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Old May 23, 2009, 02:16 PM   #26
Kmar40
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"Off-duty" and "on-duty" don't appear in our regs and policies. My creds don't say "authorized to carry firearms, make arrests, execute warrants, conduct investigations...." (etc) but only while "on duty". Our status and duties don't change in the slightest because I don't happen to be getting paid for that hour.

There is a good deal of anti-LE sentiment on this board. It's pretty easy to tell the wannabe badge-holders, usually the ones asking about where to get their CCW badge. I write it off to being guys who failed the psych evals or the types who would prefer to move to Montana, declare themselves to be a sovereign country, and then would be judge and police chief. They want the badges and perceived power so badly. Power freaks are everywhere. Even if they had managed to pass the psych testing, they'd be real unhappy to learn that real law enforcement still involves many, many levels of supervisors, prosecutors, and politicos reviewing your work.

Last edited by Al Norris; May 23, 2009 at 10:19 PM. Reason: removed response to now deleted post.
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Old May 23, 2009, 04:48 PM   #27
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There is a good deal of anti-LE sentiment on this board. It's pretty easy to tell the wannabe badge-holders,
Not everyone that likes firearms wants to be a cop. My brother is one and the pay sucks, the hours suck, the complaints and lawsuits by people he arrests sucks....


I prefer having money and weekends off.
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Old May 23, 2009, 05:18 PM   #28
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The advocates of gun control do not view members of law enforcement as inherently entitled to the special privilege of access to lethal weapons. They do not believe in the use of lethal weapons except in the most extreme circumstances and would gladly disarm most law enforcement officers along with average citizens. If law enforcement is tough today, think about doing the job with a baton, a taser, and a radio with which to call for special armed support when it is really needed.

The more differential treatment law enforcement receives today, the greater the jeopardy in the future. If law enforcement does not stand with the average citizens facing gun control today, don't expect the support of average citizens when gun control is aimed at law enforcement tomorrow.

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Old May 23, 2009, 10:00 PM   #29
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If your post has disappeared (or been edited) from this thread, it's because I made a determination that it was either general bashing of the police or it was a response to such a post - which would make no sense when the actual offending post disappeared.
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Old May 24, 2009, 05:41 AM   #30
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If law enforcement does not stand with the average citizens facing gun control today, don't expect the support of average citizens when gun control is aimed at law enforcement tomorrow.
I had noticed the Fraternal Order of Police were in agreement with the Park Rangers' emotional appeal regarding CCW in the national park system. Kind of irrational, and the next time i got the state donation call, i had to bring it up, so i would agree.
It's a shame some can't talk about it without getting emotional, but still...i can't see the reason why an officers off-duty duty supercedes a citizens rights. Especially if the supreme court has ruled that protection isn't a government employees obligation even when on duty.
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Old May 25, 2009, 01:59 AM   #31
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I had noticed the Fraternal Order of Police were in agreement with the Park Rangers' emotional appeal regarding CCW in the national park system. Kind of irrational, and the next time i got the state donation call, i had to bring it up,
FOP is as bad as that Police Chiefs much more leftist than the average Cop.

I would advise against donating to the FOP, there are a lot of real Police Charities out there, although, I of course appreciate the thought. Donating to the FOP is kinda like donating to the Teamsters or SEIU which I would advise against also.
I would assume the LEAA is active in the CCW fight although I am too tired to research it 2 am and all.

I also want to Proffer a salute to all of the veterans on the board in honor of Memorial Day, Thank you for your service.
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Old May 25, 2009, 08:23 AM   #32
Bartholomew Roberts
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Why doesn't the NRA go after the police exemptions so that we all end up on the same page?
From a political standpoint, one of the major efforts of the Brady Campaign has been to divide a wedge among gun owners. Hunters vs. Shooters. Black rifle vs. Skeet. Cops and Military vs. Average guy.

Asking the NRA to "go after" exemptions that already exist in the law for the good reasons already elaborated in this thread (better training, better screening, and often a legal duty to act), would be a great way to further widen that divide in my opinion.

Look at the whole mess over "cop-killer" bullets - it is an excellent example of a stupid law that accomplished little; but was a great propaganda success for Brady. Without the Internet, all you had to rely on was major media reporting (and we all know how accurate and unbiased that is) - and the Bradys were able to make the NRA's attempts to modify the law into something rational into a "Hey cops! The NRA wants felons to be able to shoot through your vest!"

Personally, I don't see how reducing the number of qualified, legitimate citizens who can carry a firearm is going to help us with the broader goal of expanding that right. Ignorance breeds in a vaccuum of knowledge and having fewer people (especially authority figures respected by the public) who understand that carrying a concealed firearm isn't rocket science is not going to help us in the long run.
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Old June 2, 2009, 05:16 PM   #33
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"First, I'll say I support LEO's right to carry anywhere.....

with that said, the reason they can is because they work for the government."

So by the very same token. We as citizens, whom the government works for, are lessers than the civil servants we call police? Therefore they are given privledges based upon their employer? In Virginia the police can carry switch blade knives, expanding batons, or any other weapon that is illegal for any citizen. Many do buy switch blades. Personally, I like those type of knives and some other types that would be great additions to my concealed handgun permit, alas I cannot. I find it odd that a civil servant has more rights than the one to whom the servant serves. What is one to do? It seems in this modern age we the public are nothing more than cattle to be milked by the people who we employ and it is done through laws. Oh well, I suppose it is just deserts for us. Not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

One thing I can say is that if it wasn't for good citzens with firearms a criminal would have gotten away with being an accomplice to an attempted killing of a cop yesterday in my town. The so called more able police were a mile away searching for the guy. Lucky for the police a man that I have subcontracted for found the criminal in a drainage ditch directly behind his house by way of his alerted Beagle. Seems that the police are not the only people that can do a fine job stopping crimes. This thing of the police being able to do thier duty better than Joe Schmo is entertaining in the least. Makes no matter, the bad guy got what he derserved and it is a good day for the citizen here in VA.

Priviledge of particular people based on their profession is common and always will be. Though many of the reasons that they are so are not always very good ones, nor are they based on much experience or logic for the most part. Life is a comedy, keep smiling.
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Old June 2, 2009, 05:23 PM   #34
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And then there was a double tap...
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Old June 2, 2009, 05:40 PM   #35
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We as citizens, whom the government works for, are lessers than the civil servants we call police?
The powers that be are not going to change the law in this respect. I would elaborate on some of the reasons I think this is the case but it was this point in the thread that got me ten points for "cop bashing" the other day, and while I am not real sure what good "points" are, I am pretty sure I don't want any more.

Lets just say that some things are the way they are, and there is not much you can do about it.

Look at it this way. McDonald's employees get discounts on cheeseburgers as a perk of employement there. Cops get their own set of perks for being cops. Its not about fair, or legal, or constitutional, or even whether it is a good idea. Its about the way things actually are.
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Old June 2, 2009, 07:03 PM   #36
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I can't personally own any single firearm or part of a firearm that every other person in the state can own, legally. The state (or town-whoever) can own anything they want and then issue it to me. But, I can not own anything "special" because I'm a cop.

The only exception is automatic knives, I can have one and citizens can not.
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Old June 2, 2009, 07:22 PM   #37
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But, I can not own anything "special" because I'm a cop.
But you can go on vacation and take your handgun anywhere in the country because you are a cop, even after you retire, and I can't.
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Old June 2, 2009, 07:24 PM   #38
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carry

When LEOs are off duty they should be held to the same ... well everything that other people are. Because your job affords you certain powers does not mean you have more rights then the average citizen when off duty. That being said I should not be an issue because ALL citizens should have the right to carry as police officers do. I take small offence to the suggestion that somehow LEOs are considered better people and therefore deserve the right to carry when and where I cannot. Again that being said NO way in hades you could pay me what LOEs make to take the insane risks they take on the job.

Look at it like this. The diff is not the right or ability to be armed for ALL citizens but that while on duty LEOs have the powers afforded to them as police. Being a LEO is not about carrying a gun it is about the other things you do and a gun is just a tool that while on duty they have a greater freedom with.
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Old June 2, 2009, 08:47 PM   #39
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Yup, I can carry my gun anywhere even after retired. But, I also have a duty to act when others do not (off duty-not retired). I also have to qualify to the same standards as active cops as often as they do, with each gun I carry off duty or retired. Its a lot of BS to go through to carry your gun out of state and off duty, etc.

Without getting into a "I know this cop and he is the worst shot ever and doesn't take care of his weapons and wow all cops are crappy shots" debate, cops are trained more than the average bear. I know there are some people out there that outshoot a SWAT team and train more than cops, however your average bear does not. Thats a big plus when allowing cops to carry from sea to shining sea. My fiance' just took the NRA safety class to get her pistol permit. She came home from the class and said "Wow, I didn't learn a thing. That class was a joke. I can't believe there are people carrying guns with just that class. All they talked about was how the cops are coming to take your guns away." No joke.
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Old June 3, 2009, 09:51 AM   #40
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When LEOs are off duty they should be held to the same ... well everything that other people are. Because your job affords you certain powers does not mean you have more rights then the average citizen when off duty.
Most LEOs actually have fewer rights, in practice, than the average citizen does. And in many jurisdictions they also have additional responsibilites that non-LE do not have when they are in that off-duty role.
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Old June 3, 2009, 10:24 AM   #41
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So much crying and cop bashing, Sounds like 5 year olds, JOHNNY HAS ONE, HOW COME I CANT HAVE ONE.


I think I'll start a topic crying about private CCWers get special priviliges I dont.

In this state, those with CCW permits dont have to have a back ground check prior to buying a gun. I carry under HR 218 so I have to undergo the back ground check each time I buy a firearm. Base on the logic of this topic, I should start whinning until everyone has to go through the Back Ground Check. How silly would that be.

Don't ever say that street cops support this or that because the FOP or IAACPs support something. They are not the same.

There was a poll on Officer.com a while back stating 80% of STREET cops support the right of individuals to carry concealed. (I just tried to find the poll but couldnt. It was from a while back).

Anyway its not the Brady group dividing us, We are doing the dividing with this petty crap.

Based on the number of gun owners out there we should own this country, I've read there are more gun owners then voters in the last election. But we can't do anything because of all the bickering among ourselves. We deserve what we get.
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Old June 3, 2009, 12:31 PM   #42
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Anyway its not the Brady group dividing us, We are doing the dividing with this petty crap.

Based on the number of gun owners out there we should own this country, I've read there are more gun owners then voters in the last election. But we can't do anything because of all the bickering among ourselves. We deserve what we get.
Gun owners are not herd animals, by and large.
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Old June 3, 2009, 01:15 PM   #43
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Gun owners are not herd animals, by and large.
I would tend to disagree. The whole "sporting use" tactic the anti's use. That tends to take the "sportsman" out of the debate.

"yeah take those scary handguns of the street but leave my hunting rifle alone"
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Old June 3, 2009, 02:47 PM   #44
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I just got a great idea! How about instead of bashing cops and trying to bring them down to our level by taking away their ability to carry nationwide, we lift ourselves to their level by calling congressmen and senators to try to gain that ability for ourselves? Even if we fail to get the ability, at least somebody actually does have that privilege. We in no way benefit from removing police ability to carry nationwide.

Imagine that we're all in a vast pit, where the bottom is slavery and the top is freedom. Instead of focusing all of our energy on dragging everyone back down in the pit when they start climbing, we should work together to try to get everyone out of the pit. Maybe that analogy didn't make any sense, but maybe it did. You guys can see what I mean by now.

By the way, we can still vacation in states that will reciprocate our permits.
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Old June 3, 2009, 02:59 PM   #45
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"As soon as the uniform comes off so should any responsibility and extra privileges. "

I disagree. We ask them to do a lot of our dirty work and go face to face with the bad guys on a daily basis and you want them to have to walk around unarmed, even after they're retired? What kind of poorly thought out logic brought you to that conclusion?

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Old June 3, 2009, 03:07 PM   #46
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We in no way benefit from removing police ability to carry nationwide.
We always benefit when grossly unconstitutional laws are rescinded.
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Old June 3, 2009, 04:10 PM   #47
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<Decided not to say that, not very polite and argumentative>
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Old June 3, 2009, 04:17 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by ilbob
We always benefit when grossly unconstitutional laws are rescinded.
I agree. State [and Federal] restrictions on carrying firearms are grossly unconstitutional. If I had it my way, everyone would be exempt from these laws, because they wouldn't exist. That is not reality, however. For now, I'll settle for police being exempt. Baby steps may be the best way to tackle this problem. With more and more loosening of laws, and people not seeing huge consequences, besides maybe a declining crime rate, they may soon be open to more freedom.

I added an edit in red.
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Old June 3, 2009, 04:40 PM   #49
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As an LEO in Polk County Florida, I know what your brother means. Polk is about the only County in FL that I know of where LEO's give up their weapons at court to be protected by Wackenhut security guards armed with .38 revolvers. Silly rule enacted by a chief judge which has been in place for my 18 years as a cop here. Just remember that if things go bad while you're in court, the wackenhut guys will and Bailiff's will protect you

I'm all in favor of concealed permits for whoever qualifies for them. Heck, I wish there were more of them out there but for the people who say "make us equal with the cops" I have to agree with the poster who said if you want to take the background, polygraph, drug test, psych screening, neighborhood canvas and provide a list of references, then carry on.

Luckily, Florida is pretty good about issuing permits so we have it better then most states. Also, I have a CCP for the simple reason that if I want to buy a handgun, I don't have to wait three days. Even as a cop, walking in with a weapon on my side, without a CCP I have to wait three days...kinda stupid if you ask me but the loophole has never been addressed
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Old June 3, 2009, 05:03 PM   #50
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Also, I have a CCP for the simple reason that if I want to buy a handgun, I don't have to wait three days. Even as a cop, walking in with a weapon on my side, without a CCP I have to wait three days...kinda stupid if you ask me but the loophole has never been addressed
At least we got you out of the background check. Couldn't close all of the loopholes. Back in the 80's when the "Shall Issue" bill was working its way through the legislature, they came up with all kinds of restrictions. Fortunately, many didn't make it into law. They even have a provision which bans the carrying of a machinegun with a CCW. I always wonder who thought that one up. Did they really think someone would walk around with a machinegun under their shirt?
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