the attack stopped, then it should be a good shoot.
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Old June 10, 2009, 11:56 PM   #50
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Was that a shotgun or a Hi-point?
I wondered the same thing.
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