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Old May 6, 2009, 11:38 AM   #1
Mr. Davis
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10 College Students at a party, 2 Masked Gunmen Burst In

This was reported May 4:

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/19365762/detail.html

Quote:
COLLEGE PARK, Ga. -- A group of college students said they are lucky to be alive and they’re thanking the quick-thinking of one of their own. Police said a fellow student shot and killed one of two masked me who burst into an apartment.

Channel 2 Action News reporter Tom Jones met with one of the students to talk about the incident.

“Apparently, his intent was to rape and murder us all,” said student Charles Bailey.

TOM JONES: College Student Shoots, Kills Home Invader

Bailey said he thought it was the end of his life and the lives of the 10 people inside his apartment for a birthday party after two masked men with guns burst in through a patio door.

“They just came in and separated the men from the women and said, ‘Give me your wallets and cell phones,’” said George Williams of the College Park Police Department.

Bailey said the gunmen started counting bullets. “The other guy asked how many (bullets) he had. He said he had enough,” said Bailey.

That’s when one student grabbed a gun out of a backpack and shot at the invader who was watching the men. The gunman ran out of the apartment.

The student then ran to the room where the second gunman, identified by police as 23-year-old Calvin Lavant, was holding the women.

“Apparently the guy was getting ready to rape his girlfriend. So he told the girls to get down and he started shooting. The guy jumped out of the window,” said Bailey.

A neighbor heard the shots and heard someone running nearby.

“And I heard someone say, ‘Someone help me. Call the police. Somebody call the police,’” said a neighbor.

The neighbor said she believes it was Lavant, who was found dead near his apartment, only one building away.

Bailey said he is just thankful one student risked his life to keep others alive.

“I think all of us are really cognizant of the fact that we could have all been killed,” said Bailey.

One female student was shot several times during the crossfire. She is expected to make a full recovery.

Police said they are close to making the arrest of the second suspect.
I would love to hear your assessments: here are mine.

One student had a concealed firearm, but waited until it was exceedingly clear everyone's life or well being was in jeopardy before acting. He was (I think rightfully) willing to comply with requests for wallets and cell phones without escalating the situation, but acted when it was clear the BGs intended to kill and rape. I think this was good restraint, especially considering the potential collateral damage in a packed apartment.

Speaking of collateral damage, when the GG started shooting, that decision directly or indirectly resulted in injury to one of the women in the apartment, who was "shot in the crossfire". I think, even if the GG's bullets were the ones that hit her, he acted in the right because the possibility of collateral damage was outweighed by the near certainty of rape and murder at the hands of the thugs.

So a question for the gallery: In the case of a cramped apartment bedroom, with an armed rapist probably already on top of one woman, and four others in unknown positions around the room, is it a good idea to shoot? I think yes - I can't think of another alternative, and the guy just heard his friend get shot at, so he's ready to pull the trigger himself.

Last edited by Mr. Davis; May 6, 2009 at 09:51 PM.
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Old May 6, 2009, 11:43 AM   #2
5whiskey
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My take is I think there is greater danger in this world of letting evil men get away with murder while good men are too paralyzed by fear of litigation to act.

My .02
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Old May 6, 2009, 11:44 AM   #3
doh_312
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I think this turned out as best as it could. GG was out numbered and out gunned plus they BGs separated. Certainly hope if I'm ever in this kind of problem I come out as well.
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Old May 6, 2009, 11:52 AM   #4
KingEdward
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okay to shoot in a cramped apartment with rapist and BG already committing crimes.

Would have to say yes, okay to shoot to stop crime / threat.

It is clear that during and after in this situation, most of them thought they were going to die regardless.

This is not a fun thought but do I want to die fighting (and/or shooting)
or die on my knees the way they choose.

Terrible that the girl got hit in the crossfire but thankful that she is recovering.

Everyone is alive. Could have been an absolute tragedy.
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Old May 6, 2009, 11:53 AM   #5
Brian Pfleuger
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Sounds like he did what he should have done.

Compliance until it becomes clear that compliance is too dangerous, then act, and act decisively.
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Old May 6, 2009, 11:58 AM   #6
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+1 to Wheeler... My sentiments zackly!
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Old May 6, 2009, 12:10 PM   #7
David Armstrong
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Quote:
Compliance until it becomes clear that compliance is too dangerous, then act, and act decisively
Exactly. Compliance usually works, use it first. When it becomes apparent that compliance creates more danger than fighting, fight. Minimize the loss of resources, whatever that might entail.
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Old May 6, 2009, 12:10 PM   #8
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The injuries to the female are, of course, very regrettable, but the most regrettable aspect of this event is that one of the criminals survived.

Kudos to the good guy who put an end to things.
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Old May 6, 2009, 12:44 PM   #9
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He did good. Too bad the other guy got away. More of them should have been armed in my opnion.
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Old May 6, 2009, 01:22 PM   #10
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Saw a related article

I believe the student with the weapon was in Marine Corps ROTC; not sure if prior enlisted.
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Old May 6, 2009, 02:11 PM   #11
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It would be interesting to find out if the girl's injuries were caused by the GG's or the BG's bullets. I imagine that the BG's erratic and panicked return fire is the likely culprit, but even if the GG was the only one to fire shots, he did the best thing he could have in an f'd up situation. Kudos to that guy. He saved ten lives, no question about it.
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Old May 6, 2009, 02:30 PM   #12
Mr. Davis
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Yeah, it's probably a fair assumption that the BG fired over his shoulder as he dove out the window. Overpenetration of the GG's bullets could also be a culprit at the very close ranges involved. Here's hoping the girl was shot by the BG. I'd hate to see overprotective parents sue this hero for saving the life of their child and her friends.
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Old May 6, 2009, 03:57 PM   #13
Mr. Davis
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More information from HotAir.com. Here's a video. I can't see it at work, so hopefully it's good coverage.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/05/0...ndment-lesson/
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Old May 6, 2009, 04:23 PM   #14
skoro
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For the student who decided to act: well done.

I don't think anyone who has a weapon at hand should assume good intentions on the part of armed intruders.
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Old May 6, 2009, 04:27 PM   #15
Dubs
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I wouldn't be surprised to see the college subsequently ban the student for having a handgun on campus. They would have expected him to picket the thugs.
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Old May 6, 2009, 05:33 PM   #16
elrod
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Quote:
I wouldn't be surprised to see the college subsequently ban the student for having a handgun on campus. They would have expected him to picket the thugs.
Hopefully not. I'm thinking this is an off-campus apartment where the adminstration has no say-so about the students carrying arms. I would be interested in hearing the reaction of those female students. Kudos to the armed student!
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Old May 6, 2009, 05:34 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
Compliance until it becomes clear that compliance is too dangerous, then act, and act decisively.
Peetza, I am curious, what criteria would you use to determine when compliance is too dangerous? Do you have rules of thumb?

I have watched several debates on TFL about compliance vs resistance so I decided to look about a bit.

I am not a criminologist (although my bachelors degree was in criminology too long ago to mention) but there is a guy guy named Dr. Gary Kleck who is and is well known. I have read a lot of articles by Dr. Kleck and since the NRA likes him and the Bradys don't, I take that as a ringing endorsement

Anyway, here is what his take is on the resist/comply issue:

This is a documentary by a fellow named Larry Elder and it is very good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYxGVIMVohw

Pay attention to about 8:21 till the end of the segment.

And here is another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glHMRVafFZI

and pay attention on this clip to 01:54 to 02:07.

I will let you all draw your own conclusions but my take is that the conventional wisdom (which I think was intended for the unarmed public) that you should comply to avoid injury might not be so good an idea today if you are armed and can resist.

Finally, what I seem to see as good advice is; comply only if you do not have the advantage (cover, distance, weapon or concealment etc) and only comply until you have the advantage and then never relinquish it if you can get it (advantage) and then use it to protect yourself.
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Old May 6, 2009, 05:50 PM   #18
tshadow6
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party invasion

Congratulations to the good guy. I love it when the bad guys get what's coming to them. Think of all the taxpayer money that was saved. Now, the woman that got shot, better to be shot than raped then murdered. I always carried when I was attending college.
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Old May 6, 2009, 06:15 PM   #19
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Tenessee, good question.

Quote:
Peetza, I am curious, what criteria would you use to determine when compliance is too dangerous? Do you have rules of thumb?
On these forums, I see this kind of thing debated endlessly. Unfortunately, I don't think this question really has validity. The answer is completely case by case. Without seeing the BG, their actions, their body language, and their state of mind, the answer to this is going to be different in every situation.

Anything in life is subject to interpretation, and unfortunately, this kind of after action nitpicking is what drives our shameless litigation. The situation determines what the answer is. If it is a couple of nervous teenagers, the "how many bullets" question might be a sign of fear. If it is a couple of mob hitmen, this question becomes an entirely different matter.
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Old May 6, 2009, 06:39 PM   #20
Mr. Davis
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I just watched the video (firewall at work prevented that earlier).

Very good coverage from the local news station - no criticism of the hero who acted in defense of his life and those of his friends. The video confirms that the two perps "had been watching him", meaning the guy who lived there.
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Old May 6, 2009, 06:49 PM   #21
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I support the actions of the student who chose to defend himself and his friends. I think he did the right thing. God Bless him!
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Old May 6, 2009, 06:59 PM   #22
Deaf Smith
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The fact that they broke into a appartment with people present, had guns drawn, and talked about how many bullets they had, is enough to do anything, even a banzi change, to try to stop them.

The student did well. In fact, I'd give him a medal!

Hate the woman was shot (and I hope she makes a 100 percent recovery.)

The one that got away needs to be caught and changed with murder (they started it and thus it's all on their head.)
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Old May 6, 2009, 07:00 PM   #23
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Reno, Nv., Halloween night, 2007. Two men crashed a party. One rather big fellow picked a fight with a University of Nevada basketball player while he was dancing and beat him senseless, while the man's friend, armed with a gun, kept others at bay.

The player was relieved of his wallet in the process. When some of the young men (unarmed students) attempted to intervene, three of them were shot dead by the one who initiated the fight--- at least one student was chased down and executed with shots to the head.

Things went from party crashing, to armed robbery, to triple murder in no time flat. Don't know what the initial intent of the two assailants was.

Their car was stopped down the road as they were leaving the scene, and they were taken into custody.

Samisoni Taukitoku will spend his remaining days in prison after three murder convictions (after some how avoiding the death penalty). His partner, Saili Manu will be in prison for a while, also on somewhat lesser charges. Neither men had prior criminal records.

The ball player was dismissed from the team for violating team rules.

Last edited by Nnobby45; May 6, 2009 at 07:08 PM.
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Old May 6, 2009, 07:22 PM   #24
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Quote:
Speaking of collateral damage, when the GG started shooting, he directly or indirectly caused injury to one of the women in the apartment, who was "shot in the crossfire".
NO, the GG did not cause indirect injury to the woman in the apartment if she was shot by the BG. Now if the GG shot her, that is another matter, but you can't blame him for protecting his life and the lives of others if someone is injured by the BG, especially when it became clear they intended to shoot people. That became evident here...

Quote:
Bailey said the gunmen started counting bullets. “The other guy asked how many (bullets) he had. He said he had enough,” said Bailey.
Blaming the GG for injuries caused by the BG is ridiculous.

Quote:
Exactly. Compliance usually works,...
Sure enough, but certainly not always.
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Old May 6, 2009, 08:24 PM   #25
Enoy21
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Dear God. I have a 13 yr old daughter .... I printed this thread off for her to read and realize how dangerous and often such a thing happens.


THANK YOU for making this post.

and THANK GOD and the student who took actions for those actions.
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