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Old May 14, 2009, 11:02 AM   #26
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"The Smokin' Gun Shop" (my personal favorite)
Mykeal that's a good un. I'll place that as a persoal favorite also...
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Old May 14, 2009, 06:19 PM   #27
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I'm still thinking about a name but it hurts to think. Hey, what do you think about 2 and 3rd generation colts. I know uberti was very involved. Do YOU think these unfired colts are valuable or would or do you shoot them? The one's we have supposedly have never been fired. I do have a 3'rd generation signiture series navy (1851) w/ accessories box. It's pretty but the loading leaver wobbles a little. Can't tighten it anymore. I thought about just taking it home and shoot it but since I'm a shop keeper my mind says no. I don't do competion shooting or reanactments --------I have a small farm and me and my partner shoot our 36 Navys out in my field at little blocks of wood at about 35 feet away. The 1860 uberti navy wins every time over the 1851 uberti navy. I love these guns. I had an" original" Gunnison confederate model in the 70's and sold it in Georgia back then for $100. It had the Augusta stamp and all. I wish like hell I still had it because it was firable/no pits/etc---but back then a $100 was a lot of money for me. Then I started buying kits from Navy Arms. I don't like the Navy arms pistols. I have some in the shop and you can buy them for next to nothing. I just re-newed my interest a short while ago in this thing ---so even though I'm selling this--I don't know all I should. i've learned a lot from you guys and appreciate it greatly. I expect to learn more.
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Old May 14, 2009, 06:44 PM   #28
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Smokin' Gun (soon to be someone else)

2nd Gens & Sig Series Colts are collectable as long as they are NIB. 2nd Gens more so IMHO. They are also very shootable. I've got a pair of C series 1851 Navies and F series 1861 Navies that are accurate & fun to shoot. I buy NIB models for my collection, and those that someone played with or shot for my shooters. Let someone else take the hit for them not being NIB.

By 1860 Uberti Navy, do you mean 1861 Navy?? 1860s are Armies, not Navies.

Was the Augusta you had a "Gunnison' or was it an Ansley & Rigdon?? Ansley & Rigdon made Augusta models in 1864. I wasnt aware that Gunnison did.
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Old May 14, 2009, 06:58 PM   #29
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I " soon to be someone else" thanks for the post. Stupid me- it is an 1861! And I also posted earlier about a Robert E. Lee---it's a 1971. I have ADD or CRS -- You guys keep me straight;okay? ! But, that 1861 NAVY has only 2 screws above the trigger. You remove the left one and the bottom of your hammer hand is exposed. I can't see it supporting anything but I'm ready to learn something again. I pack it with grease.

I don't like smoke pole as a name. It makes me sound way too old!!!LOL or something else:}
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Old May 14, 2009, 07:33 PM   #30
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It was a Gunnison and Rigdon (I presume). It looked just like the old navy arms replicas. Now, I'm going back over 35 years, so I can't remember all the details. I do remember it had few markings. The barrel was not blued but not rusted or pitted. I was given some balls, a small can of pwder and caps. I bought it fo$80.00 since it looked like one of Clint Eastwood's. I bought it from a road side antique shop near Augusta.I shot it. and I was lucky because I had a hunter friend in my dorm that said: put vaseline on the chamber holes. But I did that after I loaded it and the chambers went off at the same time. "Now that scared me!" I think there was an X marked on the right side of the hammer. Gunnison was marked somewhere either on the top of the barrel or side of frame. I just don't remember.. I knew nothing about these guns but I remember the man that sold it to me said" It was made in Augusta,GA by the Gunnison Factory" during the Civil War. I put an add in the paper and a gun collector bought it after looking at it for no more than 20 seconds. I told him to put vaseline on the chamber openings before shooting it. He looked at me, cocked his head, rolled his eyes to his brow and said--this is going in my display case. And then he left with me standing with a c note in my hand. But, It was a brass frame gun w brass trigger guard ans strap with wood grips in great shape. and it shot! I think that that is why I originally posted because everyone was in an uproar over the weakness of brass frames. I shot a gun 20 or 30 or more times that was over a 100 yrs old w/ brass frame. I'm lucky I wasn't laying on my back with smokin' gun parts laying all over my chest. By the way, sometimes I get long winded--- Don't mean to--just runs in our family.
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Old May 15, 2009, 12:16 AM   #31
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If it was an original Augusta Ansley & Rigdon, even 35 years ago, it was worth quite a bit. There were very few of them made. I'd have to pull out my ref book; but IIRC the quantity was less than 200. That's why it was going in his display case.

If you suffer from AAADD (age activated attention deficit disorder) or CRS, you're in good company. Most of us around here do too, to some degree.

The extra screw heads on the '60 Armies and '61 Navies are aligning/pivot posts for the shoulder stock. I'd never thought about using them to grease the hammer/hand; but then I only use Balistol to lub my C&B innards.
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Old May 15, 2009, 06:07 PM   #32
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I remember Gunnison barely visible/ and the man that sold it to me said it was Gunnison. I wouldn't have remembered unless we bought a pietta Reb Confederate that said it was Gunnison and Rigby replica.. But I'm sure you are right because over 100 years maybe (who owned the gun" interchanged parts. Also, I'm going to change my name---when I get over my ADD and CRS. I pack Thompsons breach plug grease in that hole on the 1861 navy. Remember, these guns don't have bushings or bearings so grease is the only thing I can think of to protect these little springs or just think of them as bearings and have a box full of them. A spring rubbing up and down through that channel is going to break. And how do you heat treat a hammer hand spring since it's stamped into an already hardened part. I also don't think that the parts back in the day were as good as they are now. That is probably why there were so many gunsmiths in that era. And I did not get a grip on "2&3 generation colts discussion. If they have not been fired they still have the factory grease. So--you're saying that you can shoot um clean and sell them for the same price. ? I didn't quite understand that response--

Billy Hardy/ The Smokin' Gun ,Spartanburg SC
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Old May 15, 2009, 07:00 PM   #33
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Billy, I stand corrected on the Ansley & Rigdon Augusta revolvers - there were around 800 of them made, not the 200 I stated earlier (I got the book out). The Griswold & Gunnisons were made in Griswoldville, GA - just east of Macon. The Ansley & Rigdons were made in Augusta GA. The most unique feature of the Ansley & Rigdons were the 12 bolt notches in the cylinders that made carrying one of them safer than any other Colt or Colt clones that had safety pins on the backs of the cylinders and notches in the hammer face.

You're right, these springs do break. I broke about 4 of them in a pair of Navy Arms Frontiersman '51 Navies before I figured out why. The channel that the spring rides over in each of the pistols was rough as a cobb. About 30 minutes with a round file, emery paper, and a stone, with copios amounts of oil turned those wear points into a smooth polished surface. When the bearing surface in the frame that the hand spring rides over is polished, most lubricants, short of grease, are sufficient. I smoothed the frames on all of my '51s & '61s and havent broken a hand spring since. I've got about 800 rounds on each of my 2nd Gen '61 Navies and they just keep on firing.

I guess I wasn't clear enough about the 2nd Gens. I collect NIB examples of the different models that were made in the 70s and 80s. I do not shoot the NIB ones in my collection. I do, however, shoot a pair of 2nd Gen '51 Navies and '61 Navies. These I purchased at less than NIB prices cause they had been shot or turned.
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Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce
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Old May 15, 2009, 07:16 PM   #34
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Thanks Fingers. I still want to shoot that 1851 3rd signiture but it sure looks good in the display. Please tell me to leave it alone. Also, I'll check that channel on the one I do shoot when I break it down. I usually just break it down to the frame and don't remove the trigger or flat spring. I clean it and use a hair dryer on it. Never thought of burrs before. Thanks. I guess that gun was a Griswold. Let's go find it :}
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Old May 15, 2009, 07:48 PM   #35
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Hey, where's the real Smokin Gun? He must be mad at me for not changin' my name. I will. It's really weird how I decided to open my shop since ya'll know much more than me It was "hap" If you want to know, ask. I don't think any of us like long winded posting so I'll not. It was just something that came about. 6 mo's ago I hadn't fired a cap and ball revolver or thought much about them in 25 years. So--I guess I'm goin to have to rely on you on things---I might raffle off one in the store who picks out me a new name or offends me the best !

Wild Billy Hickup Hardy
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Old May 15, 2009, 10:17 PM   #36
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My gun won't take the first cock that let's you rotate your cylinder anymore. Any advise on that one.
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Old May 15, 2009, 10:29 PM   #37
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My gun won't take the first cock that let's you rotate your cylinder anymore. Any advise on that one.
????? not sure I understand what you're talking about. Are you saying it won't go into half cock? It might be the grease.
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Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce
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Old May 16, 2009, 06:41 PM   #38
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It goes into half cock and full c. But the first cock just lets you spin your cylinder. I thought it was the grease too! but I broke it down, wiped it clean and looked at the hammer. Sanded just a little under the top knotch but that didn't work. Then I assumed it's not that important as long it goes into half coc and pulls back perfectly in line.

We had some reanactment folks wanting pyrodex and sold out. They wanted the Hodgens ff fifle powder and I told them that wasn't a good idea and could order more pyrodex by Tues. Did I do the right thing? And is that 1st little cock that important on a gun that I just plink with?

Fingers---there's three cocks--the first don't catch.

Billy Hickup
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Old May 16, 2009, 07:27 PM   #39
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Ok, I'm confused.

On any Colt SAA design there are three hammer positions: full down, half cock and full cock; thus there are only two, not three 'cocks'. These positions are defined by the two sear notches and the lack of a third notch on the front face of the lower part of the hammer. There are, however, either 3 or 4 distinct 'clicks' heard between full down and full cock, depending on timing. The 'clicks' are associated with the motion of the bolt, trigger, trigger/bolt spring, hand and hand spring; other than being the device which causes the action parts to move the hammer has nothing to do with the 'clicks'.

In the half cock position the hammer is prevented from moving forward by any means - either trigger pressure or by pushing on the hammer. The cylinder can be rotated by hand in a clockwise manner when viewed from the back; it can only be moved counterclockwise a small amount before the hand engages a ratchet on the back of the cylinder. Is this the position you are referring to as 'the first cock', and if so does the cylinder move freely in both directions or just one direction (clockwise)? Or is there some other position before half cock that exhibits this behavior?

You should be able to observe the trigger/hammer relationship with the trigger guard removed. As the hammer moves back you should be able to observe the trigger sear engage the two notches. The first defines half cock; the 'first cock' and half cock are the same thing. Does the sear enter the notch and remain there until the hammer is pulled further back? With the sear engaged in this first notch the trigger should not be able to cause the sear to disengage the notch and the cylinder should be free to rotate in a clockwise direction only (with a small amount of counterclockwise motion as mentioned above). Does this occur as described?

Last edited by mykeal; May 16, 2009 at 07:35 PM.
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Old May 16, 2009, 07:40 PM   #40
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Ok. It is the first click that allows you to spin your cylinder to the right just as if you barely pulled on the hammer to release the cylinder stop so you can move it freely.Now all it does is goes into half(safety) where the cylinder moves half way between chambers and hammer position--- and then you can pull it back to full cock to its click. Just 2 clicks I got on this one. Uberti 1861 navy. Should I file that knotch a tad or not worry about it. ? Billy
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Old May 16, 2009, 08:07 PM   #41
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I don't fully understand your description.

Let's ignore 'clicks'; they have nothing to do with the half cock and full cock hammer positions. Those positions are defined by the sear engaging the notches on the hammer, not by the noises the action parts make.

The first hammer position is full down. The second one is half cock, and it's characterized by the trigger dropping into the first notch on the lower part of the hammer body. In terms of hammer movement it's between a third and two thirds of full hammer movement between hammer down and full back.

To me, this description:
Quote:
It is the first click that allows you to spin your cylinder to the right just as if you barely pulled on the hammer to release the cylinder stop so you can move it freely.
is not half cock, and it sounds to me like normal operation. The 'click' you're hearing is the trigger leg of the trigger/bolt spring dropping out of it's detent on the face of the trigger. If I understand the description.

I don't understand the next sentence:
Quote:
Now all it does is goes into half(safety) where the cylinder moves half way between chambers and hammer position
Does the hammer reach a position at some point approximately 1/3 to 2/3 of the distance between full down and full back in which it is not possible to move it forward either by pulling the trigger or pushing it forward?
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Old May 16, 2009, 10:28 PM   #42
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I tore it down and the spring did not seem to quite reach the top notch on the trigger. I replaced it with one longer but the gun started jamming. I figured it might be too long so I took it back out. It appears I need a new sear spring. Also,(a while back, when I replaced hammer hands, they were too long and would jam the cylinder but I filed them. Now I'm getting that jam again every 8 or 9 cocks. Hell, life's too short--if I get more parts they probably won't fit right. Man, this is a tough hobby but I guess I'm stubborn enough to eventually figure it out---with your help/thanks.
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Old May 17, 2009, 05:19 PM   #43
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I fixed it! Thanks !!! The screw on the left side that supposedly supports a shoulder stock that I said you can grease the hammer hand when it's opened. That screw only has 3 threads and goes in less than 1/20 inch to seat flush in the channel that hammer hand moves up in. Now I never had one of these with shoulder attachment and I guess it could only fit on top of the protruded screw head. Anyway after squirting just a little grease plug grease in that hole the action is like greased lighting. One more question. Is it normal to order parts that don't fit and you have to rework them. The 2 hammer hand assemblies we got were too long and I honed them so they could rotate the cylinders in 2 guns. If I hadn't shortened them the hammer wouldn't even budge! Is this typical (Or did I get parts by mistake for another type)--since I've got to learn as much as I can soon. And I have -thanks to you--I guess you really are picking out a good name for me now!!:} Or just wishing I'd fly away somewhere else. Like I said it has been 25 years or so (Up until several months ago) I fooled with these things. I 'm sorry I frustrated everyone. I still think I like that grease though?!
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Old May 17, 2009, 10:21 PM   #44
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Is it normal to order parts that don't fit and you have to rework them.
Yes. The original guns were all hand fitted the same way - filing and shaping each piece. The craftsmen who did the job had many years of experience as apprentices before being promoted to working the final assembly as journeymen. We get promoted much more quickly.
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Old May 19, 2009, 07:28 PM   #45
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I'll ask one more ? before I change my name. And I'm goin to. I certainly don't want to offend anyone of you. Since my wife entered me in here she'll have to show me. But she's always busy doin somethin else. We have a stainless steel 1858 (Palmetto) 44c 8". Pietta has gone 500+/- on these. Uberties are hard to find in this model now. Is that Palmetto worth at leat 400 retail or more--or less. It looks the same as the Piettas. I even think Pietta is stamped on it but it is a Palmetto. Tell me please
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Old May 20, 2009, 09:27 AM   #46
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The stock screws on the Armys are a real source of irritation for me. They fall just where the base of my fore finger rubs on the frame. Took them out, chucked the threads into a 3/8" drill and turned the edges down into a more rounded profile. Problem solved.
I am a fan of the Pettifogger conversion of the hands and springs.

RK65, Anyone that carries a Walker in a cross draw is a real man.
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Old May 20, 2009, 11:04 AM   #47
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I wouldn't have a Palmetto revolver at any price, so to me it's certainly not worth $400.

Ive researched blue books and found that they don't list any values for any Palmetto products, simply referring the reader to the factory for information. Since the factory apparently no longer exists, the link is useless.

I'm confused by your statement that the gun is marked Pietta but it's actually a Palmetto. That makes no sense. What do you base that on?
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Old May 20, 2009, 11:32 AM   #48
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We have a stainless steel 1858 (Palmetto) 44c 8". Pietta has gone 500+/- on these. Uberties are hard to find in this model now. Is that Palmetto worth at leat 400 retail or more--or less. It looks the same as the Piettas. I even think Pietta is stamped on it but it is a Palmetto. Tell me please
I don't know what it's worth.
One must check prices all around to see the relative value.

Here's Cabela's prices:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...entId=cat20712

Here are Uberti's at The Possible Shop:

http://www.possibleshop.com/uberti.htm

A Palmetto made by Pietta? That's an interesting possibility. I'd like to see two of those maker's marks on the same gun. It might even make the Palmetto desirable since most folks have warned against buying Palmetto revolvers, at least certain models. Not that they don't work, but the few reports about them were not flattering for the most part.
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Old May 20, 2009, 08:04 PM   #49
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I swear I saw Pietta stamped on the right side of the barrel or frame. But I will look at it tommorow and make sure. If it is, I'll give all info on it. Actually, the stainless steel has better action all around than the blued ones. I know what I paid for it-just wanted to know market value. I', goin to look real close at it tommorow and let you know. We can't find the Uberties in stock and the Piettas are anywhere from 499 t0 515 retail. So Here's a stainless steel in the display that wants to be sold (at a good price to the customer of course.
Billy
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Old May 21, 2009, 06:24 PM   #50
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I was wrong. It is a Palmetto but it's better than the blued ones. Trigger, hammer & cylinder action is good. Also has adjustable site. Since I'm too stubborn to wear glasses, the stamp looks like it says pietta. Here is why. There is a P then a small stamp and a M. the P is visible, the stamp could be misconstrued as an i.e and the M is worn where both sides of that letter stand out looking like 2 t's and a small stamp follows. With just a glance , it all looks like a PIETTA. but with closer examination it is not.

I dropped the price considerably- but still-it is pretty.

Anyone heard of Dam good Gun Oil. We got some in and I took a bottle home and it smells and feels 100% Olive oil. Ilike to have a few items that you can't get in Wall-Mart- etc. So we get small quantaties of different type stuff. What do you make of this oil. It's greasy as hell!
Billy
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