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Old May 11, 2009, 12:00 PM   #1
Old Iron and Wood
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C&R grey area

I' ran into an issue that stumped me regarding C&R qualification; I was interested in an Enfield that had a 'SPORTERIZED' stock and per the seller he could not list it as a C&R because of that modification. I emailed the ATF about this issue and I'm awaiting word from them on this issue but, I'll ask you guys your opinon; first, per C&R requirements as long as a military rifle is 50 years old or older and all parts are original it will qualify as a C&R; however new parts to replace old non working parts is acceptable and does not change the rifle's C&R classification; HOWEVER, if you change the original stock out for a synthetic stock that rifle looses it's C&R qualification. OK, I can agree with that however, my question to the ATF is 'why would modifying an original stock change the rifle C&R qualification? Techinquely your not replacing the original stock out, but simply modifying it, the stock is still the original.'
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Old May 11, 2009, 12:23 PM   #2
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Old May 11, 2009, 12:24 PM   #3
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You can replace old worn out parts with modern reproductions and still be C&R elidgeable but change the configuration such as sporterize it with synthetic stock, cut down the barrel , cut down the stock ,etc and it is not longer a C&R as it is no longer original configuration
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Old May 11, 2009, 02:40 PM   #4
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I asked this once before but got a non-answer (since it wasn't really important, I blew it off) - isn't a 50+ year-old rifle eligible for C&R regardless of its configuration?
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Old May 11, 2009, 02:47 PM   #5
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It must be 50 years old or older to be elidgeable and in original unaltered condition. Its all in the rule book you got with you license or on the ATF website
I suggest you review it, the answers are ther to most simple questions
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/2001index.htm

Just exactly what did he change on the stock? If its the original stock and he just reshaped it and nothing else is different on the rifle it "could" still be elidgeable. Bottom line is if he doesnt feel comfortable shipping it to a C&R he doest have to

Last edited by Orlando; May 11, 2009 at 02:53 PM.
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Old May 11, 2009, 04:29 PM   #6
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Here's how I understand the "original configuration" rule.

If the part is designed to be readily removable in the field, it's OK if it's incorrect or missing. Examples include rifle slings, pistol magazines, and cleaning rods.

Incorrect or clumsy repairs are OK to some degree, as is clearly unintentional damage. An example of an acceptable incorrect repair would be a replacement handguard that's the right shape but made from non-matching wood, or an armorer-replaced rifle magazine that has the wrong serial number but is correct for the type.

Modifications and/or missing parts do fall into a grey area, but most collectors- and the ATF- would probably agree that a hacked-up stock crosses the line, especially if the profile of the original has been obliterated.
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Old May 11, 2009, 05:32 PM   #7
Hkmp5sd
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This is my opinion and worth everything you paid for it.

To be C&R, a firearm must be 50 years of age OR for some reason be collectible and added to ATF's C&R list by name.

NOTE: For US made firearms, none of this matters. It can be C&R based on age alone. This applies only to imported military surplus firearms.

When we speak of the "original configuration" description, we are generally speaking of "military" firearms.

Remember that none of this existed prior to 1968. Before that date, guns could pretty much be imported, bought and sold at will. After that date, we were introduced to things such as 01-FFLs, C&R 03-FFLs and "sporting" firearms.

The 1968 GCA banned the importation of any former "military" firearm with the exception of those imported under the C&R clause.

Quote:
(d) The Attorney General shall authorize a firearm or ammunition to be imported or brought into the United States or any possession thereof if the firearm or ammunition—
<snip>
(3) is of a type that does not fall within the definition of a firearm as defined in section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954 and is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes, excluding surplus military firearms,except in any case where the Attorney General has not authorized the importation of the firearm pursuant to this paragraph, it shall be unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if assembled; or
<snip>
(e) Notwithstanding any other provision of this title, the Attorney General shall authorize the importation of any licensed importer, by the following: (1) All rifles and shotguns listed as curios or relics by the Attorney General pursuant to section 921(a)(13), and
This is were the "original configuration" comes into play. Any military firearm that was imported after 1968 had to be on the C&R list as a collectible firearm. It is only considered a C&R if it remains in its original configuration. (Remember, JFK was killed with a imported military rifle that was not in its military configuration.)

If you change the configuration, you remove it from the C&R list and it is no longer a legal import. A prime example is the current crop of Yugo SKS rifles. They are legal in their military configuration. If you slap a folding stock, pistol grip and 30-round magazine onto it, it becomes an illegal rifle for two reasons. First, it isn't a C&R any more and cannot be imported because it is "military surplus" and second because it violates 922(r) which prohibits the assembly from imported parts any firearm that it not legal for imporation in its assembled form.

If the Enfield was imported prior to 1968, it is a C&R based on age alone, regardless of configuration.
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Old May 12, 2009, 03:08 AM   #8
BobbyT
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Just to reiterate, since I see this misinformation so often:

50+ years old = C&R status.

Not eligible for C&R consideration by the ATF; when it turns 50 it's on the list. Other <50 year old guns are also added, but age alone automatically makes a gun C&R.
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Old May 12, 2009, 07:23 AM   #9
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Some of you say 50+ years and unaltered, some say 50+ years regardless of condition, some of you say 50+ years if domestic and 50+ years and unaltered if imported, as long as importation took place before 1968.

Since I don't care to alter my milsurps, I'll just leave this debate to you all...
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Old May 12, 2009, 08:06 AM   #10
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Period-alterations are fine.
Non-period alterations, as long as they're historical, are fine (Nazis taking over Russian arsenals and putting new scopes on old surplus rifles).
Alterations made as repairs are fine.

It's only alterations that were never done to that gun and have no historical relevance that could cause them to lose C&R status. And it's not illegal to do...you can hack as many C&R rifles into as many configurations as you want. They'd just technically lose C&R status for future sales.

And I'm curious if the ATF has ever decided to go after anyone, ever, for a milsurp rifle he bought, tweaked to his liking, and later sold. I guess if you sell it down the road just reverse any non-historical, non-collector-y modifications you've made to be on the safe side.
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Old May 12, 2009, 08:19 AM   #11
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It's only alterations that were never done to that gun and have no historical relevance that could cause them to lose C&R status. And it's not illegal to do...you can hack as many C&R rifles into as many configurations as you want. They'd just technically lose C&R status for future sales.
I can see the potential pie fight with the BATFE if they find you have an "unapproved" alteration on a C&R firearm. Would you have to prove that it was unaltered, and therefore C&R-eligible, when purchased?
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Old May 12, 2009, 05:29 PM   #12
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Not any more than you'd have to prove you've never shot anyone...the onus is on them.

But I was talking about the actual likelihood that you'd ever pop up on their radar, that they'd notice someone like that, and that they'd care.

I mean you'd have to have them paying you a visit already, and someone familiar with that particular multiple-decades-out-of-production-and-probably-foreign rifle would have to be there to notice that that particular scope was never paired with it, and they'd have to have reason to believe you bought it from out of state as C&R instead of going through an 01, AND they'd have to go after you for it.

We're not talking about chopping Garand barrels down to 10" here; we're talking about a period-incorrect stock. Again, worst case is you swap it back to original before you sell to an out-of-state 03...or you just sell it to an 01 or whomever you want in-state since it's just a regular rifle at that point. It's not illegal to un-C&R a C&R; C&R rules just don't apply to it.
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Old May 12, 2009, 05:32 PM   #13
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ATF has ruled that only permanent changes will cause a C&R firearm to lose its status. They say that as long as you retain all of the original parts and can "readily" convert the firearm back to original, it is still a C&R.
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Old May 12, 2009, 08:07 PM   #14
James K
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As I understand, and have been told by BATFE, the gun must be 50 years old in its current configuration. So a Mauser made in 1944, and unaltered, became a C&R in 1994. But if the rifle has been restocked, rebarrelled, a scope mounted, etc., it became a "new" gun when that work was done. So if the work was done in 1989, the rifle still has 30 years to go before it becomes a C&R.

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Old May 12, 2009, 08:17 PM   #15
BobbyT
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No, that's incorrect. We've been discussing the finer points of what exactly kicks a rifle out of C&R status, but restocking/rebarreling certainly don't.
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Old May 19, 2009, 01:16 PM   #16
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No, that's incorrect. We've been discussing the finer points of what exactly kicks a rifle out of C&R status, but restocking/rebarreling certainly don't.
You may want to check your source on that info. If you put a sporter stock or custom barrel on a mil-surp c&r it is no longer c&r. It must retain it's original configuration.
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Old May 19, 2009, 03:29 PM   #17
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Sorry, by REstocking or REbarreling I meant replacing a (presumably worn or broken) one.

If your barrel wears out in your Mosin and you replace it in 2009, that doesn't suddenly reset its C&R eligibility to 2009...even the ATF isn't that ridiculous. If you saw your Mosin barrel off to 16", then yeah that would kick it out of C&R status.

Likewise, if you mounted a scope on something that never had a scope, you wouldn't suddenly have a "2059 C&R". You'd have the same gun, you'd just need to pull the scope off before you resold it as a C&R.
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Old May 19, 2009, 03:53 PM   #18
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Likewise, if you mounted a scope on something that never had a scope, you wouldn't suddenly have a "2059 C&R". You'd have the same gun, you'd just need to pull the scope off before you resold it as a C&R.
That is an interesting assertion. I am under the impression that, technically speaking although you would never be caught, if you put a stock that does not model the original issue stock on an SKS it loses it's C&R status even if you then return it to original configuration. I find it odd that this would not be true concerning a scope.

I can see why there would be a general exception for sights and optics though.

Also I believe you can use a synthetic material as long as the stock is the same shape as the original issue.
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Old May 19, 2009, 05:36 PM   #19
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are you guys reading from the same book I am? 478.11 definition of curio and relics: firearms which were manufactured at least 50 prior to the current date, but not replicas thereof.

that is all there is regarding age. and nothing about modification.
I can't find anything about modifing an import after it is imported making it c&r inelligible.

so to answer your original question, buy that sporter
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Old May 19, 2009, 07:00 PM   #20
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Keep reading
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Old May 20, 2009, 05:05 PM   #21
smoakingun
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Keep reading where? The only other info I can find involves import. For import the weapon must be in origional configuration, but there is provision for barreled actions to be imported as c&r. I can't find anything about a modification made by an individual causing it to loose it's c&r status. Now if a manufacture, like gibbs rifle company, imports them for remanufacture, then follows through, that is a different provision entirely.
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Old May 20, 2009, 05:32 PM   #22
Orlando
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Read your book of rules, frequintly asked questions, the ATF website. Its in all three. I dont have time to look it up for you. Still dont understand call the ATF
Just as if you have a C&R fiearm and you strip it down for parts and sell them off. The receiver is no longer a C&R because it is not in original configuration
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Old May 20, 2009, 10:26 PM   #23
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check your info. No such question in faq section. However, check the introduction section of your curio and relics list.

Importation Restrictions:
"...A surplus military firearm is defined as one that belonged to a regular or irregular military force at any time. Alteration of the firearm does not change it's status. Therefore, a sporting firearm with a surplus military frame or reciever is a surplus military firearm, because a frame or reciever is classified as a firearm as described in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3)"

The fed does not care what stock configuration you have, buy or sell, unless the barrel is less that 16" long.

I did read my rule book. Now it is your turn.
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Old May 21, 2009, 05:32 AM   #24
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Its in there, I have also personally talked to the ATF about this very subject. Hey, you dont have to agree
I know the rules, I dont have to defend my stand.
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Old May 21, 2009, 06:04 PM   #25
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ok
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