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Old April 15, 2009, 07:09 PM   #1
DanThaMan
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Adrenalin+Nerves=Distress

I probably sound like a broken record player because I know many users on here have probably said this before but I don't feel the need to sift through thousands of posts to make sure. I want to reinforce the commonly proposed notion that in a situation which the use of force is necessary, you really aren't thinking straight. Recently, I was attacked (tackled from behind, got up, and it became a boxing match). Despite me preparing myself in the past for any type of physical altercation, I still am simply shocked at how crazy it was. My mind was in a frenzy and all I could think to do was hit him in the face as hard and as many times as possible. No moves or strategies that I learned from years of wrestling and doing MMA wih buddies helped.

From this, I hope you all take something valuable. Maybe you will think twice before tricking out your guns with 4 pounds of hardware that glows, helps grip, and scratches your ass while you're shooting bad guys. All that hardware will be in a firefight is extra weight that you won't remember why you got because it's such a burden. Learn to shoot simple, and make it muscle memory so you don't have to rely on thinking. I never understood what people meant before the attack.
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Old April 15, 2009, 08:30 PM   #2
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true

I have been shooting for 40+ years and never at more then paper or Deer. The one and only time I pointed a gun at another human being I was thinking "I wonder what vomit will do to the finish". I have trained with the local police but NOTHING gets the ordinary guy ready for that day. I am glad you came out okay. I didn't have to shoot the guy(thank GOD) he ran off screaming something about OH S*@t. But I was done for the day.
Please don't start with the if you draw your weapon you better be ready to use it. I was but when I saw his back the threat was over.
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Old April 15, 2009, 08:42 PM   #3
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Quote:
Maybe you will think twice before tricking out your guns with 4 pounds of hardware that glows, helps grip, and scratches your ass while you're shooting bad guys.
The "hardware" I've "tricked" my #1 carry gun with helps in several areas.

1. The Hogue grip sleeve improves my hand hold which improves my aim and follow up capability.
2. The Trijicon night sights improve my ability to aim in low light situations.

Quote:
All that hardware will be in a firefight is extra weight that you won't remember why you got because it's such a burden. Learn to shoot simple, and make it muscle memory so you don't have to rely on thinking.
I know how to shoot, thank you, and I can put a full mag in the 10 circle at any reasonable SD distance. The above-mentioned hardware helps me not have to actually"think" about aiming and firing.
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Old April 15, 2009, 08:50 PM   #4
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Dan,

The time I had to hold a man at gunpoint we had a 'plan' on how to capture him (he was a burgler who had been ripping off my parents for weeks.) Well the plan went wrong when he showed up unexpectly. All I could think of saying, when I jumped out from the door was, 'Just stay'.

And later, in the Virgin Islands, when a purse snatcher snatched a woman’s purse and ran, it was so sudden with my wife saying something like, "go get him", I just threw off my sunglasses and hat and ran. Yes we caught him (there were two of us) but even then there was a struggle and he almost slipped out of my wrist lock I had on him. Strong he was.

No, Brother Murphy is always there and nothing ever goes to plan. Every time I see a Van Dame movie where he knows all the right moves and every hit he takes leaves just a little bruise, well it IS entertainment, right? Yes it’s fantacy.
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Old April 15, 2009, 09:50 PM   #5
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I probably sound like a broken record player because I know many users on here have probably said this before but I don't feel the need to sift through thousands of posts to make sure.

I want to reinforce the commonly proposed notion that in a situation which the use of force is necessary, you really aren't thinking straight. Recently, I was attacked (tackled from behind, got up, and it became a boxing match). Despite me preparing myself in the past for any type of physical altercation, I still am simply shocked at how crazy it was.

My mind was in a frenzy and all I could think to do was hit him in the face as hard and as many times as possible. No moves or strategies that I learned from years of wrestling and doing MMA wih buddies helped.

From this, I hope you all take something valuable. Maybe you will think twice before tricking out your guns with 4 pounds of hardware that glows, helps grip, and scratches your ass while you're shooting bad guys. All that hardware will be in a firefight is extra weight that you won't remember why you got because it's such a burden. Learn to shoot simple, and make it muscle memory so you don't have to rely on thinking. I never understood what people meant before the attack. End Quote:
_______________

The BEST anyone could POSSIBLY do is default to his or her training, but pressure of a traumatic spontaneous experience changes everything. When i talk to people about defensive GUN situations and how people react, they take for granted those factors because its impossible to reproduce them during training, after all training is make believe to the brain no matter how real we try to make it.

A spontaneous situation creates a 1-2 second freeze of the body because the brain needs to realize and determine what the hell is going on. Like being tackle from behind, once you brain realized what was happening you went to a survival mode reaction.

Same stuff happens in shootings, people think they'll react like they train, hopefully they will, but the element of surprise gunfire in public/private passive surroundings is traumatic, will you be able to summon your skills instantly in real life non make believe situations. Can you draw quickly without fumbling, will you move out of the kill zone, will you cover, can you aim, can you pull the trigger correctly, can you do all those things while moving, or will you panic.
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Old April 16, 2009, 02:49 AM   #6
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From this, I hope you all take something valuable. Maybe you will think twice before tricking out your guns with 4 pounds of hardware that glows, helps grip, and scratches your ass while you're shooting bad guys. All that hardware will be in a firefight is extra weight that you won't remember why you got because it's such a burden. Learn to shoot simple, and make it muscle memory so you don't have to rely on thinking. I never understood what people meant before the attack.
So you got in a fist fight with a guy and from that you have determined that accessories that might help with things like grip (or anything else, apparently) aren't beneficial and should be avoided?

You know this because you didn't use a gun in the fight? Did the accessories on your gun somehow keep you from using it in a situation that as you have described, didn't require lethal force? Did those accessories somehow keep you from thinking?

Sorry, but the justification for claim you are making isn't supporting the claim you are making.
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Old April 16, 2009, 03:10 AM   #7
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Maybe you will think twice before tricking out your guns with 4 pounds of hardware that glows, helps grip, and scratches your ass while you're shooting bad guys.

The "hardware" I've "tricked" my #1 carry gun with helps in several areas.

1. The Hogue grip sleeve improves my hand hold which improves my aim and follow up capability.
2. The Trijicon night sights improve my ability to aim in low light situations.


Quote:
All that hardware will be in a firefight is extra weight that you won't remember why you got because it's such a burden. Learn to shoot simple, and make it muscle memory so you don't have to rely on thinking.

I know how to shoot, thank you, and I can put a full mag in the 10 circle at any reasonable SD distance. The above-mentioned hardware helps me not have to actually"think" about aiming and firing.
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It's late, and I'm tired.

I wanted to "mark my place" so I could come back later and reply.

Biker

OK, it's later and I'm well rested.

Some changes to a gun can be useful and help you. I have Crimson Trace Laser Grips on my Primary Off Duty Gun and will soon add them to my BUG. I'm also a fan of Night Sights.

These are changes that help one to shoot better under stress I have found. Things that don't help, are ultra light competition triggers, Match Barrels and "competition packages" IMHO.

Adrenelin is a funny thing. It saves us from the tiger, by feeding "gas" to our body to fight the tiger, or run from the tiger, but it reduces our fine motor skills. That reduction of fine motor skill is why I don't like "light" triggers on a defensive gun. I do like "smooth" triggers though and see no problem with having a 'smith polish out the "grittiness", but this can be done by the shooter too by firing the gun a lot in practice and doing nightly dry firing.

Things that help you to "see" where your bullets are going to go, sights, are critical in my opinion, as is being able to hold on to the gun. As far as thinking, You had better be thinking. Fighting an attacker is a thinking man or woman's game. Getting off the X, tactics, cover, being flanked and multiple adversaries are all things one has to consider.

Blind Panic is what you can't allow to happen. That takes thought. Just a word to the wise, Gunfights are won by tactics. As they say, "It's the Indian, not the arrow that wins the battle."

Not all changes to a gun are bad, just as not all are good. The thing is, you have to be able to "justify" why you made the changes you did. I can tell you from personal expirience that sometimes you will revert to your training and sometimes you won't. There are many factors to take in regards to this. Some of them are training, lack of sleep, alertness prior to the attack, prescription drug influence and various other things.

The thing is, if you don't at least train then you don't have anything in your memory bank to revert to, and it might just be what saves your life. If it saves you, great. If it doesn't, you will most likely not be any worse off than if you didn't have it in your "Bank" in the first place.

You may not be conscious of your thought process, but subliminally it is taking place, and you are responding to the information your body is receiving. You just have to know what to do with that information. That's where training comes in.

OK, I'm done. I hope somebody was able to learn something from what I typed and it's helpful to someone.

Biker

Last edited by BikerRN; April 16, 2009 at 11:05 AM. Reason: reply posted
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Old April 16, 2009, 06:04 AM   #8
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I think he just means dont over emphasize the small stuff and concentrate on the basics. One thing I'll add is mindset plays a part in your ability to function in a life or death situation. Learn about Jeff Coopers color codes of awareness theory. If you had just asked yourself how you would handle a situation before it happens youd be much better off than otherwise.
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Old April 16, 2009, 08:16 AM   #9
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+1 to Tim...
While no 2 humans are the exact same, I am positive, from previous experiences in life and training, that I will not crack under pressure nor will the adrenaline rush do anything but assist me. Granted, I may not speak as plain, clear or proper as I plan to and a few expletives may be used but I know what physical affects I will have.
I do believe 100% in keeping my plan as simple as possible!
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Old April 16, 2009, 10:51 AM   #10
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I think he just means dont over emphasize the small stuff and concentrate on the basics.
No, I am pretty sure he plainly stated that accessories were nothing but extra weight and would be nothing but a burden in a fight...apparently based on his boxing experience.
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Old April 16, 2009, 01:56 PM   #11
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Learn to shoot simple, and make it muscle memory so you don't have to rely on thinking. I never understood what people meant before the attack.
And that is exactly why some of us push the concept of reality-based training that emphasizes natural reactions, as opposed to trying to train those reactions out of you. Your years of wrestling and MMA became essentially useless when your body went into a natural defensive mode due to surprise and shock. No matter how much one trains, no matter how experienced they are, all they can do is push that unthinking reactive mode furtgher back down the line, but you never get rid of it.
Quote:
All that hardware will be in a firefight is extra weight that you won't remember why you got because it's such a burden.
I would disagree to some extent here. Some thinigs, such as improved sights and grips, add no complications to the gun while also allowing enhanced response IF your body and mind allow it. So there is little downside to some of the changes, even if there is very limited upside.
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Old April 17, 2009, 06:28 AM   #12
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No moves or strategies that I learned from years of wrestling and doing MMA wih buddies helped.
Dan,
Wrestling is a ground fighting game, the last place you want to be in a street fight is on the deck!

Your wanting to punch as apposed to grip is a natural instinct, not a bad one, for once you grip a person with your hands, you are anchored in one spot, not good either, especially if there is more than one aggressor set against you.

Just about the only factor that gives the ability to win fights, is to be in a bunch of them!
Not really a good thing in this day and age of political correctness.

From 1960 till 1965 I worked on the doors of Night Clubs in Liverpool UK, part time, three nights a week, coupled with a full time day job meant that injury time was not going to be paid for, also would curb the other full time occupation, full time Dad.

The first and only really important lesson, one that you were not able to jump to, you only have any kind of edge in a fight, if you start it!

Dan, you were lucky, the person who attacked you from behind could not fight either! Otherwise you would have been hit with a weapon of some kind, or stabbed. Think of the location, your mind set, what you remember of the little tells that led into this incident, floating along in what Uncle Jeff described as condition white can be dangerous to your health.

Your comment on 4 lbs of gun bits is quite true, TruGlow night sights, smooth trigger, and a near automatic draw when required doesn't weigh much though.
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Old April 17, 2009, 06:50 AM   #13
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I would disagree to some extent here. Some thinigs, such as improved sights and grips, add no complications to the gun while also allowing enhanced response IF your body and mind allow it.
Wow, I am going to have to go mark the calender that DA and I agree on something! Where is my thermometer. Maybe I have a fever, LOL!

Seriously, at one time, sights on a firearm were an "accessory" as were a safety (something of a crutch for those who could not aim a tube very well), trigger guard, detachable magazine, a sling, etc. Night sights are a benefit that certainly doesn't add an weight, but is a handy accessory. Some of today's "accessories" are tomorrow's standard features.

Just because it is an accessory does not make it bad, or good for that matter. It has to be something that is particularly beneficial to you that you know how to use properly.
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Old April 21, 2009, 06:57 PM   #14
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Let me clarify... when i said "trick the gun out" i really meant to overdo it. Sure, hogue grips, night sights, and lasers are a few improvements which will be greatly appretiated. Anything that makes using the gun simpler, instead of adding to the complicity of operating it.
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Old April 21, 2009, 07:49 PM   #15
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So.......if I understand you correctly, you're saying that something like this would be a tad overkill, right?

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Old April 21, 2009, 08:34 PM   #16
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Maybe you will think twice before tricking out your guns with 4 pounds of hardware that glows, helps grip, and scratches your ass while you're shooting bad guys
Glows: Night sights? I fail to see anything bad about night sights. They are a must for a HD gun if you ask me.

Helps grip: The relationship between your hand and your firearm is a very import one. Why wouldn't you want to enhance it?

4 pounds of hardware: Yes, anything that adds an extra 4 pounds to a firearm is useless in my opinion.
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Old April 22, 2009, 05:38 PM   #17
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Glad you're okay after your experience.

Yes, 'real world' experience can often reveal a potential 'disconnect' between training and being able to apply it, as well as whether the training is even applicable and sufficient to meet the needs of actual situations and circumstances encountered.

Unfortunately, not everyone has the inclination or opportunity to acquire experience so they can continually evaluate their performance under the stress of unexpected, dynamic, rapidly evolving, chaotic physical encounters where mental & emotional preparation is arguably of even greater importance than physical and equipment preparations considerations.

Who in their right mind wants to experience those situations if they can possibly be avoided, though, in the first place?

Sometimes a job or service responsibility places us in situations and circumstances where things like that can occur, though, which is why LE & military responsibilities come with at least some level of required training ... training which has hopefully been based in the lessons learned by other folks (and probably at dear cost).

Training can be effectively used in situations for which the training has been designed to be appropriate and effectively employed. That's the trick, though, isn't it? Having training suitable to the desired circumstances ... and then being able to retain and maintain a high level of those skills, coupled with the mental/emotional state of mind necessary to effectively perform them.

Luck and good timing shouldn't be snubbed if it comes our way, though, either.

I can understand your feeling about the rush and shakes after the event. After having been involved in the diligent and serious practice of some martial arts for almost a decade, the first time someone tried to kill me with a knife it resulted in the shakes and nervousness ... afterward. During the situation I resorted to my training and was able to prevent suffering serious injury. I was fortunate that much of my training had been rooted in practical methods and techniques. It probably helped that my first instructor had survived a lot of special activities in SE Asia in the late 60's, I suppose, and that another older instructor had a very 'reality-based' training philosophy with some aggressive training opportunities.

By the time I entered LE work I found I had a significant inculcation related to mental preparedness & state-of-mind. My LE experiences built upon that foundation.

In a perfect world I would prefer my children and grand children were not required to learn those lessons, though.

Summation?

The mind must be prepared.

Physical preparation is important.

The focus on equipment shouldn't distract, or detract, from mental/emotional/psychological preparation which may be critical to surviving a situation and then being able to continue to enjoy the good quality of life previously experienced.

If you don't mind my asking, however, how did you manage to find yourself in the situation where you were tackled from behind? Job related?

Awareness and a realistic perception of your immediate environment (without being paranoid) can help reduce the risk of exposure to some types of situations. I'm guessing you already reassessed what happened, and anything you could have done to reduce the potential for this to have occurred in the first place. Care to share any of those thoughts?
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Old April 26, 2009, 10:02 PM   #18
buck9
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I mean no offence

The question I have is has anyone who responded to this thread ever pointed a weapon at another human being and pulled the trigger? I am at odds with myself if I could do this? If not should I get rid of my guns and just be a victim ?
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Old April 27, 2009, 02:06 AM   #19
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I mean no offence

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The question I have is has anyone who responded to this thread ever pointed a weapon at another human being and pulled the trigger? I am at odds with myself if I could do this? If not should I get rid of my guns and just be a victim ?
I have been in three armed encounters where I was in the act of pulling the trigger when something stayed my hand I did not have to fire my weapon.

I made a decision long before I carried a gun that I would allow no other human being to harm me if I could avoid it, or prevent it. In each of my armed encounters I was ready, but the aggessive action ceased in time to possible save a life, not my own.

If you do not know if you could do this, then put the gun away, sell it and buy some Pepper Spray and a whistle. What I suggest you do is think long and hard about what it means to take a life. Massad Ayoob has a saying that I think is appropriate; "There are no winners in a gunfight, only survivors." I will use a gun because the alternative is worse.

The alternative is death to me. I am too selfish to give you my life, as I like mine just fine. I'm not a big hunter, but I do go hunting on occaision. I do it so that I may know, even though an animal's life is nowhere near as precious as a human life, what it means to take a living breathing living thing and be responsible for it's death.

Firearms are a tool of last resort. The reason I carry one is because I have seen evil and I'm around true evil almost every working day of my life. I know what they are capable of, and quite frankly it scares me. Also, as I said before, I'm selfish. I will use what tools I have to preserve my life, or the life of a loved one or a third party.

Guns are not a talisman that keeps harm at bay. Because I carry a gun I go to fewer places than I would if I didn't carry a gun. I do this to avoid trouble. In short, I carry a gun everywhere, but I avoid places where I know I'm going to need a gun.

Taking a life is not a question anyone can answer for you. You have to do your own soul searching for that answer, and there is no right or wrong answer. Part of my asking myself if I'm able is the hunting I do, or the slaughtering of a beef or pig that I've raised and fed and then slaughter to put food on the table.

It's not the same, but it does provide some insight and can be used as an opportunity for some deep soul searching if you are honest with yourself.

Biker
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Old April 27, 2009, 07:07 PM   #20
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Biker

Thank you very much wise words. I guess I have some thinking to do?
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Old May 6, 2009, 09:29 PM   #21
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Fastbolt-- I was on campus walking with some buddies and we stopped to play catch with a frisbee. I was knelt down watching, and another student who secretly had problems with me took the advantage of my defenseless and low-alert position to make an attack. His choice of engagement was tackling me. I hit my head so hard on the concrete, i hardly remember what happened next. I shoved him off me, stood up, and quickly assessed what had just happened. I saw the face of my attacker and was in shock that he would do such a thing, my thought giving him time to get up and re-engage. By this time is was a boxing match... which I won thankfully (he got stitches above his eye and fell to the ground, i got a shiner). If you can define a winner in such a fight... Either way i was just shocked at how distraught i was. If i had been thining like i do when i rough around with friends or am on the wrestling mat... that kid would have had some serious problems. The only thing that was going through my head to to strike him in the face as hard and as many times as i possibly could. When he fell to the ground i started to think again and walked away.
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Old May 6, 2009, 11:16 PM   #22
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After a couple of intensive days of range training we start running students through live fire tactical houses. They go through 2-3 times, searching out and engaging bad guy targets and hopefully, holding their fire on the no-shoot targets. Once they are comfortable with moving and shooting we set them up with a Simunitions pistol & they have to locate and engage one of the instructors (who also has a Simunitions pistol). The student gets ONE round in his gun and the instructor ALWAYS waits until the student shoots before he returns fire. The vast and overwhelming majority of students (who enter the house with their pistol at low ready) pop off their one round right in front of their feet. Sometimes the instructor gets paint splattered on his boot. Yes, even students who have had professional training before do it. There's just something about engaging a real, live, human adversary who is holding a GUN that throws everything you *think* you'll do out the window, even when you *know* that it has non-lethal rounds in it and you're absolutely certain that you're not going to get a big hole blown in you.
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