The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 19, 2009, 09:12 AM   #1
Dingoboyx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2009
Location: South East Queensland, Australia
Posts: 1,513
High velocity ammo in .22 pistols

I have a P22 (yes, I can hear y'all moaning from here ) and whilst searching for the best ammo (that my gun likes) my gunshop dude (top bloke) advised me against going too high in velocity. He said that the short barrel of a pistol doesn't benefit greatly (perhaps the opposite) as the projectile leaving the short barrel gets interfered with by the muzzle blast following it out of the barrel. He said that in a rifle, the bullet leaves the muzzle fast enough to not be upset by the blast, and if it does get a little wobbly from the muzzle blast, the bullet will stabilize in flight. The pistol, usually shot at closer targets, the projectile doesn't get time to stabilize in flight. His take, is that hyper/high velocity stuff in this pistol is overkill & perhaps not as good as 'normal' velocity ammo?

I use the gun for punching paper, plinking & cheap practice for my 9mm Glock, not SD or hunting etc....

I have used CCI standards (solids) now for ages with great accuracy & no probs at all.

Two questions,
1/ what do you guys think of his information? true? false? possible? rediculous?

2/ What ammo do other P22 (or similar 5" barrel SA .22's) owners use & what are your recommendations for ammo to suit & why?
__________________
Muzza
If you cant blind them with brilliance, Baffle them with BS
Be alert...... there is a shortage of LERTs
Dingoboyx is offline  
Old May 19, 2009, 09:31 AM   #2
5whiskey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 1,484
I can think of a number of reasons why HV ammo may not be best used in certain pistols. I've never heard of the reason you stated (muzzle blast causing the bullet to wobble???), but I'm not going to say it's not true because I frankly don't know. I don't THINK it's true... but I have no hard facts to back it up.

Most .22 pistols are blowback operated, and using the HV stuff in blowback pistols may or may not be so great on the pistol, depending on who made it. I'd say that your Walther could probably take it, but don't hold me to it.

Also, that very large muzzle blast is due to the fact that the powder in HV doesn't fully burn before the round leaves the barrel. It's called deminishing returns, especially in a pistol, in that you can only get increased velocity from so much powder before you just start wasting it shooting the round out of a 4" barrel. Some people say they often find un-burnt powder in the HV rounds fired out of a pistol. I've never seen it, but I've heard of it.
5whiskey is offline  
Old May 19, 2009, 10:24 AM   #3
chucksolo69
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2009
Posts: 255
I shoot CCI MiniMags exclusively in my SIG Mosquito with no problems what so ever. I think they are even recommended by SIG. I have never seen ANY gun, rifle or pistol, that suffered from a constant diet of HV .22 rounds. I shot at least 2000 rounds of HV .22 ammo through my Walther P22 before I sold it because of lack of accuracy. There were no functional problems with it either.
chucksolo69 is offline  
Old May 19, 2009, 10:48 AM   #4
a7mmnut
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2009
Location: NC Foothills
Posts: 1,150
I'd have to throw the BS flag on that one. Most of my field .22's, including a Walther, shot a steady diet of Stingers for years. A little more wear on the slide and spring, but worth getting what I wanted out of each one-devastating impact.

-7-
a7mmnut is offline  
Old May 19, 2009, 11:15 AM   #5
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,271
What he said about bullet stability contains some grains of truth, but I seriously doubt that any normal human can hold a handgun well enough for the difference in accuracy from this effect to be apparent.

Hyper-velocity .22LR rounds are often slightly less accurate than high- or standard-velocity rounds, but most of this effect can be attributed to the twist rate of the barrel, which is usually optimized for 36-40gr bullets rather than the lightweight 32gr bullets used in many hyper-velocity loads. Some of the accuracy loss also occurs because the bullet may attain supersonic velocity from a pistol barrel, but just barely, and its velocity may decay into the transonic range before reaching the target. Transonic wave drag causes severe bullet drop.*

High-quality, highly accurate target ammo is generally standard-velocity, but it's not more accurate because of less muzzle blast- it's more accurate because of better quality control during production, and because these rounds are highly unlikely to reach supersonic speeds from a pistol barrel.

*Although it causes severe bullet drop, transonic wave drag has the positive effect of making you seem really smart when you talk about it at the range or the gun store.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak
carguychris is offline  
Old May 19, 2009, 01:47 PM   #6
NWCP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2006
Posts: 1,742
Not sure about what you were told. I've fired high velocity ammo though my pistols and find that the best accuracy comes from standard, or sub sonic ammo particularly in the shorter barreled guns. Do yourself a favor and stick with CCI Standard Velocity. It has always performed well for me.
NWCP is offline  
Old May 19, 2009, 01:59 PM   #7
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 11,340
My experience with shooting HV ammo in a pistol agrees with the recommendation of your "gun bloke", standard velocity ammo is the most accurate, HV ammo tends to scatter a bit, and hyer-velocity ammo is all over the place. Example: I shoot a Ruger Government Target Model with a 7-1/2" heavy barrel. CCI Green Tag ammo goes into about 1-1/2"-2" at 25 yds, CCI Mini-Mags go into about 3-1/2"-4" at 25 yds, and CCI Stingers are all over the place with no rhyme or reason, about 7"-8". While I am sure the HV and hyper-velocity ammo is faster even out of a pistol, the poor accuracy pretty much defeats the purpose of shooting it for any reason.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Taylor Machine
Scorch is offline  
Old May 19, 2009, 10:12 PM   #8
Dingoboyx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2009
Location: South East Queensland, Australia
Posts: 1,513
Hmmmmm

Could be some truth in it? Perhaps some of the loss of accuracy might come from muzzle blast interference?

Yup, I am very happy with CCI standards, my P22 eats it all day and is suprisingly accurate.

My gunshop dude is the owner & very knowlegeable, his father owns the other gunshop locally (yup, monopoly is alive & well, down under) & what dad don't know aint worth knowing.... might have to give him a call

Chucksolo, maybe this is why your P22 was inaccurate? Mine definately isn't (unless I'm having a bad day)

Still interested in further comments.... thanks guys
__________________
Muzza
If you cant blind them with brilliance, Baffle them with BS
Be alert...... there is a shortage of LERTs
Dingoboyx is offline  
Old May 20, 2009, 05:35 AM   #9
darkgael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 4,214
.22

The most accurate ammo, in general, is SV. Depending on barrel length, a .22 pistol may not benefit at all from the use of HV or HpV loads. Try chronographing the three types. The most uniform will be SV. There may be little difference, little increase, from the other two types. I found this to be true for SV and HV from my S&W 317 Airlite. Didn't try the Hyper stuff.
About Hyper-Vel .22s: Barnes' Cartridges of the World makes the comment that "In some instances, particularly in short barreled pistols or revolvers or any revolver with a large cylinder gap, these loads can generate much less energy than standard 22 Long Rifle high velocity loads. They may actually exit the muzzle slower."
In addition, CotW did fairly extensive accuracy testing of of Hyper-Vels. They found them good enough for hunting with a rifle, though even the best of the Hypers produced groups three times larger than the HV ammo used as a control and more than ten times larger than the best SV.
IIRC, some manufacturers caution against the use of the hyper velocity stuff in pistols.
Pete
__________________
"Only hunting and mountain climbing are sports. The rest are just games." - R.Ruark
NRA Life Member

Last edited by darkgael; May 20, 2009 at 05:56 PM.
darkgael is offline  
Old May 20, 2009, 11:08 AM   #10
chucksolo69
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2009
Posts: 255
Well maybe I was expecting too much out of the P22. However, my Kimber conversion kit will print 2-3" groups at 25 yards on my SA GI .45 frame. Best I could ever do with the P22 was around 5" groups at 25 yards. My SIG Mosquito will print 2-4" groups at 25 yards depending on the ammo.
chucksolo69 is offline  
Old May 22, 2009, 04:41 AM   #11
Dingoboyx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2009
Location: South East Queensland, Australia
Posts: 1,513
Chuck ^

What barrel length was your P22? If it is the 3 1/2" barrel i could understand the 5" groups at 25 yards, but my 5" barrel P22 is 2" - 4" groups at 25 meters. I am in the process of getting a 6" barrel conversion for mine, cant wait to try that out

http://www.waltherpistols.com/catego...n_Barrels.aspx
__________________
Muzza
If you cant blind them with brilliance, Baffle them with BS
Be alert...... there is a shortage of LERTs
Dingoboyx is offline  
Old May 22, 2009, 01:22 PM   #12
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 6,885
The gun shop guy is an idiot. Use whatever ammunition your gun likes best.
BTW- the muzzle blast comes out AFTER the bullet leaves the barrel. Bullets that are not stable when leaving the barrel will not "stabilize in flight."
__________________
Bill DeShivs
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old May 22, 2009, 03:30 PM   #13
mwar410
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2008
Location: maine
Posts: 234
my p22 would only function with hv's. in fact, I sent it back to smith and they repaired and test fired with hv's. that should say something.
mwar410 is offline  
Old May 22, 2009, 05:17 PM   #14
Motownstan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 215
Mine likes the Federal 550 bulk pack from Walmart. Mini-mags, Stingers and Velocitors work fine too. I like the fireball from the Stingers but $13.47 for 550 rounds of Federal is hard to beat.
Motownstan is offline  
Old May 22, 2009, 05:34 PM   #15
Maligator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2009
Location: Greater Seattle Area (PNW)
Posts: 114
+1 Motownstan

My Buckmark eats all different kinds of .22 ammo and is VERY accurate. I prefer to shoot the Federal 550 packs when I can find them. I just got an 8 box order in from Cabelas for the Remington 525 packs and am going to see how they fare.

However, my grandfather who was a .22 cal competition shooter also advised me that std velocity rounds were more accurate. If I start to compete then I will worry more about "ragged hole groups" until then...let the rounds fly and the paper die!
Maligator is offline  
Old May 23, 2009, 11:43 PM   #16
Dingoboyx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2009
Location: South East Queensland, Australia
Posts: 1,513
Bill

I have heard many folk say bullets can stablise in flight, and I can understand the principle of the muzzle blast disrupting the clean exit of a projectile leaving the muzzle of a short barrel. After all, a 22 lr round can be used in a rifle with an 18"+ barrel..... if the same round is used in a 3 1/2" barrel, there would still be alot of burning/expansion happening behind the bullet as it leaves the muzzle..... I dont mind if you don't agree with me, or Bruce fom the gunshop, he is definately not an idiot, been in the game a long time... all of his advice has worked for me.

I only posted this thread for the interest of others, some might be having accuracy problems with their pistols using HV ammo, and reading this thread, they might find that going back to standards might improve it, whether it is bullet disruption or some other phenominon, doesn't matter.... it opens peoples mind to experimentation, rather than thinking " high/hyper velocity ammo MUST be best for my gun".... which may or may not be correct

BTW, Ruger BM's have a 6" barrel, dont they? Every inch helps velocity & stability....
__________________
Muzza
If you cant blind them with brilliance, Baffle them with BS
Be alert...... there is a shortage of LERTs
Dingoboyx is offline  
Old May 24, 2009, 02:43 AM   #17
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 6,885
If the muzzle crown is true, then blast will have absolutely no effect on the bullet.
__________________
Bill DeShivs
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10039 seconds with 7 queries