The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 3, 2009, 03:39 AM   #1
Chris2121
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 2, 2009
Posts: 6
Armed Citizen: Something tells me we're going to see more of this.

http://wcbstv.com/watercooler/bizarr...2.1028715.html

The story had a great outcome, but unfortunately, this is a perfect example of what I think will start happening en masse thanks to this economic downturn. I really like this story, because it couldn't illustrate better how I feel about guns: be ready to use it (I would have had it loaded), but avoid pulling the trigger at all costs.
Chris2121 is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 06:07 AM   #2
omkhan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2008
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
Posts: 117
Nice outcome, but personally I think its stupid to point an empty weapon towards a BG in such circumstances. Glad that no one got hurt.
omkhan is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 06:31 AM   #3
TDR911
Member
 
Join Date: April 29, 2008
Location: Punta Gorda Florida
Posts: 43
Unfortunatly the trend is that petty crime as well as more serious crimes will likely go up in this country as the economy tightens.
I suggest anyone who has purchased a weapon to get as much experience at the range, start out with some simple training on self awareness and self defense. And keep up with at least some form training once a year or more.
__________________
He who " Hesitates " has LOST.

www.TDR911.com
TDR911 is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 07:31 AM   #4
skydiver3346
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,222
Never, ever do that....

Point an unloaded gun at someone? That is the quickest way I can think of to get into big time trouble if the bad guy wants to call you out. He may end up shooting you and others around you, etc. Drawing your gun is one thing. Actually pointing it at someone is another (and if you point it at someone, it had better be loaded). When and if you ever have to actually do that, you had better be ready to shoot it....
skydiver3346 is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 07:43 AM   #5
THEZACHARIAS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 537
A gun is, at its core, a tool for causing injury and death to whatever is on its recieving end. If you dont have ammo, your tool doesnt work, and theres no point using it. I could understand if it was your last or only option, but until all other avenues have been exhausted, theres likely a better way to go.

That being said, I am impressed that the guy pulled it off. If nothing else, itll be a lesson to him (with huge flashing lights) to always keep his shotgun locked and loaded.
THEZACHARIAS is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 07:59 AM   #6
BlindMansBluff
Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2009
Location: Phoenix AZ
Posts: 95
You people are unbelievable. this is a beautifl story and the op was trying to point that out. but you paranoid wanna b milisha troopers have to shoot the story down, with out taking in the facts.

1. the [] robber had a bat, what he going to do, shoot me with splinters?
2. you can probably tell from the robber's dameener (sp?) that he really wasn't a hardened criminal.
3. please can some one send all these Barny Fifes to another threads because its obvious they don't belong here.

Ok off soap box now, but [] dude why does everything have to be so [] "Tough Guy" with you all. No wonder the Gun Owners and the NRA have a bad name, because look at you guys. always have to find a killer point of view (and rabbits and squirrels don't count) even when there is an act of kindness.
__________________
Gabe Vega

I just started a blog about my experiences being a blind gun owner and a target shooter, check it out at http://theblindmansbluff.blogspot.com

Last edited by pax; June 3, 2009 at 08:47 AM. Reason: cussing
BlindMansBluff is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 08:13 AM   #7
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,381
Quote:
A gun is, at its core, a tool for causing injury and death to whatever is on its recieving end.
No. A gun is simply a means by which a projectile(s) can be launched in a controlled manner via combusting expanding gasses. Whether or not it is used to cause death or injury is just a type of application for which it may be used.



Quote:
1. the damn robber had a bat, what he going to do, shoot me with splinters?
No, but he could beat you to death with it.

What is up with all the cussing?
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is online now  
Old June 3, 2009, 08:18 AM   #8
THEZACHARIAS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 537
Guns where built for killing things. That was the purpose and the application for their initial design, just like arrows and spears before them.

Target shooting is a relatively recent concept compared to thousands of years of hunting and warfare.
THEZACHARIAS is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 08:20 AM   #9
Lee Lapin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2004
Location: SE NC
Posts: 1,238
be ready to use it (I would have had it loaded), but avoid pulling the trigger at all costs.

At all costs? No, sorry, not me. If possible I would ADEE, but if not... that's why I carry a gun, as the last resort. And I agree, any amount of cash I have in my pocket is a small price to pay to avoid having to shoot someone. But some thugs are not content with robbery, they want mayhem or murder too. That part I won't go along with.

lpl
Lee Lapin is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 08:53 AM   #10
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,917
What you choose to do with a surrendered attacker is between you & your conscience. It really is a beautiful story with -- I think -- a happy ending.

I agree with other posters in this thread that the outcome could & perhaps should have been reached more safely by using a loaded gun rather than an unloaded one. If the robber hadn't immediately surrendered, the shop owner would have been in an uncomfortable and dangerous position indeed.

Pointing a gun at someone is guaranteed to frighten them, whether the gun is loaded or not. Unfortunately, there's no way to tell, in advance, what the other person will do in response to that fear.

Oh, one more thing, this one with the moderator hat on. We can discuss this without insulting those who disagree with us. Please do so.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 09:04 AM   #11
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
If a bluff works it is as good as the real thing. In this case the bluff worked, and that is a pretty good risk I think. Many would be surprised at the number of robberies that are done with broken, empty, or toy guns, and the number of defensive uses that involve empty guns.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 09:07 AM   #12
KingEdward
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2009
Location: The Volunteer State
Posts: 439
The thief was successful and got free money and food.

His MO was to put on sobbing act when the shotgun was introduced.

A complaint should have been filed regardless.

Glad there were no injuries.
KingEdward is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 09:13 AM   #13
Dragon55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2009
Location: East Tennessee
Posts: 811
Mr Sohail's compassion is commendable ... unfortunately he is now down as an 'easy mark' for others who are 'down on their luck'.
__________________
sailing ... A way to spend lots of money and go real S L O W
Dragon55 is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 09:27 AM   #14
djohn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2009
Location: CT
Posts: 507
Wow that was a heart felt story indeed and a happy ending, but I have to agree with the empty gun could have turned out bad.This is a good example for not shooting first asking questions latter,thats if the gun is loaded.


This robber was very lucky he didn't try to rob a different store owner with a loaded gun,it may have been his last robbery attempt.
__________________
Dave.
djohn is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 10:28 AM   #15
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 850
Well one thing is for sure, the hooded Gent saw his life flash before his eyes right at the moment he looked down that barrel.

I know of people who changed how they lived their lives for less graphic reasons! Let's just hope that happens in this case.
Brit is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 10:37 AM   #16
stephen426
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 2,877
It certainly was a suprise ending. Most shop owners would have either shot him, held him for police, or at least told him to get the bleep out of the store. I hope his compassion does not get him in trouble in the future.

I would not have told the robber that the gun was unloaded. If the robber was really bad, he could spread the word and the store owner would get robbed for sure.

BlindMansBluff, I know the idea of this post was to show a store owner's compassion, but don't be fooled for a minute that a bat is not a deadly weapon. What if the robber's sob story was just a ploy? Most people would be knocked unconscious by a single blow to the head. Multiple blows would lead to serious head injury and possibly death.

I am really starting to see how difficult things are becoming out there. I am in the fast food restaurant biz and we are tons of people asking for applications. My recent hires tell me that they have been looking for a long time and that they have been applying at many places. Fast food jobs are normally pretty easy to come by due to the low starting pay and high turnover. Even if things got really bad, I don't know if I could turn to crime. I guess when you are desperate and you have kids to feed, you do what you can. I'm sure most shelters fill up really quickly and I'm not even sure how many people they can feed any more. Since times are so tough, charitable contributions have plummetted.

I'll have to agree that this kind of thing (people being "forced" to rob stores to survive) is going to be more common. I will still meet deadly force with deadly force, but if all aggression stops, I will certainly not shoot. My gun will be loaded though. All in all, a good ending for the bad guy and a good deed by the shop owner.
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

Last edited by stephen426; June 3, 2009 at 11:42 AM.
stephen426 is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 10:43 AM   #17
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,611
I actually saw a gentleman wanting to buy a pump shotgun and blanks to scare bad guys at Cabela's. The clerk suggested some rubber buckshot to be less than lethal.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 11:34 AM   #18
sakeneko
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2009
Location: Nevada
Posts: 644
I read this story yesterday evening. :-)

I hope the shop owner keeps his shotgun loaded in the future; *that* could have led to a tragedy if the bad guy had been more of a bad guy. But I really like the shop owner's compassion on the bad guy after he backed down, and his willingness to help him out. Owners of small convenience stores are not rich; they often operate at the ragged edge of profitability. His generosity was all the more impressive given that it cost him money and supplies he probably needed for himself.

Unlike many Americans, I know and have been around a fair number of Muslims. I've met Muslims like this before, and they're the salt of the earth, just like Christians, Jews, and non-religious people who don't walk past when they see somebody in pain or in need. Wish we had more people like this out there.
sakeneko is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 11:54 AM   #19
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
I would have been glad to show compassion being sure he got free food and shelter down at county!
Give a bum $40 and he will eat, drink or do drugs for a day...
Teach him to work and he can feed his family for a lifetime...
Tuff enuff to rob... Tuff enuff to work...
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 12:29 PM   #20
djohn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2009
Location: CT
Posts: 507
Sometimes people ask for spare change,I had this just happen recently as just about to enter a little store when a man approached and asked If I could spare some change and that he was really hungry.I was thinking yea right probably for drugs.So I offered the man to come in the store and I will buy you whatever sandwich you want.


He couldn't get through the door fast enough and I bought him a philly cheese steak sub by the way there really yummy The store gave him a free soda and some snacks free.


When a few regulars that hang out there some off duty LEO incuded figured out what was going on, that a few gave the man a couple of bucks as well.I never heard a man say thank you so much.


What a Great feeling to help and If I can I will. IMO just small little things can help someone in desperate need to survive another day and possiable prevent a crime, at least for that day.
__________________
Dave.
djohn is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 12:34 PM   #21
Hank D.
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2009
Location: Lincoln, Delaware
Posts: 64
Armed Citizen

That guy In the store in Long Island just painted a giant bullseye on his head, Don't get me wrong, I'm glad everything turned out well, but that guy wanter the money and not the milk and bread and I bet his next stop will be the neighborhood crack house, This guys biggest mistake Is telling everyone that the shotgun was not loaded, he should have kept that little thing to himself!!! I know that it will come back to haunt him big time. I wish him well.
I hear all the people out there that hate guns, It's not the gun, a gun is a tool just as a hammer can be a deadly weapon, and I well know the can of worms I just opened. It isen't what you have it's the way how you use It that counts, the deadelyest weapon that we have at our disposel is the auto, car, truck or bus. Just how many people are killed on any giver hoiday weekend, the summer vacation season comming up and how many will be killed? Now the talk of the town is smaller cars, I just saw this little 4 seatter, and all it needs to round this thing out Is 4-6 handles on the sides so that you can be burried In It and save on a cofin cost, I dont hear them talking about smaller trucks and or busses that use the very same roads as we drive on. There is always many sides to to everything, so we don't look at everything with the same eye. Right now how many people that you know can say that a car saved there life, now ask the same question about a gun, Just how many people that you know of were saved by a gun! Now play along with this can of worms, How many people do you know of that were killed by a gun, and with the same eye, how many people that you know of were killed by a car??? So when you look at this from another view, it tends to look a little differant. A gun is an inanimate object, just as a car In it's a machine, like a machinegun, It takes someone to run the machine, someone to drive the car, some one to shoot the gun, but once we hange this magic mistery to It, it seams to change Into something else!!! sorry for the spelling!
Semper FI to all, Hank D.
Hank D. is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 12:38 PM   #22
LuckyStrike
Member
 
Join Date: May 5, 2009
Posts: 69
Great end to the story. If an empty gun is all you got against a guy with a bat who wants to beat you and take your money then its worth a shot.

I'm not bagging on this guy but I agree with most here that it would be very foolish to bet your life on a bluff...

have ammo.
LuckyStrike is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 01:37 PM   #23
Housezealot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 606
Quote:
That guy In the store in Long Island just painted a giant bullseye on his head,
Sad but true, I would never condem someone for finding a peaceful solution but the next guy with a bat, or knife or gun may not blink an eye at taking out a shopkeeper publicly know for being soft on a robber.
I hate to think that a persons generosity would be used against them, but we have all seen it a hundred times in one form or another
__________________
We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
Housezealot is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 01:43 PM   #24
stephen426
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 2,877
I guess a lot has to do with the robber's demeanor after the store owner pulled a shotgun. While the typical reaction would be fear, maybe the robber expressed genuine remorse. Maybe he really DID have a family to feed rather than a drug habit that so many are quick to assume. I'm not saying what the robber did was right, but we weren't there to witness what really transpired.

I bet that if I put up a poll to see how many people have been affected by the economy, I bet almost everyone would have to vote yes. I'm sure that there are many on here that have lost their jobs as well. Many people have worked hard all of their lives and got messed up because their employer went under (Dodge, Chrysler, GM, etc...). They were pretty responsible with their money, but jobs are hard to come by and there are bills to pay and mouths to feed. Government assistance is trickleing in at best and many people are losing everything. I'm sure few people would admit it, but if things really went to heck, I'm sure there are some of us on here that would consider criminal activity. There was a movie with Jim Carey that was kind of like this situation... Only in real life, it isn't funny.
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old June 3, 2009, 02:41 PM   #25
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
escalating responses

Presentation of a firearm may immediately defuse the problem, but it may also escalate it. If you run the risk of escalation, you should be prepared to deal with that escalation.

Bluff if you want, but realize it's better to have ammo and not use it, then not have it and suddenly realize you really needed it.

I'm happy nobody was hurt, and I think it was commendable that Mohail wanted to help somebody who had just tried to harm him, but I think it was a bad idea for him to use an unloaded shotgun and an even worse idea for him to tell the media that he keeps it unloaded.
MLeake is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13033 seconds with 7 queries