The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old May 25, 2009, 01:24 PM   #76
orangello
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Posts: 564
I am glad to see many of the views expressed in this thread. Many, if not most, of my peers have thought me paranoid when i commented on my dislike of the militarization of law enforcement agencies.

I would like to comment on the earlier comment regarding the lack of criminal prosecution as a penalty for LEO's on duty who make a mistake or violate a law. There was a murder in Atlanta, GA a year or two ago that involved a few narcotics officers who exercised a warrant of VERY questionable validity on a ghetto house belonging to a 90+ year old woman. The woman was murdered by the officers when they served a "no knock" warrant at her home; the woman did fire at the officers when they entered the home (she wounded one i believe). There were some criminal convictions/pleas in that case, i believe. I don't recall anyone being sentenced to "life" or "death" penalties, but some of the officers did go to jail.

When i was a child, i was always told that the police officers were there to help, and that if i was in trouble or lost, i should ask them for help. I don't see my friends with kids teaching their kids to do that anymore. I'm not sure i blame them; i do not associate with LEO's in any way. I don't do this to be unkind, but to err on the side of my own personal safety & problem/hassle avoidance.
orangello is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 02:27 PM   #77
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,134
Quote:
I have the same authority as a regular joe with the difference being I am not doing it the name of the state as you would... I GET to do it the name of myself or any one I choose to...
Good point !

Quote:
I am glad to see many of the views expressed in this thread. Many, if not most, of my peers have thought me paranoid when i commented on my dislike of the militarization of law enforcement agencies.
Welcome orangello You will find lots of stimulating discussions here.

You are not so much paranoid as wisely cautious. I think everyone recognizes that there is a problem from both sides of the line, there likely is no easy solution but, discussion brings about education and knowledge is a strong tool.

Quote:
I would like to comment on the earlier comment regarding the lack of criminal prosecution as a penalty for LEO's on duty who make a mistake or violate a law. There was a murder in Atlanta, GA a year or two ago that involved a few narcotics officers who exercised a warrant of VERY questionable validity on a ghetto house belonging to a 90+ year old woman. The woman was murdered by the officers when they served a "no knock" warrant at her home; the woman did fire at the officers when they entered the home (she wounded one i believe). There were some criminal convictions/pleas in that case, i believe. I don't recall anyone being sentenced to "life" or "death" penalties, but some of the officers did go to jail.
We did discuss this unfortunate incident at some length...If I (or someone else ) can find a link to the thread I will post it, made for a good discussion. In this particular case the media spotlight was the factor that finally brought about the arrests and convictions of the responsible parties.

As someone pointed out earlier, Police functioned basically in stealth mode for so many years that folks got used to the "Adam-12" stereotype and did not recognize what was really happening until technology advancements both privately, and in the media, began to illuminate such incidents and make them harder to just disappear or be obscured so easily.

Quote:
When i was a child, i was always told that the police officers were there to help, and that if i was in trouble or lost, i should ask them for help. I don't see my friends with kids teaching their kids to do that anymore. I'm not sure i blame them; i do not associate with LEO's in any way. I don't do this to be unkind, but to err on the side of my own personal safety & problem/hassle avoidance.
Today 01:17 PM
I think most officers are good, decent, honorable individuals that have a difficult job to do and, just want to do their best and go home at night. It's not so much the individual officer that has issues so much as the system in general.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -

Last edited by OuTcAsT; May 25, 2009 at 02:57 PM.
OuTcAsT is online now  
Old May 25, 2009, 03:04 PM   #78
Wagonman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 982
The difference is that I am required to use said deadly force in a particular situation.


This nonsense about not telling kids that police are there to help is one of the most tin foil statements I have ever heard.
Wagonman is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 04:07 PM   #79
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,134
Quote:
The difference is that I am required to use said deadly force in a particular situation.
So you are going to tell me that IL. Law Requires you to use said force as opposed to being "justified in using" force, as a typical ( maybe not in Chicago ) CCW is ? Please point me in the direction of the law that requires you to do that, I would be interested in reading that statute.

Quote:
This nonsense about not telling kids that police are there to help is one of the most tin foil statements I have ever heard.
I know that sometimes a reality check can be a difficult pill to swallow but, do you remember a post from earlier in this thread? to wit:


By OuTcAsT

Quote:
Try a little introspection; "Why doesn't the public respect me"?
Your response was:

By Wagonman

Quote:
What public is that?

Mr. Wagonman, meet the public. It should come as no surprise to you that the folks younger than you or I, show so little respect or trust in the uniformed officer anymore.
They have grown up in a world where a police officer is, (in your own words) akin to a soldier. And when you picture a soldier you usually associate that picture with war, violence, and death, not peace, tranquility and "helpfulness". When they sit at home and watch "Cops" they see police officers executing no-knock raids, tackling suspects, tasering individuals, and people going to jail. They do not equate the fact that ordinary looking guy in cuffs may be the bad guy, just that they don't want that kind of treatment. As time goes on that feeling perpetuates it's self and you have a public that views you as what you aspire to be...A soldier.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -
OuTcAsT is online now  
Old May 25, 2009, 04:13 PM   #80
ilbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2006
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 516
Quote:
This nonsense about not telling kids that police are there to help is one of the most tin foil statements I have ever heard.
It is a certainly a more complex situation then "cop good" or "cop bad". For very young kids it is probably best to go with the "cop good" model until they are old enough to understand under what circumstances and situations that is not the proper model to operate under.
__________________
bob

Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.
ilbob is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 04:40 PM   #81
orangello
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Posts: 564
Quote"This nonsense about not telling kids that police are there to help is one of the most tin foil statements I have ever heard."

I meant no offense to you personally, but i cannot blame these parents for having concerns. Other groups previously considered "kid friendly" are now considered less so: teachers, priests, kindly old folks in the neighborhood, etc. It just seems like there has been a great deal of change since "Officer Friendly" visited my elementary school back in the mid 1970's.

It makes me glad i just have cats & not kids.
orangello is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 06:51 PM   #82
Wagonman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 982
Now you are nitpicking. My point is that when I am working I am required to perform my sworn duties to protect and serve. A ccw is under no such duty.

There are indeed segments of the society that want to tear down traditional values, Thankfully a majority of citizens don't

The reason for the decline in regard for the Police is the general decline of society. The bad actors among law enforcement are a TINY percentage of Coppers, not nearly enough to justify the concept of telling kids Cops aren't the good guys.

Last edited by Wagonman; May 25, 2009 at 07:05 PM.
Wagonman is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 06:58 PM   #83
Dust Monkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 723
I don't think traditional values and police militarization go together. Kids, friends neices and nephews I teach, if they are of age to be polite to police officers, Provide ID if asked but do not answer any questions, do not consent to any search and do not invite police into their homes.

Young children should be taught to seek any authority figure if they are lost or in need of any help.
__________________
Civilian Date: 14 Century
1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law.
If you are not subject to the UCMJ, you are a Civilian. I don't care one bit what updated dictionaries say.
Dust Monkey is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 07:47 PM   #84
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,134
You misunderstand me I believe. I am not referring to the small number of bad actors, but rather the general rapport that LE has in the community.
It is not the misdeeds of the rouges that is causing the problem, it is the increasing "police state" style tactics that are being used, and the continuing us vs. them attitude that officers display.


Quote:
The reason for the decline in regard for the Police is the general decline of society. The bad actors among law enforcement are a TINY percentage of Coppers, not nearly enough to justify the concept of telling kids Cops aren't the good guys.
Let me give you an example, Both my children are now adults, They were raised around the belief that uniformed personnel, Including police, firefighters, paramedics, are the good guys. I worked as a ALS/EMT for a good portion of their childhood. Neither of them has ever had any legal "problems" During their high school years it was/is common for the police to randomly search their lockers, and cars on school property. Though neither of them ever had any reason to worry they still felt that it was an overly dramatic display. It is also common practice for young people to be terry stopped and, while no citations are issued, the teens are questioned, and even offered cash bribes er "rewards" if they would become informants on their classmates. My daughter felt it was a "creepy" experience, my son felt it was harassment. This greatly influenced their view of LE in general. My son's girlfriend is quite bright and articulate, and she was threatened with arrest if she did not consent to a search of her vehicle. She had nothing to hide, and was willing to stand up for her principles, she called the bluff and won, but that influenced her perception as well.

My point is this, you do not have to "tell" children something for them to draw their own conclusions from experience. There is no doubt in my mind that they will probably not be as willing to portray LE as the good guys as I was. I will postulate that what you refer to as the "general decline of society" is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -

Last edited by OuTcAsT; May 25, 2009 at 07:56 PM.
OuTcAsT is online now  
Old May 25, 2009, 07:56 PM   #85
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,134
deleted a double tap, sorry.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -

Last edited by OuTcAsT; May 25, 2009 at 10:40 PM.
OuTcAsT is online now  
Old May 25, 2009, 09:04 PM   #86
Dust Monkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 723
OuTcAsT,

Stop it. Your providing way too much "real world" common sense to the discussion.
__________________
Civilian Date: 14 Century
1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law.
If you are not subject to the UCMJ, you are a Civilian. I don't care one bit what updated dictionaries say.
Dust Monkey is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 10:28 PM   #87
bigger hammer
Member
 
Join Date: June 1, 1999
Posts: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust Monkey
The militant attitude that is all consuming in today’s LE is scary. Police should not act like soldiers. Soldiers are trained to kill, period. They are trained to seek out an enemy and kill. They have that mindset instilled during basic training and advanced training. In police schools across the country, that same mindset is being taught. And this is where the two jobs, military and police, clash. A police officers job is not to kill an enemy. It is to prevent crime and arrest those who are a danger to the populace, and to do that while respecting established laws and the civil rights of the population, that also includes the civil rights of the suspect/criminal.
Wondering if you have any evidence to support the emboldened statement? I've been to many "police schools" across the US and have never seen such a "mindset" being taught.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust Monkey
More training in civil rights is needed in today’s LE schools.
As a matter of fact today's' "LE schools" (btw do you mean police academies?) have about ten times more curriculum on civil rights than they did about 25 years ago.
bigger hammer is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 10:39 PM   #88
Dust Monkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 723
Quote:
As a matter of fact today's' "LE schools" (btw do you mean police academies?) have about ten times more curriculum on civil rights than they did about 25 years ago.
Well, if so. Why the 2 incidents that are at the root of this thread. The El Monte Officer is, IMO, from the video guilty of assault and violation of civil rights. So explain to me why we have way to many incidents like this, yet more civil rights training being taught, are happening. The 2 dont mesh.
__________________
Civilian Date: 14 Century
1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law.
If you are not subject to the UCMJ, you are a Civilian. I don't care one bit what updated dictionaries say.

Last edited by Dust Monkey; May 25, 2009 at 10:56 PM.
Dust Monkey is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 10:46 PM   #89
ilbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2006
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 516
Quote:
Well, if so. Why the 2 incidents that are at the root of this thread. The El Monte Officer is, IMO, from the video guilty of assault and violation of civil rights. So explain to me why we have way to many incidents like this yet more civil rights training being taught, are happening. The 2 dont mesh.
He is not guilty until a court says so.

Maybe it is not more incidents but more incidents that find their way into the public view.
__________________
bob

Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.
ilbob is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 10:56 PM   #90
maestro pistolero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,047
Quote:
So explain to me why we have way to(o) many incidents like this yet more civil rights training being taught, are happening. The 2 dont mesh.
It's a little like when some moron snaps using an EBR or AK. The truth is it's actually very, very rare. If you look at the statistics, and consider the massive population base that the numbers are drawn from, you see that the actual number of incidents is microscopically low.

But, it's so horrendous that when it does happen, that it is publicized disproportionately and leaves us with the impression that it incidents like it are more commonplace than they are.

Summing up, police abuse does happen, it's always inexcusable, but much more rare than we might think.
maestro pistolero is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 10:58 PM   #91
Dust Monkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 723
I am pretty sure that for every video we see there are half a dozen or more we dont see and will never know about. I will search for some stats, I remember a map showing the wrong address no knocks. Hint, there are a lot of them.
__________________
Civilian Date: 14 Century
1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law.
If you are not subject to the UCMJ, you are a Civilian. I don't care one bit what updated dictionaries say.
Dust Monkey is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 11:00 PM   #92
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,134
Quote:
Wondering if you have any evidence to support the emboldened statement?
While it may be possible that Dust Monkey will provide you with empirical data, I will address your question with another question for you to ponder.

Given the incontrovertible evidence that is available from direct observation of law enforcement tactics in the form of SRT teams, No knock paramilitary operations, the adaptation by many officers of variations of BDU's as standard uniforms, are you suggesting that the officers are taking it upon themselves to become more "militarized" ? Or that this mindset is not a part of the curriculum at all ? If not, please enlighten us as to where the adversarial mindset starts to be adapted into an officers thought process , from an expert point of view.




Quote:
He is not guilty until a court says so.
He's "street guilty".
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -

Last edited by OuTcAsT; May 25, 2009 at 11:06 PM.
OuTcAsT is online now  
Old May 25, 2009, 11:09 PM   #93
Wagonman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 982
Quote:
During their high school years it was/is common for the police to randomly search their lockers, and cars on school property. Though neither of them ever had any reason to worry they still felt that it was an overly dramatic display.
I am sure if they are doing CONSTITUTIONAL locker searchs they had some reason other than contributing to the "militarized Police state" you keep bringing up.

Why should your daughter's feelings matter? Do the teachers ask how does she feel about homework?

Quote:
It is also common practice for young people to be terry stopped and, while no citations are issued, the teens are questioned, and even offered cash bribes er "rewards" if they would become informants on their classmates. My daughter felt it was a "creepy" experience, my son felt it was harassment.
It is a common practice for good reason, teens hanging around doing nothing is RS for a Terry stop. Idle hands are the devil's workshop.

I would expect the "stitches for snitches" arguement on a gangsta' rap forum not here. What is "creepy" or harassing about getting intel from community members about what's going on?

Quote:
My son's girlfriend is quite bright and articulate, and she was threatened with arrest if she did not consent to a search of her vehicle. She had nothing to hide, and was willing to stand up for her principles, she called the bluff and won, but that influenced her perception as well.
I harken back to previous threads and think it is ludicrous to play street lawyer. Although, the recent SC decision would embolden such folly. However, as I have said before the harder you make a LEO work the harder a LEO will work. I guarantee that if you had callled my "bluff" I would have laid down my winning hand "cuffs"

Quote:
The militant attitude that is all consuming in today’s LE is scary. Police should not act like soldiers. Soldiers are trained to kill, period. They are trained to seek out an enemy and kill. They have that mindset instilled during basic training and advanced training
Funny, I know scores of LEOs and I haven't met any that have a "militant attitude" I see professional attitudes, I see sarcastic attitudes I see "I don't care" attitudes. But, mostly I see regular guys and ladies doing a job that they believe in.

Quote:
Kids, friends neices and nephews I teach, if they are of age to be polite to police officers, Provide ID if asked but do not answer any questions, do not consent to any search and do not invite police into their homes.
Good idea inculcate them in not cooperating with the Police, because all the Police want to do is interrupt the flow of your day for no reason other than he is bored and wants to violate someones rights so it may as well be you.

I guess today when I was chasing the armed robber the people I asked if they saw the offender running should have politely provided me their ID and not assisted me in attempting to judge whether to arrest a violent offender.
Wagonman is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 11:23 PM   #94
Wagonman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 982
Quote:
So explain to me why we have way to many incidents like this, yet more civil rights training being taught, are happening. The 2 dont mesh.
Over the course of a year Police have hundreds of thousands citizen interactions with a insignificant percentage being problematic.

Of course if you live in the fantasy world of even one incident is too many then I who live in the world where excrement happens cannot speak your language.

I do not excuse willful unlawful behavior, but, I will not sanction someone for doing their job in good faith who makes a mistake.
Wagonman is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 11:27 PM   #95
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,134
Quote:
Quote:
During their high school years it was/is common for the police to randomly search their lockers, and cars on school property. Though neither of them ever had any reason to worry they still felt that it was an overly dramatic display.
I am sure if they are doing CONSTITUTIONAL locker searchs they had some reason other than contributing to the "militarized Police state" you keep bringing up.

Why should your daughter's feelings matter? Do the teachers ask how does she feel about homework?

Quote:
It is also common practice for young people to be terry stopped and, while no citations are issued, the teens are questioned, and even offered cash bribes er "rewards" if they would become informants on their classmates. My daughter felt it was a "creepy" experience, my son felt it was harassment.
It is a common practice for good reason, teens hanging around doing nothing is RS for a Terry stop. Idle hands are the devil's workshop.

I would expect the "stitches for snitches" arguement on a gangsta' rap forum not here. What is "creepy" or harassing about getting intel from community members about what's going on?

Quote:
My son's girlfriend is quite bright and articulate, and she was threatened with arrest if she did not consent to a search of her vehicle. She had nothing to hide, and was willing to stand up for her principles, she called the bluff and won, but that influenced her perception as well.
I harken back to previous threads and think it is ludicrous to play street lawyer. Although, the recent SC decision would embolden such folly. However, as I have said before the harder you make a LEO work the harder a LEO will work. I guarantee that if you had callled my "bluff" I would have laid down my winning hand "cuffs"

Respectfully friend,

Maybe it was a long day for you, maybe I was not clear in my writing, but go back and read that post in it's entire context, without parsing, I cannot believe that the "moral of the story" did not register.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -
OuTcAsT is online now  
Old May 25, 2009, 11:31 PM   #96
Wagonman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 982
Quote:
Given the incontrovertible evidence that is available from direct observation of law enforcement tactics in the form of SRT teams, No knock paramilitary operations, the adaptation by many officers of variations of BDU's as standard uniforms, are you suggesting that the officers are taking it upon themselves to become more "militarized" ? Or that this mindset is not a part of the curriculum at all ? If not, please enlighten us as to where the adversarial mindset starts to be adapted into an officers thought process , from an expert point of view.
Police department are Paramilitary organizations, it says it right in my General orders.

No knock warrant service is an acceptable and legal practice with reasoned justification. If you don't like it work to change the laws of the land.

What is wrong with BDU type uniforms----much more comfy and in my opinion more suitable for field wear, rather than dress pants

Quote:
please enlighten us as to where the adversarial mindset starts to be adapted into an officers thought process , from an expert point of view.
COPS and society good
Offenders bad
I think somewhere around the first day of the academy
Wagonman is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 11:40 PM   #97
Wagonman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 982
Quote:
I cannot believe that the "moral of the story" did not register.
enlighten me.
I answered the points that I had the most heartburn over.

Quote:
My point is this, you do not have to "tell" children something for them to draw their own conclusions from experience. There is no doubt in my mind that they will probably not be as willing to portray LE as the good guys as I was. I will postulate that what you refer to as the "general decline of society" is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
No don't tell them anything. Explain the errors of their actions and perceptions using the explanations I proffered above.
Wagonman is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 11:46 PM   #98
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
Wagonman, I am regretful to state that you have lost my respect as a fellow citizen... You are just a cop not a citizen! You type the words of the over zealous police tactics that most of us law abiding americans rightfully deem UNCONSTITUTIONAL and against the people you claim to protect. Ask to search my ride or home and you will be met with a slammed door in your face! If you ain't got enuff on me to arrest me and thus get free reighn to search than you obviously are grabbing at straws and fishing in a bathtub! As a child I was told the cops were out to protect me... as a teen they lied to me and my parents and my pop apologized to me for wrongly teaching me this... I raised my son and daughter to avoid police contact at all cost! In fact they have seen me try to provide cases for them to persue only to have them fumble the ball so now they, as I, realize if it was major enuff of a crime to dial 911it is best to handle it yourself and make sure justice is dealt!

We didn't say snitches get stitches... I was raised amongst some folks that taught "Snitches are a dieing breed..."
sad day when folks are willing to tell a cop they have little respect for them as they were trained!
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 11:58 PM   #99
maestro pistolero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,047
Quote:
I guarantee that if you had callled my "bluff" I would have laid down my winning hand "cuffs"
If you were, in fact, bluffing, then I assume you had no PC or RS. Are you saying you would then arrest someone in order to facilitate an unwarranted, illegal search? If I misunderstood, set me straight.
maestro pistolero is offline  
Old May 26, 2009, 12:10 AM   #100
Wagonman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 982
I don't bluff which is why I put bluff in quotation marks. If I have enough PC which is the traffic violation that engendered the stop I am able to make a physical arrest for said traffic violation and impound said car and inventory the contents.

I do not engage in the practice of making false arrests, and would not tolerate the practice by any LEO I work with. But, I will use every tool at my disposal to do my job.
Wagonman is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14872 seconds with 7 queries