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Old May 6, 2009, 12:44 AM   #1
mustang66maniac
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Which has more energy: 45+P or 10mm?

I'm not sure which is the right term to use here, but I'm wondering which round would have more "knock down" power. I was looking at Hornady's ballistics charts and comparing the 10mm 200gr to the .45 +P 200gr. It looks like they both have nearly identical muzzle velocities and very similar velocities out farther away. They also have nearly the same muzzle energy. Does this mean that they would have nearly the same knock down power? Or is it just not that simple? Please edjumicate me.
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Old May 6, 2009, 01:13 AM   #2
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The 10mm is without a doubt much more powerful that the .45ACP +P and approaches that of the .41 Magnum. Hornady 10mm ammo appears to be the FBI 10mm "lite" load. The "design" 10mm load was a 200 gr bullet at 1200 FPS not 1050 FPS as loaded by Hornady. To see the real potential of the 10mm you need to look at Double Tap ammo. There is a 200 gr LGC with 1300 FPS out of a G20. http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...2bcf8d26fb3d16
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Old May 6, 2009, 02:33 AM   #3
Lost Sheep
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What is your target?

Knock down power is a misleading term, though evocative of what every shooter seeks, so is useful. No handgun bullet will knock down any animal bigger than a medium sized dog (unless it was off-balance already).

However, clearly, the 10mm has more power, even than the 45 ACP+p. But the .45 throws a bigger slug. Apples and oranges.

Since energy is proportional to the square of the velocity, and 10mm has a lot more velocity, the 10 has more energy.

Since Momentum is proportional to velocity, with the greater mass, the 11mm (better known as the 45 ACP) has more momentum.

Wound channel is related to bullet size and penetration. The 45 (heavier and larger frontal area) clearly has the edge there.

Now, "knock-down power" is not necessarily directly related to any of these theoretical things. A lot depends on the flesh being hit.

If I were expecting to be shooting a peccary, 10mm is the proper choice. With a solid slug, as heavy as my gun will handle. If shooting a person, 45 ACP or 45 ACP+p, no contest. Peccary, javelina, wolf, coyote, all are more heavily muscled than humans and need greater penetration. A 10mm will tend to punch right through a human, but where the 45 ACP may not reach the vitals of of a wild pig, it will easily go deep enough to convince a person (through death, blood loss, broken bone or whatever) to stop doing whatever he is doing that got your gun unholstered.

The two rounds are really targeted for totally different uses, and there really is very little overlap. 10mm for heavily muscled, thick-skinned game that requires good penetration. 45 ACP for lightly muscled, thin-skinned game through with you don't want through-and-through penetration.

Now, experience with the 40S&W (which used to be called, derisively, the "10mm Short") has been shown to be effective in "social shooting" (people to people) situations. That indicates that a 10mm -p would be good for people, just as the 45 +p might be good for some game animals. So, there is overlap, and plenty of folks have used AMT Long-Slide 45 ACPs for hunting, bt that really is not its forte. Like I said, there is overlap, so a clear, definitive answer to your original question is not happening.

First question to answer is, "What is your target?"

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Remember, only believe half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you get from the internet. Even this post. Maybe especially this post, as I have given you no hard data, no shooting anecdotes, no quantitative physics. I leave it to you to Google "Terminal Ballistics". Have fun.

Do your own independent, confirming research when ANYONE gives you new facts on the web.

Also remember, even the idiotic stuff might have a kernel of truth buried in there somewhere.

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Old May 6, 2009, 02:50 AM   #4
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Both the 45 +p and the 10mm have great energy, if you like to believe in just energy alone. What I mean is if your round is advertised for 500 foot pounds of energy at 25 feet, yet only deposits 200 foot pounds in your target, the advertised energy does not do you any good.
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Old May 6, 2009, 03:15 AM   #5
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A .45 round that is more in line with what most hunters would be looking for is the .45 Super. Availability of ammo and finding pistols that will handle the .45 Super is the hard part. HK full size USPs chambered in .45ACP are rated to handle the .45 Super, but as with any pistol a steady diet of the hot round isn't advised. The 10mm would be an easier cartridge to find commercially over the .45 Super which is an advantage. I own an HK USP .45 Tactical and have often considered getting my hands on some Super to run through it. Better yet I could run it through my 16" barreled HK USC carbine. Now that might be a useful brush gun when loaded with .45 Super. Does anyone make a 10mm carbine?
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Old May 6, 2009, 10:22 PM   #6
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Thanks guys, its a little clearer now.

What about those two Hornady loads? If you compare the two together even if they may be apples vs. oranges and although it may be a lighter 10mm load, would they have similar "knock down"?
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Old May 6, 2009, 10:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Sheep
Since energy is proportional to the square of the velocity, and 10mm has a lot more velocity, the 10 has more energy.

Since Momentum is proportional to velocity, with the greater mass, the 11mm (better known as the 45 ACP) has more momentum.
Energy (kinetic) and momentum are both functions mass and velocity and in both cases velocity has the greater influence. Both of which, at face value, gives the advantage to the 10 mm.

But, I believe these numbers are only applicable in perfectly elastic and inelastic collisions. The body deforms in so many when shot that these numbers don't say much as far as "knock down'' power.

For what its worth, the 9 mm can have more energy than the .45 acp

Last edited by _W_; May 6, 2009 at 11:21 PM.
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Old May 6, 2009, 11:43 PM   #8
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Please explain

Quote:
Originally Posted by _W_
Energy (kinetic) and momentum are both functions mass and velocity and in both cases velocity has the greater influence. Both of which, at face value, gives the advantage to the 10 mm.
"in both cases velocity has the greater influence" Greater than what?

Momentum is proportional to velocity. Energy is proportional to the square of the velocity. Therefore velocity has greater influence on energy than on momentum.

Or did I misunderstand your sentence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by _W_
But, I believe these numbers are only applicable in perfectly elastic and inelastic collisions. The body deforms in so many when shot that these numbers don't say much as far as "knock down'' power.
I agree, totally. Energy absorption depends a lot on highly tne many highly variable conditions you hint at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _W_
For what its worth, the 9 mm can have more energy than the .45 acp
What loads in 9mm have more energy than the 45 ACP? (Limit your response to the 9x19; don't tell me about the 9x23 or 9x57 and I won't tell you about the 45 Super.) And if you bring in 9mm +p, you should compare it to 45 +p, thank you.

Lost Sheep.

Remember, only believe half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you get from the internet. Even this post.

Do your own independent, confirming research when ANYONE gives you new facts on the web.

Also remember, even the idiotic stuff might have a kernel of truth buried in there somewhere.

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Old May 7, 2009, 12:28 AM   #9
_W_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Sheep
Greater than what?

Momentum is proportional to velocity. Energy is proportional to the square of the velocity. Therefore velocity has greater influence on energy than on momentum.

Or did I misunderstand your sentence?
When you are comparing 45 acp to 10 mm, the mass (weight) difference is very little. So physically and mathematically, the velocity of the bullet plays a larger role in deciding the magnitude of the momentum and energy.

Momentum, Mo = m x v
Mo(10 mm) = 10 g x 1400 ft/s = 14000 g-ft/s
Mo(45 acp) = 13 g x 1000 ft/s = 13000 g-ft/s

Kinetic Energy, KE = (mv^2)/2
KE (10 mm) = (10 x 1400 x 1400)/2 = 9,800,000
KE (45 acp) = (13 x 1000 x 1000)/2 = 6,500,000

Those number would make more sense if I converted them to standard units but I'm too lazy to do that.


Quote:
What loads in 9mm have more energy than the 45 ACP? (Limit your response to the 9x19; don't tell me about the 9x23 or 9x57 and I won't tell you about the 45 Super.) And if you bring in 9mm +p, you should compare it to 45 +p, thank you.
I'm basing my statements on theoretical values. On average, the weight of a 9 mm is about 8 grams. A 45 acp is about 13 grams.

Based on average performance data...the velocity of 9 mm range typically range from 1100 ft/s to 1300 ft/s. For 45 acp the velocity typically range from 800 ft/s to 1000 ft/s.

If you take a modest value from both calibers, you can see how close the kinetic energy is. That's why I said that 9 mm can have more energy that 45 acp. I guess what I should have said is some 9 mm have more energy than some 45 acp.
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Old May 7, 2009, 07:05 AM   #10
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A layman's comparison: 45+Ps sling heavy bullets at 950 or so fps. 10mm sling slightly less heavy bullets of over 1500 fps (and beyond). 10mm = big bullet, very fast; 45+P = bigger bullet, slow.
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