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Old May 4, 2009, 08:44 PM   #1
MLeake
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To stir up old discontent... MA training

I know, I know, there are posters here who feel that any mention of martial arts training is pointless. After all, we have guns, right?

Just thought I'd point out that a narcotics detective buddy of mine was commenting the other day that he has had several dealers pull weapons on him at close range, but that he has not so far fired his own weapon. Without thinking about it, he's instinctively just jammed the guys up and taken their guns away from them.

Please note, I know this guy from the dojo - aikido and ju-jutsu. He's formidable.

Anyway, I mentioned his comments to another friend over the weekend. That friend and I decided to conduct some experiments, from arm's length.

First, he unloaded his SP101, then holstered it. Next, from an arm's length away, he tried to draw, point, and pull. My job was not to let him. We did this from standing, and we also tried it from a seated position, simulating side-by-side in the front seat of a car.

Long story short, over the course of a dozen attempts, he didn't pull the trigger on me once. He did end up with the weapon stuck under his chin nine or ten times. I took it from him every time.

We reversed roles. He didn't have the same luck with me. I "killed" him every time.

The difference? When he tried to draw, I knew to jam him up using all my body weight against his wrist and/or forearm, or to trap him and turn, rotating him around me. OTOH, when I drew, he'd try to overpower my arm using just his own arms (as most people without training will do), so I just stepped back or pivoted out of his grip, using all of my mass against his arm/arms, then "shot" him.

I did the same thing to an Army drill sergeant/weapons instructor last August; we were also playing around with trying to take the M9 out of battery so the attacker couldn't fire. It works well enough, until the attacker fends with the offhand and steps back. Just try to hold the slide out of battery against a retreating, pivoting shooter....

MA training doesn't have to be about knowing how to punch, kick, or grapple somebody into submission. However, knowing how to fend an attacker off could be critical to being able to draw one's own weapon. Knowing how not to get jammed up is very useful. So is knowing how to jam the other guy.

Bear in mind that most of us aren't wearing competition rigs when we CCW; even if we practice clearing the cover garment and then speed-rocking, it will take time. Since it's a mantra in this forum that most attackers will be at close proximity, the conservative assumption is that the BG will be on top of you by the time the weapon clears.

Learn how to move. Learn how to break contact. Learn how to slow him down while you draw.

Later on, you might get fancy and also learn how to disarm, but first you should learn how to just move.
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Old May 4, 2009, 10:07 PM   #2
GojuBrian
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I'm with it!! I'm in the white.

I know exactly what you are saying, but you can't tell people, you have to show them. It's easy to think you know what to do, but if you don't train it...










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Old May 4, 2009, 10:16 PM   #3
5whiskey
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I'm all about martial arts, I don't see why anyone would be against it...

My only concern is that MA be used properly... to buy time to draw a firearm in cases where your life feels threatened. If your life is threatened, then martial arts is a delay tactic until you can bring out the big guns. If your life isn't threatened, then you shouldn't be using MA or drawing a firearm.

Basically, don't use MA as a means to try and incapacitate attacker. That's a good way to get killed. You should do no form of fighting unless it's sanctioned competition, in a dojo or practice field, or if your life is truly in danger. If it's the later option, I'm not going to fight with just feet, fists, armbars, and takedowns unless they decide to run before I've fully drawn my firearm.

To sum it up... yes MA is a good thing. I think everyone should take MA... it may keep you from getting stabbed in the vitals while you are drawing your firearm for SD.
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Old May 4, 2009, 10:32 PM   #4
guntotin_fool
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It may have a point for people in law enforcement. but I had a lot of buddies who were into it big time. winning matches, traveling all the time, talking this dojo and that sensei. then cagematches started to show up, and these guys kept showing up for work on about thursday looking like someone had used their head for batting practice. Its like comparing chess to the battle field, there may be some useful concepts, but ones a game, ones real. MA is not real.
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Old May 4, 2009, 10:49 PM   #5
5whiskey
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Quote:
MA is not real.
That's exactly why thousands of police departments, the Marine Corps, Navy Seals, and many other agencies in the world spend millions of dollars to develope MA programs

Now if you're talking about kids Karate classes... well that's geared more toward developing athleticism and self respect, but with SD aspects mixed in. I wouldn't call it a "real world" martial art though. Brazillion Ju-jitso, among others, are very useful "real world" martial arts.
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Old May 4, 2009, 11:53 PM   #6
Kyo
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MA is not real
I wanna see you get on the training mat with some "not real" MA professionals. I am not talking about Tae Kwon Do in a fluffy class. I am talking about Aikido/Jujitsu trained folks.
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Old May 5, 2009, 02:27 AM   #7
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It may have a point for people in law enforcement. but I had a lot of buddies who were into it big time. winning matches, traveling all the time, talking this dojo and that sensei. then cagematches started to show up, and these guys kept showing up for work on about thursday looking like someone had used their head for batting practice. Its like comparing chess to the battle field, there may be some useful concepts, but ones a game, ones real. MA is not real.
HA HA HA!!!! Spoken like a true ignoramous!!!

FYI,

Our dojo trains for self defense, not for art, not for competitions. One of the guys is FBI, the other a SWAT member for local PD.
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Old May 5, 2009, 03:12 AM   #8
Brainflex
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Isn't SD training with a firearm a martial art? To me, it is just an extension of "traditional" martial arts.
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Old May 5, 2009, 04:09 AM   #9
GojuBrian
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Yes, but a firearm without hand to hand skills at close range the firearm can/will be used against you.

People seem to think a firearm is an alternative to self defense training, it's not at all.

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Old May 5, 2009, 09:05 AM   #10
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There is a difference between the skill set that you can obtain by training specifically for SD situations and the art of the sake of the art. I teach the art and have no misconceptions that it is real world situational training, and I am content with that.

Any hand to hand SD training is better than none, I strongly suggest that basic hand to hand SD be a part of everyone's total SD preparedness training.
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Old May 5, 2009, 09:16 AM   #11
Dragon55
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FWIW

A detective friend of mine made me feel like a fool when he demonstrated he could take the top part of my gun off with one swipe.... floored me! (Taurus PT100 ..Beretta Clone)

Good MA training in regards to 'you have the gun' involves creating distance between you and the BG. From 2 feet in you're actually better off with a good dagger.

One more thing BJJ is a sport. It can be a form of self defense but only if there is just 1 BG.
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Old May 5, 2009, 09:41 AM   #12
JackL
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Quote:
I wanna see you get on the training mat with some "not real" MA professionals. I am not talking about Tae Kwon Do in a fluffy class. I am talking about Aikido/Jujitsu trained folks.
From what I've seen, most BJJ folks don't consider Aikido any more "real" than TKD.

On the other hand, if I could resume training in any of the MAs I've taken, I'd go back to Aikido in a shrew's heartbeat.

Then again, I'm far from convinced that BJJ/UFC/whatever they're calling it this week is any more applicable than Aikido for anyone other than a full-time cage fighter.
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Old May 5, 2009, 09:41 AM   #13
5whiskey
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One more thing BJJ is a sport. It can be a form of self defense but only if there is just 1 BG.
Yeah, this is true. I think most professional organizations that incorporate MA take a blend of akito and ju-jitsu, with some other stuff mixed in. I know the Marine Corps MA program collects from several different styles.
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Old May 5, 2009, 09:42 AM   #14
Housezealot
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A detective friend of mine made me feel like a fool when he demonstrated he could take the top part of my gun off with one swipe
your friend wouldn't happen to be jet li would he?
and you wouldn't happen to be mel gibson would you?
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Old May 5, 2009, 09:49 AM   #15
Dragon55
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Obviously No on both counts. Just made me feel goofy. He sez gangstas practice this.
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Old May 5, 2009, 09:50 AM   #16
MLeake
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taking apart an M9 or similar

I've done this trick, too; I wouldn't say I could do it reliably, maybe 25%-30% of the time. I certainly wouldn't want to count on it working. However, you don't have to be Jet Li.

But pushing the slide slightly out of battery disables the M9 and its clones from firing (trigger disengages), which may buy you a second or two to draw and fire.

There are ways to keep somebody from doing this to your weapon. They are worth learning, and not all that hard to learn.
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Old May 12, 2009, 12:47 AM   #17
guntotin_fool
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I may be an ignoramus in your mind, but i have seen what I have seen, and I have yet to see a MA fighter win in a real fight. I bounced for several years, I have seen a couple of thousand real fights, and I stand by my post.


For cops and other law enforcement who are bound by ROE's that do not allow for massive escalation of force without clear reasons, MA does have some points in getting a subdued or resistant person into cuffs. I can see why some would take those classes as an adjunct to real fighting. in a real drop the gloves and spit out the teeth fight, it does not work.
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Old May 12, 2009, 01:18 AM   #18
Blue Steel
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Quote:
But pushing the slide slightly out of battery disables the M9 and its clones from firing (trigger disengages), which may buy you a second or two to draw and fire.
If you're close enough to try this technique you'll probably have better luck with a disarm technique and just take the turds gun away from him.

Quote:
I bounced for several years, I have seen a couple of thousand real fights, and I stand by my post.
You can stand by your post, but my experience tells me that someone with realistic martial arts combat training with an emphasis on striking & grappling will not be dominated by some drunken brawler.


Last edited by Blue Steel; May 12, 2009 at 01:32 AM.
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Old May 12, 2009, 01:31 AM   #19
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Check Out Target Focus Training

I haven't experienced this guy's training personally yet, but I have learned a LOT from his free e-letters and videos that he sends out if you are interested. The free stuff is mostly about the psychology of violence, and the use of violence as a tool when you have no other--and it's being used against you!! He's coming to Hawai'i in July, and I'm hoping to take his course then--will post (if I make it through!).

targetfocustraining.com

Interested to know if anyone on-forum has experienced his stuff--he does teach gun defense, but not per se--it's just another form of fighting to him.

Doc
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Old May 12, 2009, 04:34 AM   #20
JustDreadful
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I may be an ignoramus in your mind, but i have seen what I have seen, and I have yet to see a MA fighter win in a real fight. I bounced for several years, I have seen a couple of thousand real fights, and I stand by my post.
The thing is, blanket statements like "MA is not real" ARE ignorant, and indicative of intellectual sloth. Some are good, some aren't. Benchrest target shooting isn't very good preparation for gunfighting, but you can't take that and then say "Shooting practice isn't real." Come to Vegas, look up Frank Mir or Randy Couture, demonstrate to them that their training isn't worthwhile. (Mir was a bouncer for a long time, too, at a well-known local "gentlemen's club". May still be.)

Quote:
my experience tells me that someone with realistic martial arts combat training with an emphasis on striking & grappling will not be dominated by some drunken brawler.
And that goes too far the other way. There are dirtbags who fight, for real, every weekend. They like it. Some of them are very dangerous.
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Old May 12, 2009, 10:59 AM   #21
GojuBrian
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I may be an ignoramus in your mind, but i have seen what I have seen, and I have yet to see a MA fighter win in a real fight. I bounced for several years, I have seen a couple of thousand real fights, and I stand by my post.
And you know these "ma fighters" personally? You've seen them train? I'll bet you've seen people talking trash that said they were trained because they got their green belt when they were 14.

A real martial artist that utilizes resistance training can whoop any bar brawler any day. A real martial artist trains for several hours a week, is in good physical condition, and this does no good because you say so? What kind of training to you have?

Quote:
For cops and other law enforcement who are bound by ROE's that do not allow for massive escalation of force without clear reasons, MA does have some points in getting a subdued or resistant person into cuffs. I can see why some would take those classes as an adjunct to real fighting. in a real drop the gloves and spit out the teeth fight, it does not work.
My instructor (local PD SWAT member) is a 4th degree blackbelt, his brother who trains with us is an FBI agent. They both have used our training with great success on th3 d34dly st4eets!!
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Old May 12, 2009, 02:49 PM   #22
markj
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Quote:
A real martial artist that utilizes resistance training can whoop any bar brawler any day.
MA is good trasining, however my first Judo instructor told us fiorst day that holding a belt will not make you invincible and a good street fighter will kick our rear ends every day so be careful and always use it in a defensive style.

Now on the other hand I have personally knocked out several black belts in my work as a bouncer, one hit and out went the lights. Not everyone that does MA is a bruce lee, otherwise we would have no need for competition now would we?

How do you CCW while wearing a Gi?

Them 2 wood things on a chain hurt the back of the head too...
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Old May 12, 2009, 07:07 PM   #23
GojuBrian
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MA is good trasining, however my first Judo instructor told us fiorst day that holding a belt will not make you invincible and a good street fighter will kick our rear ends every day so be careful and always use it in a defensive style.
Judo is a sport which can be used as self defense. Not adequate enough though. Judo implements no strikes where is where it starts.

Quote:
Now on the other hand I have personally knocked out several black belts in my work as a bouncer, one hit and out went the lights. Not everyone that does MA is a bruce lee, otherwise we would have no need for competition now would we?
You know they were blackbelts? I can get a blackbelt off ebay,doesn't make me a blackbelt now does it? I can get a blackbelt from my local tkd in 18months with no prior training. Doesn't make me a blackbelt does it?

You knew these people were blackbelts and you watched how they train? Just a bunch of talk.
Doesn't sound like you were a very good bouncer either. A bouncers job is not to"knock people out." lol...

Quote:
How do you CCW while wearing a Gi?
Easier than summer clothes my friend.

Quote:
Them 2 wood things on a chain hurt the back of the head too...
I have no use for them.


It's all in the training, the training has to be good. Going twice a week for one hour and working on your kata does not equal good ma training in my book.
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Old May 12, 2009, 08:00 PM   #24
Hirlau
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No response from the OP in over a week; for his post

Wake Up, OP !

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Old May 13, 2009, 01:22 AM   #25
Kyo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackL
From what I've seen, most BJJ folks don't consider Aikido any more "real" than TKD.

On the other hand, if I could resume training in any of the MAs I've taken, I'd go back to Aikido in a shrew's heartbeat.

Then again, I'm far from convinced that BJJ/UFC/whatever they're calling it this week is any more applicable than Aikido for anyone other than a full-time cage fighter.
Well, most folks are ignorant about it. In a close range situation, I don't want training to hit the guy. I want the training that will let me disarm him, pin him, and make him cry like a little girl with one hand. The fact that Aikido has no attacks is testament to how focused it is on disabling someone instead of hitting/kicking someone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN7yn0XOSMQ this is a half way example. It is another form where they do include attacking. but in close quarters I don't think you can get better then this, you are moving, and forcing them into movement that they don't know.

Last edited by Kyo; May 13, 2009 at 04:06 AM.
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