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Old May 15, 2009, 11:03 AM   #1
Glenn E. Meyer
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The Insurrectionist Idea

Since I buy from Amazon, I got this e-mail ad from them

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/047...2069150_snp_dp

It refers to a new book on gun rights in the USA.

Guns, Democracy, and the Insurrectionist Idea (Paperback)
by Joshua Horwitz (Author), Casey Anderson (Author)

The gist is that:

Quote:
In Guns, Democracy, and the Insurrectionist Idea, Josh Horwitz and Casey Anderson reveal that the proponents of this view base their argument on a deliberate misreading of history. The Insurrectionist myth has been forged by twisting the facts of the American Revolution and the founding of the United States, the denial of civil rights to African-Americans after the Civil War, and the rise of the Third Reich under Adolf Hitler. Here, Horwitz and Anderson set the record straight. Then, challenging the proposition that more guns equal more freedom, they expose Insurrectionism---not government oppression---as the true threat to freedom in the U.S. today.
The authors are well known anti-gun folk. Interestingly, we have discussed here about how the argument of defense against tyranny may not have so much persuasive power. Also that some of the revolution advocates come from one side of the political spectrum, etc. Can the defense against tyranny argument be blunted? We hashed that out.

I'm not advocating buying this - but if you are a serious combatant, so to speak in the gun rights arguments, you might want to see what they say.

NOTE: This post is FYI and I haven't read the book. Nor do I endorse what the blurb says. So don't argue with me about it.

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Old May 15, 2009, 11:19 AM   #2
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All revolutions, successful and unsuccessful, increase the power of government.
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Old May 15, 2009, 11:38 AM   #3
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I'm sure there will be lots of comedy in that book. For instance, what does the rise of Adolph Hitler and the Nazi Party in Germany in the 1930's have to do with gun rights in the U.S.? None whatsoever. Even raising the issue trivializes their argument - the Nazis imposed extremely stringent gun control/confiscation laws when they assumed power.
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Old May 15, 2009, 12:02 PM   #4
maestro pistolero
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Quote:
All revolutions, successful and unsuccessful, increase the power of government.
Except the American Revolution, which significantly decreased the power of Government as the world (k)new it for a couple of hundred years, at least on our soil.

Last edited by maestro pistolero; May 15, 2009 at 01:54 PM.
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Old May 15, 2009, 12:48 PM   #5
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Quote:
Except the American Revolution, which significantly decreased the power of Government as the world new it for a couple of hundred years, at least on our soil.
Unless you were a debtor, distiller, slave or Native American

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Old May 15, 2009, 01:53 PM   #6
maestro pistolero
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Unless you were a debtor, distiller, slave or Native American
True enough, but at least we finally got around correcting course on slavery, and debtors prison. Now for modern day prohibition. The Native Americans are slowly taking back the country, one casino at a time.
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Old May 15, 2009, 02:31 PM   #7
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It is not surprising the the antis would write such a book. The Insurrectionist Theory is one of those ideas that really make people who support gun rights look bad. There have been numerous threads on this forum about militias and armed citizens like here: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=354400 and here: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=347408and here:http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=337107 ad nauseum.

It is a really bad theory and rather kooky as well. I have always presented a challenge to those that espouse this theory to show me one instance since our nation was formed where the fact that we have private ownership of firearms either prevented or reversed a tyrannical act by our government(Don't even try the silly "Battle of Athens").

In every case where our governments local or federal have acted oppressively our democratic institutions have been used to remedy them(legislatures, courts, executive). The only thing I get back is "Well, you never know! It might happen!". I guess that is possible just like zombies and mars attacking us as well. Hasn't happened in over 220 years but hey one never knows.

It just makes me cringe to see this stuff espoused and it just feeds the antigun people, makes we gun owners look like kooks, and scares the bejesus out of most Americans. If I never heard that theory again it would be too soon but I know it will be back like a bad penny.
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Old May 15, 2009, 04:24 PM   #8
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I'm here to lay claim to my casino. I'd like the Bellagio please.
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Old May 15, 2009, 06:14 PM   #9
David Armstrong
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Quote:
Except the American Revolution, which significantly decreased the power of Government as the world (k)new it for a couple of hundred years, at least on our soil.
Not really. That is a common myth, but for at least 100 years people kept moving trying to get away from the power of the government, which began increasing the day the Revolution was won. As mentioned before, no revolution has ever resulted in less government, only in more.
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Old May 16, 2009, 06:15 PM   #10
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Well, people were already trying to move away from government in this country a hundred years before the revolution. In most of the early colonies the people that ran things really liked to keep the people under control. That's one reason for many of the things in the constitution. So as long as there was a frontier, people moved there to get away from what basically was what they left Europe for in the first place in some cases. If you like states rights you would have loved some of the colonies.

Later, people used the power of the federal government for their own ends, which is one of the reasons for its existance. Mostly that involved dealing with the Indians, which is another way of saying getting rid of the Indians.

Finally, before the revolution, there hadn't even been a national government. It was all colonial governments, thirteen of them (you probably knew that). It was likely not until after the French & Indian War (them Indians again!) that people in the different colonies began to think of themselves as American. Many of my ancestors came to Virginia between around 1625 and 1660 (and never left). It would be interesting to know when they began to think of themselves as American--or Virginian, rather than English. On the other hand, some branches had only been in England a couple of generations. They may have been really mixed up.
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Old May 16, 2009, 10:06 PM   #11
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why we have private ownership of guns

"I have always presented a challenge to those that espouse this theory to show me one instance since our nation was formed where the fact that we have private ownership of firearms either prevented or reversed a tyrannical act by our government...".


That's like trying to count how many times you were NOT mugged because you were wearing an unconcealed weapon. In any case, many people are waking up to the fact that we are losing more and more rights every day and that the Federal government is getting more out of control. Look at the recent legislations by several states with regard to gun sales and reminding the Fed goverment of states' rights. We the People own firearms for no other reason than to prevent this tyranny. That is also the reason members of the Fed goverment are trying to disarm the American people.



"In every case where our governments local or federal have acted oppressively our democratic institutions have been used to remedy them(legislatures, courts, executive)."


Not true. The American People were asleep when Congress sneaked by the Constitution and taxed our income. Guess which terrorists are going to show up at your door if you decide to claim your Constititional rights and not pay this illegal tax? The I.R.S., the F.B.I., the BATFE, etc. According to the I.R.S.'s own code, the vast majority of Americans don't fall under the definition as someone required to pay this tax. That's about 90 years of fraud, terrorism, murder, and extortion by the U.S. government so far. This is just ONE act of tyranny. Add all the other juicy tidbits from our government and you will see that Americans are reaching a breaking point.


"The only thing I get back is "Well, you never know! It might happen!". I guess that is possible just like zombies and mars attacking us as well. Hasn't happened in over 220 years but hey one never knows.""

You need to talk to the right people

"It just makes me cringe to see this stuff espoused and it just feeds the antigun people, makes we gun owners look like kooks, and scares the bejesus out of most Americans. If I never heard that theory again it would be too soon but I know it will be back like a bad penny."

I for one pray we don't keep hearing that "theory", but I'm not very optimistic it will go away any time soon, from the looks of things.
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Old May 16, 2009, 11:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrp0sitive
That's like trying to count how many times you were NOT mugged because you were wearing an unconcealed weapon.
No that's saying show me where any tyrannical act by government since our formation was turned back by armed citizens. Mayor of New Orleans Ray Nagin illegally confiscated firearms from law adibing citizens after Katrina. What stopped him? Armed citizens or a legal injunction filed by the NRA? We do not own firearms privately to "prevent tyranny" but to use for sport, hunting and self defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrp0sitive
The American People were asleep when Congress sneaked by the Constitution and taxed our income.
Didn't 3/4s of our states have to ratify that 13th Amendment? I think you might need a civics lesson.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrp0sitive
According to the I.R.S.'s own code, the vast majority of Americans don't fall under the definition as someone required to pay this tax.
Didn't some hollywood actor go to jail for espousing that one? C'mon you can do better than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrp0sitive
You need to talk to the right people
Yeah, they live in secret hidden bunkers in Montana right? Sheesh, these threads really draw out the fringe element and I was wondering how long it would take. This is just crazy talk that reinforces the stereotype we already have to fight as it is.

Like this:
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Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; May 16, 2009 at 11:40 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old May 17, 2009, 12:23 AM   #13
mrp0sitive
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"No that's saying show me where any tyrannical act by government since our formation was turned back by armed citizens. Mayor of New Orleans Ray Nagin illegally confiscated firearms from law adibing citizens after Katrina. What stopped him? Armed citizens or a legal injunction filed by the NRA? We do not own firearms privately to "prevent tyranny" but to use for sport, hunting and self defense."


I repeat: Americans are in the process of waking up. What Nagin did has been well noted and won't be repeated again on the scale it was reported by msm. Some cowards turned in their protection but I seriously doubt every gun owner succumbed.

If I understand you correctly, you are implying that the 2nd Amendment's intent is to keep target practice, hunting, and self-defense legal. If so you are wrong. And have you noticed the chipping away of our gun rights? Why would that be?


"Didn't 3/4s of our states have to ratify that 13th Amendment? I think you might need a civics lesson."


If you want you can google the history of income taxes or go to originalintent.org or davechampion.com or actually read and post the actual law that states we are required to pay income tax. Ratified or not, it is still illegal and a fraud.

"Didn't some hollywood actor go to jail for espousing that one? C'mon you can do better than that."

Google and educate yourself.

"Yeah, they live in secret hidden bunkers in Montana right? Sheesh, these threads really draw out the fringe element and I was wondering how long it would take. This is just crazy talk that reinforces the stereotype we already have to fight as it is."

Like many sheeple, you have been conditioned by msm to believe in the stereotype instead of doing your own research and thinking for yourself. BTW, you have a lovely family.
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Old May 17, 2009, 12:51 AM   #14
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Like many sheeple,
I hereby invoke WAs law.

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Old May 17, 2009, 01:47 AM   #15
raimius
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The stereotype that Americans are fat?

That is good propoganda, I admit. Two smiling parents and a kid. Yet, the t-shirt and presence of OC firearms is likely to scare the living daylights out of the general public.
Odd how being friendly and doing nothing threatening can scare so many people these days.
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Old May 17, 2009, 06:31 AM   #16
alloy
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Quote:
reinforces the stereotype we already have to fight as it is. Like this:
So actually...middle aged, patriotic, ex-marines, 2a supporters, pro-life, heterosexuals are the stereotypical enemy to be ashamed of? No thanks.
Corrosive attitude.

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Old May 17, 2009, 07:04 AM   #17
Al Norris
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How did we go from discussing a book to discussing the True(tm) meaning of the second amendment? Oh, I know! Only the OP was on topic!

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