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Old May 18, 2009, 12:20 PM   #26
sewerman
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here's a web site dedicated to the 10th amendment.......

seems there's must abuzz........

http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/


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Old May 18, 2009, 12:26 PM   #27
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secession
Lemme know how that works out for ya'...
That is all I got to say on the matter...
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Old May 18, 2009, 12:29 PM   #28
Bartholomew Roberts
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Texas talking secession? All I saw was a Texas Governor who has not been entirely popular in his own party facing a tough primary election against a more moderate Republican. The Governor has nowhere to go but further right if he wants new votes. He has absolutely zero intention of secession.
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Old May 18, 2009, 12:32 PM   #29
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Texas talking secession? All I saw was a Texas Governor who has not been entirely popular in his own party facing a tough primary election against a more moderate Republican. The Governor has nowhere to go but further right if he wants new votes. He has absolutely zero intention of secession.
And after all the big talk about secession, he has the gall to ask the feds $$$ to battle Swine Flu...
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Old May 18, 2009, 12:35 PM   #30
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The polls in TX are solidly against secession if you consider the entire state. There is support in the most conservative wing of some of the GOP. Perry is probably trying to get them to turn out for them, thus he panders.

A friend of mine was talking about secession in TX and I told him the demographics are clearly against the idea of the return of the South type of secession, esp. with our Hispanic population. He said maybe the Hispanics would join in.

And I told him, put his Anglo tushy on the bus back to Iowa if he is lucky.

Such silliness.
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Old May 18, 2009, 03:13 PM   #31
madmo44mag
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OK everyone CHILL!!!!!!!!!!

Let me say this and maybe we can all agree.

It is very unlikely any state including my own (TEXAS) is going to go through and attempt secession for a number of reasons.

The point of all this posturing is to gain attention to the fact the Fed has stepped so far over the bounds of the constitution and forcibly imposed it’s will upon the states that some states such as Montana, Texas soon the be Oklahoma and others want to be heard and the Fed to acknowledged their states rights as states.

We can go on for days like this with each other and each one of us have a valid point.
The real point of all this secession talk is to gain media attention and to hopefully awaken the sheeple of their state to the fact they are being unjustly treated by the Fed Govm’t.

If these states stand their ground and force these issues into federal court there is more ink and face time in the media. The majority of main stream media is bias but when these type of issues end up in the public eye, the media has only limited control and manipulation.

Now some of you are going to disagree with that last statement but hold on.

I firmly believe that the vast majority of Americans deep with in their heart and soul believe in the principles behind the constitution and KNOW their liberties are in jeopardy.

The problem is no one is willing to speak out openly, publicly for fear of being branded a nut job.
With states taking the lead and speaking out, “WE THE PEOPLE” can now come out of our closets and say “hey, I agree and you Mr. Federal Government need to get back in line or through our power as THE PEOPLE will remove you and replace you with leaders more in line with our interests and prosperity at heart.

People are people as long as they fear ridicule they will hunker down and mumble under their breath so they fit in with everyone else.

When the state stands up and makes these types of bold statements then the people no longer feel afraid and / or branded as a nut case because the STATE is a large group of people and they are part of the STATE.

OK, got my fire suite on, lets go!!! LOL!!!

P.S. many of you have seen some of my post that are "Angry" that's because I don't live in a closet and speak my mind and let my alligator mouth over run my humming bird ass! Why, because I do care and sometime just get plain unadulterated mad.

OK, fire proof gloves back on.
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Old May 18, 2009, 03:50 PM   #32
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^^^ YUP, that pretty much sums it up. Nicely said !
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Old May 18, 2009, 04:08 PM   #33
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It is an attention getter. I'm not sure how many posters here are aware of it, but a part of Minnesota threatened to leave the union and join Canada. "What?" you say. Yup. It was an attention gathering plea.

The little piece of land up in the "tip" of northern Minnesota, is called the northwest angle. It's there because of a surveying mistake, but no one made a fuss over the mistake, so there it is. It's the only state west of the Great Leaks (except the far Northwest of Washington) which doesn't have a "straight" border with Canada. But I digress.

The only way you can drive to the piece of land called the Northwest Angle is to go through Canada because Lake of the Woods cuts off the NWA from the rest of Minnesota. So, when Americans drove to the NWA to fish on Lake of the Woods, they had to come back through Canada which has different fish limits than does Minnesota. Lake of the Woods is an international boundaries lake. You can fish for Walleyes in the American side in the tip of Minnesota, but then you have to drive through Canada to get back to the US (assuming you didn't go by boat up to the NWA). The Canadians were nailing people with having over their limit of fish, and this was hurting the resorts up there. They petitioned to have the Feds negotiate a solution with Canada, but the Feds were dragging their feet. So the governing bodies in the NWA petitioned the Feds to let them join Canada. I'm not sure what ever happened as the news has died down now. I know they didn't join Canada.

By the way, to keep this firearms related, if you hunt ducks, geese, deer, or Bear up in the NWA, you're subject to Canadian laws when you try to drive back to the US with your game.
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Old May 18, 2009, 05:09 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by madmo44mag
With states taking the lead and speaking out, “WE THE PEOPLE” can now come out of our closets and say “hey, I agree and you Mr. Federal Government need to get back in line or through our power as THE PEOPLE will remove you and replace you with leaders more in line with our interests and prosperity at heart.
Here's some novel ideas. VOTE! Nobody can call you a nut job because your vote is secret. ORGANIZE! Join the NRA and any local firearms association. I have personally seen the power of the Tennessee Firearms Association turn back gun legislation. Maybe they will call you a nut but you'll be in good company.

Our system works folks, use it. A lot of others have and they got what they wanted and are getting stronger. We can too.

Sermon over.
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Old May 18, 2009, 06:52 PM   #35
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If your post seems to be missing, it's because I've just gone through and deleted all irrelevent or off topic posts or responses to those off topic posts.

Stick to the topic at hand - the lawful means of leaving (seceeding) the Union.
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Old May 18, 2009, 07:11 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by sewerman
[W]asn't the basis of the government founded on each state having full sovereignty[?]
Emphatically, No.

It was, from the start, shared sovereignty. Could the States treat with foreign nations? No. Could they declare war? No. Could they set their own weights and measures? No. Could they employ their own armies or navies? No.

Those things alone are proof that the States were not sovereign. Those sovereign powers were ceded to the central government.
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Old May 18, 2009, 07:44 PM   #37
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there is no legal route to secession. Secession is throwing out the rule book and saying, 'the old game is over we are starting a new one'.
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Old May 18, 2009, 08:01 PM   #38
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Yes John, there is.
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Old May 18, 2009, 08:06 PM   #39
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The issue of whether or not states could secede without the consent of the rest of the union was settled in 1865.

If membership in the union were so fluid what would stop congress from revoking statehood or kicking a state out of the union? A majority vote in congress is required to admit a state why noit a majority vote to remove a state?
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Old May 18, 2009, 08:10 PM   #40
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I don't think the current 10th Amendment movement is about secession (*), so much as it is about reclaiming some degree of independence from a bloated and overbearing Federal government.

So, here's a question. Say, Montana (just as an example) rejects the authority of the BATFE to some extent, and allows the manufacture of weapons in their state that are not regulated by the Feds. How well will that really work out, and for how long?

What happens when a Montana-only gun is used in a crime in New York? Do the Feds conduct raids? At what point is the line drawn in the sand, and if it's crossed, what is the state prepared to do? Will we have 20 repeats of Waco, or will the Feds back down? At what point do states recall their Congressmen from Washinton?

In either case, what are the long-term consequences?

At the very least, this whole phenomenon (what is it, 36 states now?) certainly makes a strong statement to the Federal government, and one I hope they take a lesson from. I just don't see it spiraling into full-blown secession, which would be a logistical nightmare.

Of course, my home state gleefully signed such a resolution with one hand, while holding out the other for stimulus funds.

(*) OK, maybe New Hampshire. Their resolution didn't mince many words
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Old May 18, 2009, 08:28 PM   #41
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Yes John, there is.
That's the ugly catch-22 though isn't it?
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Old May 18, 2009, 08:43 PM   #42
madmo44mag
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Tennessee Gentleman people do vote.
Problem is society has breed Americans to follow popular follies, beliefs, ideologies. They no longer think for themselves.
It will take some sort of media - political upheaval in the public eve with no holds bared before the average American goes - Duhhh, I must have missed something - back up, what's this, ect...
I believe all this talk of secession and soon to be court hearings, ect... will shake these Americans. Not all of them but enough that the current political socialist BS will come to an abrupt halt.
When this occurs there will enough media coverage the people will once again start to question the rights they lost and the rights they are about to lose.
Look at us right now on this forum.
Perfect example of how when people become aware they take notice and speak up.
By the way Tennessee I do value your point of view!

Quote:
Our system works folks, use it. A lot of others have and they got what they wanted and are getting stronger. We can too.
Are these the federally protected minorities???
Gay, black, Hispanics, tree huggers - the list goes on.
Just who are these folks???
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Old May 18, 2009, 08:45 PM   #43
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Talk of secession is nothing more than a bunch of posturing hot air. Bovine scatology. I can't believe anyone takes it seriously.
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Old May 18, 2009, 09:26 PM   #44
johnwilliamson062
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with this discussion now being strictly limited to the legal aspect of secession, here is my question:
Does it matter if secession is legal or not?
If it comes down to a state thinking it is in their best interest to secede are they going to pause at the fact that they will be breaking the laws of a nation they are abandoning? Will the federal government pause at trying to reclaim the state if they find secession to be legal, but not in the interest of the federal government?

Arguing this point is like arguing whether a run away breaks curfew at their parents house when they do not come home at all. Then arguing whether the parents have the right to restrict that runaways access to their clothes and other items which were left behind.

Whether it breaks the rules or not, is right or wrong, it isn't going to change the situation b/c one actor has abandoned the system and the other has total control within the system.

We are discussing this as if the UN or NATO is going to step in and lay down the law for everyone to abide by.
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Old May 18, 2009, 10:18 PM   #45
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We are discussing this as if the UN or NATO is going to step in and lay down the law for everyone to abide by.
Quite, that's an up coming thread. LOL!!!!
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Old May 18, 2009, 10:45 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by madmo44mag
Tennessee Gentleman people do vote.
Way too many don't and then bitch about the results. How many people who post and lurk on here are NRA members? Sadly,I bet a lot less than you might think. I am a life member and proud of it. They are my lobby group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madmo44mag
Are these the federally protected minorities??? Gay, black, Hispanics, tree huggers - the list goes on. Just who are these folks???
Yes, yes and yes. And others too. Michael Bane said on his podcast that he met with and discussed political tactics with some Gay Rights folk. Whether you are sympathetic to them or not you cannot deny that they have really turned public opinion about since the 1960s. And I believe they are only about 3% of the population (that number is debated but they are small). These guys told Michael how they changed public opinion by changing the language. We could and should do the same for guns. This is the much better path to change than this crazy secession talk IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madmo44mag
By the way Tennessee I do value your point of view!
Thank you sir. We are I think on the same side.
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Old May 19, 2009, 07:19 AM   #47
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It is sort of undefined to expect everyone to do something that is unpopular, isn't it? Rather like expecting everyone to vote for the candidate they like the least. Oh, I know it isn't supposed to be a popularity contest but I usually don't feel very compelled to vote for people I don't like. But maybe I'm just not thinking for themselves but just listening to the right-wing media on shout radio.

I haven't found it yet but do you suppose there is something in the constitution that allows a state to be expelled?
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Old May 19, 2009, 09:38 AM   #48
Tennessee Gentleman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
It is sort of undefined to expect everyone to do something that is unpopular, isn't it?
We live in an unprecedented participatory democracy. One man, one vote. If you won't participate then you can't bitch about the results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
do you suppose there is something in the constitution that allows a state to be expelled?
Read the article I posted earlier. The short answer is no a state may not be expelled.
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Old May 19, 2009, 10:03 AM   #49
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Tennessee Gentleman posted:
Quote:
We live in an unprecedented participatory democracy. One man, one vote. If you won't participate then you can't bitch about the results.
Yes, one man one vote, but a constitution hovering over those votes to make sure that the majority doesn't vote away the rights of the "people". Also, a constitution that specifically spells out that the federal government has limited powers and the states and "the people" also have the powers which are not ceded to the feds. This is the problem with the federal government and their public schools. They don't teach the students about the constitution and what it means, so when those students become of voting age, they will vote in a manner which tends to strengthen the federal government. The courts and the states don't seem to mind all that much in many cases.

However, there are still glimmers of hope and sparks of freedom out there. We can see this in the Heller decision and the Nordyke decision, where the courts have gone a little further than they had recently in protecting "some" of our rights. I view the federal government as still operating beyond where it was ever intended to. This is directly related to how voters have managed to sway policies to involve the federal government in more and more of our private lives. That is where the courts and the constitution are supposed to limit the powers of the feds, but it's not working as well as it was hoped for by the founders.
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Old May 19, 2009, 10:17 AM   #50
madmo44mag
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Yes, yes and yes. And others too. Michael Bane said on his podcast that he met with and discussed political tactics with some Gay Rights folk. Whether you are sympathetic to them or not you cannot deny that they have really turned public opinion about since the 1960s. And I believe they are only about 3% of the population (that number is debated but they are small). These guys told Michael how they changed public opinion by changing the language. We could and should do the same for guns. This is the much better path to change than this crazy secession talk IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madmo44mag
By the way Tennessee I do value your point of view!


Thank you sir. We are I think on the same side.
Well Tennessee you may have a point there.
I need to ponder that a while, but it has merit.

And trust me - we are on the same side just less than a 1/2 row apart. LOL!!!!
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