The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 13, 2009, 10:07 AM   #1
McClintock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2008
Location: The Bald Prairie of Southern Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 305
How fast can you push 36 gr. Varmint Grenades in a 1-9 twist .223?

Hi, all.

I know that there are a number of threads discussing Varmint Grenades, and I've read them, but I still have a question for anyone with any experience with the lighter Varmint Grenades.

I've got a couple hundred 36 gr. Varmint Grenades that I'd like to load for a .223 Remington with a 1-9 twist (Savage 11FCSS with a 22" barrel), and I'm wondering how fast can you push these little pills through a 1-9 twist barrel before bad stuff like keyholing and fragmentation from spinning it too fast starts to happen? Should I maybe have gone with a heavier bullet?

I'm using load data from Lyman's #49, I've loaded 3 test lots of 10 rounds each with 25.0 gr., 25.5 gr., and 26.0 gr. of Varget.

I guess the proof will be in the testing this weekend. I'll post chrono and group size results if anyone's interested.

Cheers!
McClintock
McClintock is offline  
Old May 13, 2009, 03:21 PM   #2
SKULLANDCROSSBONES65
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 19, 2008
Location: Far Nth Wst QLD Australia
Posts: 972
G'day. It will never work in your gun. You had better send those little pills to me.

Actually this is beyond my level of knowledge. If they don't do well just get another rifle to use them in.
__________________
If you're not confused, you're not trying hard enough!
When you're confused, I'll try to use smaller words!!!
SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 is offline  
Old May 13, 2009, 03:42 PM   #3
Shoney
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2002
Location: Transplanted from Montana
Posts: 2,311
As I have commented in other threads, the 9 twist is probably too fast, and if they do not come apart, they will probably be inaccurate.

You should e-mail Barns and ask them what the max velocity is for that bullet is in the 1/9 twist. Include all the particulars on the load and weapon.
__________________
I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111
Shoney is offline  
Old May 13, 2009, 03:42 PM   #4
McClintock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2008
Location: The Bald Prairie of Southern Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 305
Shoney, thanks for the info. I will definitely e-mail Barnes and see what they have to say. I wasn't thinking about the twist rate of the barrel when I bought the darn things. Won't make that mistake again.

To SkullAndCrossBones...

Ha ha... good one.

I like the way you think, though... get another $700+ rifle to use my $30 box of bullets in. Now if I could only get that one past the wife...

I guess the only way to find out for sure is to test them. Unfortunately, the rifle I am going to test them in is a 3 hour drive away (thus, the 3 different test loads).

I'll try and post chrono and group results after the weekend, if you're interested.

Cheers!
McClintock
McClintock is offline  
Old May 13, 2009, 04:29 PM   #5
ForneyRider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2007
Location: Forney, TX
Posts: 725
Good question.

I just picked up some 36gr this weekend to try with .223 1:9 DPMS panther bull 20 and a .22-250.

Reloader's Journal has old article for this bullet and cartridges, but they used 1:8 Sisk rifle for the .223.

I plan on using AA 2230 for the .223 and R15 for the .22-250.

Article used 39gr of R15 for the .22-250 and got something like 4400fps.

I think the .223 in the article was 3650fps+. I plan on starting well below max for AA 2230 powder loads which max out over 3800fps in Accurate's load data.

These bullets are quite a bit longer than 40gr Sierra HP. They are also quite hollow.
__________________
When all is said and done, there is a lot more said than done.
ForneyRider is offline  
Old May 13, 2009, 05:39 PM   #6
Kendo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2009
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 103
McClintock, I would be very interested to hear the results. I am loading the 50gr grenade in .223 for my 1 in 9 twist. Thanks Kendo.
Kendo is offline  
Old May 13, 2009, 06:13 PM   #7
Kendo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2009
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 103
I've been thinkin about this McClintock. Ol Shoney has given me good advice on several occasions. Just for fun I'm gonna go against him on this deal. Shoney what do ya say,I believe those are gonna be tack drivers between 2900fps and 3300 fps.I have yet to shoot them but I have done quite a bit of research on them. I may be gettin sucked in by barnes website and sales pitch, cause I am a known sucker but I dont think so. This is not meant to be mean in anyway. Sometimes a new guy has to test his ideas,If I was yall I wouldn't bet against Shoney
Kendo is offline  
Old May 13, 2009, 09:32 PM   #8
jfd4444
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2009
Posts: 1
Link to Varmint Grenade article

Hope this helps.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazin...49partial1.pdf
jfd4444 is offline  
Old May 13, 2009, 10:44 PM   #9
jdscholer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2008
Location: Jefferson State
Posts: 895
I've gotta say that I didn't have very good luck with these bullets in my slow twist (1 in 14) rifles. They just didn't group that well.

I first tried them in my Rem 700 .222, which shoots almost everything sub MOA, and wound up with 2-3 inch groups.

So I says, "What the heck. I'll just try them in my 218 Bee." This rifle isn't exactly a one holer; usually groups around 1 1/2 inches. But with the Varmint Grenades we shot a solid six inches at 100 yards.

Now I didn't try a bunch of different powders, just the two that usually work well with these guns. (four different charge weights for each rifle) Also these rifles aren't real barn burners compared to 223's, 22-250's, etc.. Maybe they need high velocity and slow twist.?? Idunno.

Anyone had any better luck than me? jd
__________________
"We're all dummies, just in different ways." Old Okie Philosopher
jdscholer is offline  
Old May 14, 2009, 09:35 AM   #10
McClintock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2008
Location: The Bald Prairie of Southern Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 305
Thanks, everyone!

Thanks for all the information, everyone. Lots to think about for my next batch of .223 loads.

I'll post the Varmint Grenade results as soon as I have them. The plan is to go to my parent's farm (where the rifle currently resides) and test them this weekend.

Thanks for the magazine article, jfd4444, much appreciated. You folks at TFL always provide answers to any question I've ever asked!

Cheers!
McClintock
McClintock is offline  
Old May 15, 2009, 10:07 PM   #11
McClintock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2008
Location: The Bald Prairie of Southern Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 305
The official word from Barnes is...

Just as an update, the official word from Barnes regarding the 36 gr. Varmint Grenades is:

"You will be fine to shoot the 36 grain Varmint Grenades out of your 223 Rem with a 1:9 twist barrel. We have done some testing and found that the 36 grain Varmint Grenades, when shot at extreme velocities can come apart when shot out of 1:7 and possibly 1:8 twist barrels. We have a lot of people shoot them out of 1:9 barrels at the higher velocities and they are still extremely accurate. The Varmint Grenades seem to shoot the most accurate when they are seated around .020" off the lands/riflings."

Cheers!
McClintock
McClintock is offline  
Old May 16, 2009, 12:01 PM   #12
SKULLANDCROSSBONES65
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 19, 2008
Location: Far Nth Wst QLD Australia
Posts: 972
G'day. It is interesting that they did not specify a limit, just "higher velocities" or "extreme velocities".
__________________
If you're not confused, you're not trying hard enough!
When you're confused, I'll try to use smaller words!!!
SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 is offline  
Old May 19, 2009, 12:02 PM   #13
McClintock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2008
Location: The Bald Prairie of Southern Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 305
Range Results!

Well, I was able to do a little evaluation on the 36 gr. Barnes Varmint Grenades over the weekend, as promised. I apologize for the crappy quality of the target pictures, my cell phone camera is not a high-quality camera at all.

Unfortunately, due to bad weather, I was unable to do as extensive a test as I was planning, but something is better than nothing. I had wanted to get 5 shot groups, thus giving a little better sample of data, but I ran out of weather.

Stats:
Rifle: Savage 16FCSS .223, 22" barrel, 1-in-9 twist, Harris bipod, 3x-9x Bushnell Legend scope

Weather:
Temperature: 5 degrees Celsius (41 degrees F)
Wind: From the East at 35 km/h (22 m.p.h)
(*The "Range" on my parent's farm faces straight East, so I was shooting straight into the wind, maybe just the slightest of diagonal cross-wind)

Loads:
Bullet: 36 gr. Barnes Varmint Grenade
COAL: 2.240 (Lyman Reloading Manual #49)
Primer: Winchester Small Rifle

Load 1: 25.0 gr. Varget
Load 2: 25.5 gr. Varget
Load 3: 26.0 gr. Varget

Standard Disclaimer: This load data is what works for me, in my rifle. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Velocity (Measured in fps using a Shooting Chrony Alpha Model):
Load 1:
Group Size: 1.500" (*Groups were measured center-to-center)
Round 1: 3063
Round 2: 3025
Round 3: 3004
Average: 3031 fps

Load 2:
Group Size: 1.250"
Round 1: 3119
Round 2: 3059
Round 3: 3088
Average: 3092 fps

Load 3:
Group Size: 1.063"
Round 1: 3280
Round 2: 3308
Round 3: 3194 (Not sure why this one was so low...??)
Average: 3261 fps

The suprising result (to me, anyway) was that the Varmint Grenades printed between 4 and 5 inches high. We had originally zeroed the Savage using 50 gr. American Eagle hollowpoints, so I had expected the Varmint Grenades to print high, just not quite that high. DISCLAIMER: I will also be the first person to tell you that I am not what I would call a marksman/sharpshooter by any stretch of the imagination. I may have flinched on a shot or two, and I'm sure with a skilled operator at the controls, the groups would get smaller.

What I am going to do next trip out to the farm is adjust the AccuTrigger and lighten the trigger pull a little, to try and reduce the chance of any flinching causing the groups to be bigger than they should be.

So, what does this tell me? Well, it tells me that you can indeed use 36 gr. Varmint Grenades in a .223 with a 1-in-9 twist barrel. Had I been a little smarter, I would have made some 26.5 and 27.0 gr loads as well, just to see the results. However, I'm pretty happy with the 26.0 gr. load, so chances are I will be sticking with that one, at least for the time being (until all the varmint grenades are gone... )

Just thought I'd share my information with the rest of the TFL'ers. Hopefully other curious loaders find it useful.

Cheers!
McClintock
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Load_1.jpg (141.7 KB, 147 views)
File Type: jpg Load_2.jpg (137.2 KB, 104 views)
File Type: jpg Load_3.jpg (159.8 KB, 132 views)
McClintock is offline  
Old May 19, 2009, 07:55 PM   #14
Ozzieman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Northern Indiana
Posts: 4,967
You should have no problem pushing them to max 223 velocity, they are a solid bullet and are made for ultra high velocities and work well in 1 in 10 or faster twists.
A friend has loaded some in a 223 Win super short magnum and has pushed them over 4400 FPS and turned a ground hog inside out at over 250 yards and that was in a 1 in 8 barrel.
This bullet is made for high speed. The only thing is at his velocity he is getting some copper fowling, but it’s not been that hard to clean.
I have some on order for my 700 rem in 223 also.
I would also suggest your have your barrel measured, you don’t want these jumping very far before they hit the lands other wise you might be able to spit straighter.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/product...rmint-grenade/
Ozzieman is offline  
Old May 19, 2009, 08:30 PM   #15
Kendo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2009
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 103
McClintock thanks for the report. I thought these would do pretty good, just from what I've read. If my dang primers will ever get here I have some 50 gr to tryout. Thanks again for the report.
Kendo is offline  
Old May 20, 2009, 03:58 PM   #16
SKULLANDCROSSBONES65
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 19, 2008
Location: Far Nth Wst QLD Australia
Posts: 972
G'day. You should not accept this poor result from these projectiles. you had better get rid of those under-performing projectiles. Just send them to me and I will destroy them for you.



Enjoy.
__________________
If you're not confused, you're not trying hard enough!
When you're confused, I'll try to use smaller words!!!
SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 is offline  
Old May 20, 2009, 05:04 PM   #17
McClintock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2008
Location: The Bald Prairie of Southern Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 305
SkullandCrossbones...

Well, like I said, if there was a skilled operator at the controls, the groups would probably be better...

Ha ha... Yup, I'll get 'em in the mail for you right away!
McClintock is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 03:13 PM   #18
ForneyRider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2007
Location: Forney, TX
Posts: 725
Lyman 49th has lots of load data for 36gr Varmint Grenade for .223 and .22-250.

The .223 loads are pretty much under 3750fps.

They have AA2230 load data which I will use. I was hoping to use 10x, but Lyman only used 10x for 17 caliber stuff, and the Alliant data is very limited to Speer bullets.
__________________
When all is said and done, there is a lot more said than done.
ForneyRider is offline  
Old May 25, 2009, 04:54 PM   #19
McClintock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2008
Location: The Bald Prairie of Southern Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 305
Can you post your results?

Forney,

Good ol' Lyman #49 is where I got my load data from, too. Can you post range/chrono results once you get them? I'd be interested in seeing how your loads work out for you.

I think I'm going to stick with the 26.0 gr. Varget load, as the case looks pretty full at that point, and I don't really want to run a compressed load. 3300 fps is quick enough for me at this point.

I plan on trying some of these out on prairie poodles in the next week or two, so be able to I'll verify the "red mist" claims.

Cheers!
McClintock
McClintock is offline  
Old June 10, 2009, 05:00 PM   #20
Kendo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2009
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 103
McClintock, just curious If you got to shoot any more of these and how they did. I'm still waitin on primers so I still havent had a chance to shoot any. Thanks
Kendo is offline  
Old June 10, 2009, 05:42 PM   #21
Sam06
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2008
Location: Fayettenam
Posts: 1,086
4600fps

I got them up to 4600fps with a 220 Swift. They held together and accuracy was "OK". I like the 40gr V-Max much better. I used IMR 4064 for the load and started at 37gr and went up. I was getting signs of pressure at almost 4700fps. I would not want to shoot them in a rain storm. That is a 220 Swift AI by the way and it is on its 2nd chamber. When the throat goes I cut a few Inches off and re chamber it. It started life a 28.5" Barrel and is 25.5 now. The twist is 1-14.
__________________
The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
Sam06 is offline  
Old June 10, 2009, 06:28 PM   #22
McClintock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2008
Location: The Bald Prairie of Southern Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 305
Kendo

Haven't had a chance to shoot any more yet, should get a chance this coming weekend, heading out to the farm. I brewed up a batch of 50 to use to assassinate some high-ranking prairie dogs with.

I'll post a follow-up report.

Cheers!
McClintock
McClintock is offline  
Old June 11, 2009, 07:19 PM   #23
Kendo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2009
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 103
Thank you sir and good luck with the prarie dogs.
Kendo is offline  
Old June 15, 2009, 11:23 AM   #24
McClintock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2008
Location: The Bald Prairie of Southern Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 305
"Live" Results

Kendo,

Put a few of my .223 rounds through the Savage this past weekend, using ground squirrels as targets... the "Live" part of the title is a misnomer, none of them lived to tell the tale. Once the scope was adjusted (16 clicks down from the American Eagles I was using before, as the Varmint Grenades were shooting 4" high), the prairie poodles virtually exploded when hit. Maximum range was around 100-120 yards, and out of the dozen or so rounds that we (brothers and myself) put through it, more often that not all we found for remains were either the top half of the bottom half of the ground squirrel, depending on where you hit them (high or low... we experimented a bit), or merely a few bite-sized chunks in the general vicinity of the "target" (center mass hit). These Varmint Grenades are awesome!

Have another 120 of the Varmint Grenades left, gonna load them up as soon as I can and get back to the farm soonest.

Hope that helps.

Cheers!
McClintock
McClintock is offline  
Old June 15, 2009, 10:40 PM   #25
Kendo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2009
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 103
McClintock, Man thats awsome and exactly what I was wanting to hear. I do alot of coyote hunting and thats what I was wanting to use mine for. Did you have any copper fouling . I've read a few complaints about that here and there. I've also read they shoot very clean. Who knows? If you're ever in OK in the fall or winter, give me a holler we'll go kill something. Thanks Kendo
Kendo is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14675 seconds with 8 queries