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Old May 13, 2009, 05:23 AM   #1
CaptainCrossman
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laws concerning sale/shipping of bp c/b pistols ?

what are the laws concerning blackpowder cap/ball pistols/replicas, in reference to sale/transport/shipping them out of state ?

Last edited by CaptainCrossman; May 13, 2009 at 10:11 AM.
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Old May 13, 2009, 06:04 AM   #2
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According to BATF they're NOT firearms and not restricted.
Some localcalities have restrictions though.

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Old May 13, 2009, 06:05 AM   #3
CaptainCrossman
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what about shipping bp/c/b pistols to California ?
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Old May 13, 2009, 07:23 AM   #4
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Apparently CA has some additional laws the restrict muzzle loaders. Most sellers on Gunbroker well not ship to CA with C&R. SG well be along, he knows the CA law on this and well have the correct answer for you.
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Old May 13, 2009, 07:44 AM   #5
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madcrate, what is "C&R" and who is "SG" ??

the net abbreviations kill me
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Old May 13, 2009, 08:07 AM   #6
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I think SG is Smokin Gun, a member here...
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Old May 13, 2009, 08:14 AM   #7
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thanks, I emailed/PM'd him

I seeing an ever-growing list of states on the retailers and gunbroker sellers lists, that they won't ship bp c/b pistols to- and it's pret-ty damned depressing that these states/areas are doing this now. Holy crap soon we won't be able to ship a cap gun legally.
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Old May 13, 2009, 08:20 AM   #8
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SG is smokin gun, the mad man of the Mohave.

C&R is a curio and relic license. It is a class 03 FFL. It allows you the ship C&R eligible guns directly between the buyer/seller.

Generally anything more than 50 years old is a C&R. BATF has a list of C&R guns, you can find it at their web site I believe.

I just ran across this on auction arms.

"California law will NOT allow shipment of C&R handguns direct to a C&R holder in the State of California, a 01 dealer must be used"

This may include cap and ball revolvers, I don't know.
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Old May 13, 2009, 08:27 AM   #9
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C&R means any "firearm" that is 50 years+ old- including centerfire.

the issue with BP/CB replicas is, federal law doesn't consider an unloaded one a firearm at all. Most states you can ship a bp/cb to/from with no legal issues.

some states like Illinois and Michigan, consider a BP/CB a firearm, period- and it must go to an FFL for transfer.

I'm starting to see guys not ship to California now, so I'm wondering what's up with that.
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Old May 13, 2009, 08:59 AM   #10
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What if you ship it in parts? Say one box with barrel and cylinder and another with the frame? A barrel and cylinder isn't a firearm and either is a frame. It would increase shipping cost but at least you could ship it.
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Old May 13, 2009, 09:08 AM   #11
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Quote:
C&R means any "firearm" that is 50 years+ old- including centerfire.
Pretty much. It is mostly for old military surplus rifles and pistols. There are some rules. The gun must be unmodified. For example, a Lee Enfield in original condition can be shipped direct to me because I have a C&R. If this same rifle is 'sporterized' it is no longer C&R eligible and I would have to use a class 01 FFL to complete the transfer.

There is a C&R section here, lot of info on what you need to do to get a C&R. Just about anyone can, non felon and $20 or $30 for two years lic. You have to keep a "bound book" a written record of all the C&R guns you buy and sell. The BATF has the right to come inspect your C&R address at any time. They do check on us small time C&R folks. They check to see if the paper work is correct and up to date and as long as you do it right it's not a problem.
If your into mil-surp stuff a C&R saves you a ton of money on transfer fees. A BIG plus is most places like Numrich, Brownells or Midway well give you a wholesale account if you send them a copy of your C&R. That's a 20-25% saving on almost all items. I bet I saved over a grand the first year I had my C&R. Get one.
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Old May 13, 2009, 09:15 AM   #12
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Quote:
what about shipping bp/c/b pistols to California ?
I've received two from Cabela's. No issues.
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Old May 13, 2009, 09:15 AM   #13
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Quote:
What if you ship it in parts? Say one box with barrel and cylinder and another with the frame? A barrel and cylinder isn't a firearm and either is a frame. It would increase shipping cost but at least you could ship it.
Normally the serial numbered frame or receiver is considered a firearm, with or with out any of the other parts. You are OK with the other parts, they are not considered a firearm.

Quote:
I'm starting to see guys not ship to California now, so I'm wondering what's up with that.
Something about CA law and lawyers suing the crap out of people that "legally" sold a firearm that ended up in a crime somewhere down the line. It's a gray area and most don't want to deal with it.
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Old May 13, 2009, 10:00 AM   #14
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the area I need to know about, is specifically cap and ball percussion pistols/revolvers

so far I've called the NRA, they said under federal law c/b bp pistols are not considered firearms, but California has instituted a few new regulations that may affect these replicas

there are states that do require an FFL for bp/c/b pistols, Illinois and Michigan

Last edited by CaptainCrossman; May 13, 2009 at 10:17 AM.
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Old May 13, 2009, 10:36 AM   #15
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Quote:
what about shipping bp/c/b pistols to California ?
There are NO restrictions shipping BP or C&B Guns to California None at all.
There is additional paperwork to ship cartridge guns ... and Curios from an FFL dealer to a C&R dealer in CA.
But none for a Private party transaction with a BP, C&B, or Curio/relic.
The FFL dealers are the ones that have a problem with additional paperwork recently added(boycott)...that's why you see the WILL NOT SHIP TO CA in the auctions...I have talk to Auctioneers and they have admitadly stated that the NO ship was a blanket statement meant for cartridge guns. And BP C&B guns were shipped to me no problem.
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Old May 13, 2009, 10:48 AM   #16
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Quote:
Something about CA law and lawyers suing the crap out of people that "legally" sold a firearm that ended up in a crime somewhere down the line. It's a gray area and most don't want to deal with it.
I talked to the two attorneys that were sewed badly...I had won a bid from them he explained the SITREP to me on what happened in CA when someone was killed with a gun purchased from them. They will not ship to CA, but will drop ship to elsewhere if you can arrange it. I feel for them and what happened to them...they own a Gunshop as a side business. They were very nice and helpful, but iI am sure their word has gotten around.

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Old May 13, 2009, 12:32 PM   #17
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thanks Smokin' Gun
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Old May 13, 2009, 12:36 PM   #18
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Don't ship them loaded, that would be bad.............
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Old May 13, 2009, 12:59 PM   #19
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you got that right....
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Old May 14, 2009, 05:41 AM   #20
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you're not gonna believe this, but 2 experienced attorneys who handle a lot of cases for the NRA, both said not to ship a CB BP gun to California. I think they are both wrong- perhaps they just don't have a lot of blackpowder gun law experience. The 2nd one is definitely wrong, because a blackpowder c/b revolver is exempt from being considered an "unsafe handgun"- due to its length, shot capacity (minimum 5 shot), and single action. The unsafe handgun CA laws seem to be made specifically to outlaw derringer type guns, or Saturday Night Specials, smaller than 7.5" total length, with less than 5 shot capacity. For some reason they are considering the BP CB gun a "firearm", like a modern centerfire gun- even though I quite specifically outlined cap/ball ignition/loose ball/powder/muzzleloader.



lawyer #1 said:

You can ship it to them if both of you have a C&R license, otherwise you need to use a dealer




lawyer #2 said:

To answer your question, No.

You cannot ship a firearm to a non-licensee in another state. You can ship the firearm via common or contract carrier to a FFL in another state. Federal law prohibits the transfer of a firearm between two non-licensees who reside in different states. A purchaser may obtain a firearm from an out of state source if an arrangement is made with an FFL in the purchaser’s state of residence and for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. I would suggest against shipping this firearm into California.

California law prohibits the importation into the state for sale of an “unsafe handgun.” This firearm appears to fall into the classification, as it does not meet the curio/relic exception of the “unsafe handgun” law.





now the kicker- lawyer #2 needs to read the laws a bit more- blackpowder pistols are exempt due to the following disclaimer on the "unsafe handgun" law-scroll to bottom of this link, single action- minimum 5 shots- longer than 7.5" overall, is exempt from "unsafe handgun" category


http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12125.htm

12133. (a) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-action revolver that has at least a 5-cartridge capacity with a barrel length of not less than three inches, and meets any of the following specifications: (1) Was originally manufactured prior to 1900 and is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations. (2) Has an overall length measured parallel to the barrel of at least 7 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled. (3) Has an overall length measured parallel to the barrel of at least 7 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled and that is currently approved for importation into the United States pursuant to the provisions of paragraph (3) of subsection (d) of Section 925 of Title 18 of the United States Code. (b) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 10 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.


I'm not a lawyer, but I did have one year of business law back in college. I can read most laws and interpret/decipher them. Why is it so hard to get a definite answer from someone in the legal profession on this issue ? They seem to know less about it, than gun shops and shooters do. Heck, I can look it up and get more accurate information in a few hours. Something just ain't right here.

Why are they considering a CB BP pistol, a "firearm" in the first place ? Federal law doesn't consider it a firearm, neither does CA law, unless it is modified for modern ammunition, or loaded when sold. Unless a "replica" of modern manufacture, is now considered a firearm in CA.

Now I know why some places are just saying "no sales to California"- it's too much of a hassle, and tied up in legal-ese.
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Old May 14, 2009, 06:23 AM   #21
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CA shipping

I am an FFL dealer/holder and I send black powder firearms to California when one is purchased from me and do not have any trouble shipping right to the buyer as long as they furnish to me a copy of their drivers lic. to show that they are 18 years of age. Black powder firearms are exempt from federal law. The only problem you will have is if you go the UPS as they do not know the laws. Use USPS and you will be able to ship. I got into an argument once with shipping a muzzle loader to Canada. I had to produce the the USPS's own written rule to do so. Hope this helps.
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Old May 14, 2009, 08:16 AM   #22
CaptainCrossman
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now that's the answer I needed, direct from an FFL- thanks

I've had problems with both USPS and UPS clerks. One said "is that a gun ?" because she would not ship guns- even though UPS does ship guns. A USPS clerk would not ship someone else's rifle in a locked case, just because the person sending it, a woman, told them what it was ahead of time. In reality USPS can ship guns. This person was sending it ahead on a hunting trip, and didn't want to take it on a plane.

that's the problem, the clerks are not educated at UPS and USPS, as to the exact laws- and most of them are not the sharpest knives in the drawer, if you know what I mean
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Old May 14, 2009, 08:30 AM   #23
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Here's what took me 2 days to eventually find out, sale/shipment of a replica CB/BP is legal. Check paragraph "C"- it's a bit vague. Perhaps that's what the attorneys were thinking of- and erring on the safe side.



http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#9

I want to sell a gun to another person, i.e., a private party transfer. Am I required to conduct the transaction through a licensed California firearms dealer?

Yes. Firearm sales must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The buyer (and seller, in the event that the; buyer is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements. "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement.


http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/1...1----000-.html

(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

Last edited by CaptainCrossman; May 14, 2009 at 09:02 AM.
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Old May 14, 2009, 10:19 AM   #24
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There are no restrictions on shipping blackpowder firearms to California residents directly. Cabela's has shipped me a few blackpowder guns DIRECTLY TO MY DOOR. If it was illegal or questionable, they sure as hell wouldn't do that. I believe CT and NY have restrictions on blackpowder guns.
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Old May 14, 2009, 11:03 AM   #25
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check this out, just got a reply from lawyer #1, the lawyers had C&R confused with antique, they are 2 distinct categories, here's his reply, I respect this attorney for taking the question, then admitting his initial mistake, quote:

I was confused and thinking it was a C&R item, but as you pointed out it is not and as an antique there is no restriction unless CA does have one on out of state shipments
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