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Old May 4, 2009, 05:59 PM   #1
5whiskey
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Never show your cards and don't bluff...

The title of my thread is just that. I'll paint the picture below and I would like some debate on my question...

I recently facilitated in the identification and prosecution of a group that commited a crime. They also got a DUI on top of the crime. Needless to say, I'm not their favorite person and they've pretty clearly expressed that. They don't know my full name or where I live, but they know a place that I frequent. That's pretty much the story. I don't know how far these people will take it, but I'm going to be prepared.

With that I want to ask for some opinions. I've always been very interested in the shooting and hand-to-hand SD arts. Part of it came from choice of occupation. I used to make it no secret to even casual acquantences about who I am and what I'm capable of (not saying I'm bad-ass or anything... you get the point).

These days, I'm starting to think that it's smart to say as little as possible about what I have, what I carry, what I can do, how my house is protected, etc. Even simple little things lik...

I don't announce that I am or when I am going to the "range". I live on acreage, but still have neighbors. My "range" used to be in the back yard (yes, it's safe). Now I'm not sure I'm going to do that anymore. I can drive about 20 miles and get all the range time I want for free, and it'll be a little more anonymous.

I don't like security system signs. I would rather have a system, with an Un-Godly number of exterior sirens, and let someone find out AFTER they kick the door in that I have an alarm. I know I may would have to repair the door, but I would rather do that than for someone to develope a plan to break in.

I also have exterior motion detectors rigged to a buzzer. They are set in place every night after dark, and taken up every morning before light. I change the location frequently, and they're often camoflauged.

I used to OC often, but after re-evaluating the matter I don't anyone to even know I have a firearm if I can get away with it. No more OC for me. I appreciate the people who do, as it makes a statement, but I'm not going to participate.

What are your feelings on this? I would like some feedback. Basically my thought is "they don't know I have a firearm until about .5 seconds before I use it".
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Old May 4, 2009, 07:09 PM   #2
Jofaba
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I think we can all agree that nothing short of a fully automatic chipmunk launching machine gun is not only the best, but perhaps your only real option here.

edit: please take this post at face value. Just having fun here man.
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Old May 4, 2009, 07:58 PM   #3
Brian Pfleuger
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but they know a place that I frequent.
Part of my advice would be to not frequent that place, if possible, especially if you believe there is a real threat. For instance, if it's a restaurant, stop going there. It would have to be some darn fine cuisine to risk life and limb over. Obviously you may not be able to avoid the place in some cases. If so, make sure you are aware of your surroundings and try to go there at unexpected times, if possible, and by taking varied routes.


So far a "never show your cards". I agree completely. My immediate family and a couple VERY select friends know that I carry a gun. Nobody else needs to know anything. I consider any hand-to-hand abilities, any special training, home defense plans, capabilities and alarm systems to be equally hushed.
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Old May 4, 2009, 08:03 PM   #4
5whiskey
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I can't avoid the place, but they've kept their distance thus far. If anything they do the ride-by stare down, in which case a smile and wave. They're mostly being passive aggressive. LEOs are aware of the situation and stop in occasionally. I think we're covered and I'm being paranoid... but hey alot of people thought the pastor of the Church in CO was paranoid for hiring armed security. Something to think about.

Last edited by 5whiskey; May 4, 2009 at 08:09 PM.
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Old May 4, 2009, 08:05 PM   #5
Brian Pfleuger
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That place is -'s house. They know my car and they know where - lives.
Hm, that does make it tricky.... you made need to spend the night to make sure - is safe....


Seriously though, I'd make sure that an alarm system is installed in addition to "hardware". I prefer as many layers as possible before we get to bullets.

The presence of LE having a chat with you or - in the front yard every so often is definitely a nice perk. I think that helps alot. I encourage our local LE to use my parking lot anytime they have paperwork to do or anytime they need to stop off. I also give them a free lunch to encourage their presence.
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Last edited by JohnKSa; May 5, 2009 at 01:17 AM. Reason: Per OP's request.
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Old May 4, 2009, 08:30 PM   #6
curt.45
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mostly good ideas, move - in with you for safety. or send - here and I'll.........well thats not gonna happen is it?



good luck.

if they get you?

be sure to let us know.

Last edited by JohnKSa; May 5, 2009 at 01:18 AM. Reason: Per OP's request
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Old May 4, 2009, 10:46 PM   #7
Hunley
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IMHO, keep it hush-hush. The less people know, the safer you are.

Although OCing can have a deterring effect, it might lead to the people you are worried about arming themselves against you. Like you, I admire those who OC, and do it on occasions I deem necessary. BUT, as I found out in Atlanta last year, pulling a big concealed handgun on someone can make them rethink their plans.
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Old May 4, 2009, 10:55 PM   #8
5whiskey
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Although OCing can have a deterring effect, it might lead to the people you are worried about arming themselves against you.
That's what I'm getting at. I can't completely pull off the "harmless" look... I'm 6'4" and weigh 260. I'm not fat either (though admittedly I could lose 25 lbs and look good). I'm more than likely already considered a threat on the street anyway. I don't really like that, but that's the hand that God dealt me. I'm pretty sure these folks are armed, but I don't think they would use it. If they do surprise would be one of the better things going for me. They ARE amatuers, but I would rather not advertise that fact to them until and unless they force me to.

The good news is I think the situation is beginning to wind down.
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Old May 4, 2009, 11:50 PM   #9
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Dude, if someone was giving me the evil eye because I was watching out for the neighborhood, I would care. You have your carry, you have your brains, and you have your local LEO's who obviously understand. As far as the blah blah blah thing and them coming over, *** is that? Must be a long story. If you have to get blah blah blah to blah blah blah instead? Idk.

Last edited by Kyo; May 5, 2009 at 12:02 AM.
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Old May 4, 2009, 11:56 PM   #10
5whiskey
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Oh it escalated into more than evil eye, there was an implication or two. That's why there's a group instead of one or two now. It is screwed up that they want to come by

Last edited by 5whiskey; May 5, 2009 at 08:02 AM. Reason: Per user's request.
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Old May 5, 2009, 01:12 AM   #11
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I don't like security system signs. I would rather have a system, with an Un-Godly number of exterior sirens, and let someone find out AFTER they kick the door in that I have an alarm.

Basically my thought is "they don't know I have a firearm until about .5 seconds before I use it".
This scares the hell out of me! Most of us here (I hope) keep firearms in our homes praying (or hoping if praying isn't your thing) that we will never have to use them. You, on the other hand, sound like the kind of person that can't wait to use them.

Scott
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Old May 5, 2009, 01:25 AM   #12
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You, on the other hand, sound like the kind of person that can't wait to use them.
The point isn't that there's a desire to use a firearm, it's that there's a desire to have a CHANCE to defend one's self.

If you are openly armed, it may deter the attackers or it may encourage them to take immediate violent action to neutralize your ability to respond.

On the other hand, if you appear to be unarmed, there's a chance that the attackers won't feel that they have to take immediate violent action to neutralize your ability to respond because they may not have a reason to believe that you're a threat to them.

Either way you're playing the odds. In the first case (openly armed) you're betting that openly carrying will deter them. If you bet wrong then you've probably created a situation where they feel they must make sure you don't have any chance to respond.

In the second case you're betting that they will give you a chance to respond because you don't appear to be dangerous. They could be cold-blooded enough to take very violent action up front even if you don't look dangerous.
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Old May 5, 2009, 02:23 AM   #13
Jim March
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I agree to a point.

Once you DO draw, there should be a ton of threat involved...you're less likely to have to shoot. I suspect there's a real difference in the odds you'll have to shoot between pulling, say, a small .32 or .380 and something the size of an N-Frame S&W.

Your demeanor makes possibly an even bigger difference. If you look scared even when hauling out a real hogleg, that's a problem (for you). On the other hand, looking either absolutely stone-cold determined to kill is I think the single scariest, followed (closely!) by looking seriously ****** off or outright crazy.

A clean draw and a competent stance matter too.

Finally (and most controversially!), if you DO have to fire into the first of an attacking group, doing "gruesome damage" may cause the rest to re-think their activity. Very hot 357Magnums (125gr up over 1,500fps fr'instance) have been linked to phrases like "a spray of lung tissue" or similar (ewww). The major muzzle blast of a full-house 357 is going to create psychological effects too.

Again: this all takes place once there's a lethal threat. At that point big power early can make the difference, esp. against a mob.
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Old May 5, 2009, 04:19 AM   #14
GojuBrian
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Advertisement CAN invite trouble. I wouldn't go bragging because people will test you.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you are a little too-affeared of things that maybe you shouldn't be. I mean, your house sounds like a booby trap!!

I wear my schools martial arts t-shirts and it invites conversation sometimes, sometimes challenges or bravado. It does give me the chance to practice my de-escalation skills on ocassion.

"What's...GO..Jo crotty?"

huh? Oh, I bought this at a garage sale.

"Do you do that krotty stuff?"

I try to, but I found I'm more of a danger to myself than anyone else?

"Think you can whoop my a$$?"

Can I tie you up first?

"Whut belt are ya?"

I wear a crimson rainbow.

""Hey, can I come watch?"

Absolutely!
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Old May 5, 2009, 05:07 AM   #15
scottaschultz
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The point isn't that there's a desire to use a firearm, it's that there's a desire to have a CHANCE to defend one's self.
Maybe, but it doesn't sound like that is what's going on in this case.

He doesn't want an alarm or anything to deter those guys from approaching and entering his house, he wants something that will simply announce their presence. It almost seems like he is wants them to come in. Of course if he lives in a jurisdiction with castle laws, then he can pretty much do anything he wants in terms of defending himself once they are inside.

Personally, I think that most people would want to take reasonable measures to stop unwanted visitors from entering the house in the first place. I also think that most people intend on using their weapon as a last resort once all of the other security measures have been breeched.

Hell, he might as well just leave the front door open and invite them in!

Scott
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Old May 5, 2009, 05:40 AM   #16
JohnKSa
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Maybe, but it doesn't sound like that is what's going on in this case.
I think you're reading into it what you want it to say.

This quote makes it pretty clear that the point is to attempt to gain some advantage in the event of an attack.
Quote:
I'm pretty sure these folks are armed, but I don't think they would use it. If they do surprise would be one of the better things going for me. They ARE amatuers, but I would rather not advertise that fact to them until and unless they force me to.
Quote:
He doesn't want an alarm or anything to deter those guys from approaching and entering his house, ...
Where are you reading that? He says he doesn't want a security system SIGN that might give them information to make a plan to break in but he clearly says he wants lots of sirens to go off if they do attempt to break in.
Quote:
Hell, he might as well just leave the front door open and invite them in!
Seriously, I think if you re-read exactly what the OP posted that will clear things up.
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Old May 5, 2009, 07:53 AM   #17
5whiskey
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Thanks for the hookup John...

As for the inference that I'm just waiting to shoot someone, that's a joke and I take serious offense to it. Let's just say I have a slight idea of what it's like, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone here.

Shulz, signs in the yard, OC, bragging about any form of self defense training... that stuff can be a deterrent. It probably will make the average petty thief and low-level druggie think twice. On the other hand, advertising that stuff to someone who has already expressed interest and intent on vengence only let's them know what ways you've prepared for them. If they know what you have, they can come up with a plan to circumvent. I assure you I want to sit in my little corner of the world and be left the heck alone. I have no desire to have any kind of confrontation or conflict, and I definetely don't want to hurt anyone.

Quote:
they don't know I have a firearm until about .5 seconds before I use it
Shulz, I can see where you would take that the wrong way. I should've worded that a little better. What I'm saying is I wouldn't draw unless it is clear that an attack I can't escape from is imminent. I would probably give said BG a chance to bug out, but the point was I'm not going to brandish or draw until the last possible second.

As for the signs... I've been in the security alarm industry before. Many houses are not adequately protected by the "free promotion" systems pushed on them by salesmen. Security systems CAN be a very powerful tool, but it can also be just a mild annoyance to anyone with knowledge of how they work unless the homeowner is REALLY familiar with how to make that system work best for them. With that being said, some of those systems have as much as 30 second entry delays. That gives anyone determined to get in 30 seconds to find the main control panel (obviously not at my house, but there is still an entry delay and someone with the know-how could keep the siren blaring down to a minimum of 10 or 15 seconds). If he can find it, then it's game over for security system. Not to mention signs invite them to cut the phone line before they break in, etc. Now take same person, they have no knowledge that you have security system. They kick the door in, keypad goes off, then 5 seconds later siren goes off. They weren't counting on that, and they get an "Oh, ****" moment, hopefully causing them to run off. Like I said, signs may be good to deter the amatuers... but it tells the pros to be prepared. That's a long way from leaving the door open and inviting them in.

Goju, you're probably right man. I may be taking it seriously, but mind you there's already been a couple of incidents and the number of the group has increased. I thought after the first one they would get the hint, but they haven't. They've not come onto any property since then, but they've still been passive-aggressive and I know they are into drugs. All it would take is an irrational night of drinking and drug use, plus 3 or 4 delinquent punks sitting around having a D*** measuring contest and thinking about that "sumb****" they know that busted them, for them to decide to seek vengence for real. I pray that it doesn't come to that, and in all likelihood it won't, but if it does I'll be prepared.
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Old May 5, 2009, 08:15 AM   #18
GojuBrian
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Goju, you're probably right man. I may be taking it seriously, but mind you there's already been a couple of incidents and the number of the group has increased. I thought after the first one they would get the hint, but they haven't. They've not come onto any property since then, but they've still been passive-aggressive and I know they are into drugs. All it would take is an irrational night of drinking and drug use, plus 3 or 4 delinquent punks sitting around having a D*** measuring contest and thinking about that "sumb****" they know that busted them, for them to decide to seek vengence for real. I pray that it doesn't come to that, and in all likelihood it won't, but if it does I'll be prepared.
I pray that it doesn't ither. You are the one that has to make the decisions on how to keep ou and yours safe from these cretens, so take everyone's comments with a grain of salt.

Be safe, God bless.
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Old May 5, 2009, 08:25 AM   #19
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I was taught by Uncle Sam and NY State to never reveal that you have a weapon in a confrontational situation.

If it esclates to the point a firearm is required you will draw and fire. Never draw and brandish. The act of drawing is the first and last step to firing. No delay between those steps.

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Old May 5, 2009, 08:34 AM   #20
5whiskey
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Airforce, that's pretty much where I'm coming from. I don't really care to draw unless it's growing clear that I'll be firing.
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Old May 5, 2009, 08:54 AM   #21
scottaschultz
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Don't get me wrong, I agree 110% that you want the element of surprise on your side and not theirs. OK, maybe I did read too much into the original post, but it just seemed that that was more emphasis being placed on what happens after the guys break in and not so much on keeping them out in the first place.

As far as not knowing you have a firearm until that critical moment, I believe there are basically 2 things that an intruder does not want to hear:
1) Dogs barking - we have 5
2) A shotgun being pumped - I want the intruder to be damed well aware that I am armed!

Scott
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Old May 5, 2009, 09:04 AM   #22
Enoy21
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While I agree with Carry Conceal gun for various reasons on your person....


I see no reason to hide the alarm stickers , let them know you are training.

If they are determined enough and intelligent enough to form a plan ( meaning staking your house , watching your patterns , learning more about you ) to get around the alarm , your training , knowing you are armed and dangerous ... then they are going to find a way to do it. And/or may get lucky even if you have that extra surprise for them.

On the other hand ... Letting them know in advance how well prepared you are , may deter them from even TRYING to do it.

I guess it all depends on just how smart/dedicated and Mission impossible determined these guys are.
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Old May 5, 2009, 09:05 AM   #23
5whiskey
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I understand Scott, I could've worded things different. I'm not really focused on a break in per say, just any confrontation be it at home, in the street, at a store, or wherever else it may occur. The security system sign debate is really just a reference to the attitude to have. That attitude is not to have a desire to defend myself, it's just to take away any knowledge someone desiring to hurt me or mine may have about how well prepared I am for them. I want to appear to be as clueless of a shmuck as I can pull off. Think about it, if you were the general of an army and had orders to defend x territory would you really want to advertise the position and capabilities of every unit under your command? You're not on the offense. You don't seek to destroy. You are charged only with defense. The less any invading army knows about your capabilities, the better.
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Old May 5, 2009, 09:16 AM   #24
Enoy21
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As for the signs... I've been in the security alarm industry before. Many houses are not adequately protected by the "free promotion" systems pushed on them by salesmen. Security systems CAN be a very powerful tool, but it can also be just a mild annoyance to anyone with knowledge of how they work unless the homeowner is REALLY familiar with how to make that system work best for them. With that being said, some of those systems have as much as 30 second entry delays. That gives anyone determined to get in 30 seconds to find the main control panel (obviously not at my house, but there is still an entry delay and someone with the know-how could keep the siren blaring down to a minimum of 10 or 15 seconds). If he can find it, then it's game over for security system. Not to mention signs invite them to cut the phone line before they break in, etc. Now take same person, they have no knowledge that you have security system. They kick the door in, keypad goes off, then 5 seconds later siren goes off. They weren't counting on that, and they get an "Oh, ****" moment, hopefully causing them to run off. Like I said, signs may be good to deter the amatuers... but it tells the pros to be prepared. That's a long way from leaving the door open and inviting them in.


Again , if these guys are so determined and dedicated .... This will work for you ONCE.


Once they have attempted to break in , get spooked by the surprise and run off ... they will be back and now the element of surprise is gone. You are right back to the point of " they know I have an alarm now, what it sounds like , how it reacts etc....


Unless you have some security camera's that can tape them doing it , then to the police it's just "attempted burglary" in which case it never happened and they can't catch the guys who did it ... leaving them out there for a second chance.



Also keep in mind your response to the freebee alarm systems ... If they make plans to account for the basic setups or false front stickers ... then they are going to be surprised anyway ... At the same time it will keep OTHER ameuters at bay.
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Old May 5, 2009, 09:20 AM   #25
5whiskey
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but it just seemed that that was more emphasis being placed on what happens after the guys break in and not so much on keeping them out in the first place.
That's another assumption and you don't really know my reason for having things. The security system is primarily for when I'm NOT at home. Don't get me wrong, it's armed when I am at home. I'm not home much, and I don't really like the idea of anyone getting hold of my guns. I don't have the money for a full out gun safe. I have a lock box bolted down but it could be gotten into with enough time.

Thus enters the security system. The purpose of that is to severely limit the amount of time that anyone can have in the house. If you know enough about how alarms work, you will realize that they are FAR from full-proof... even a nicer system. The greatest tactical advantage to an alarm is to keep perps from knowing you have it. Trust me, I've installed them. The MCP is usually in a closet in a central location. Given that knowledge, with a 15 second delay on a keypad, anyone who knows an alarm is there can effectively circumvent it pretty easily. First they cut phone/cable lines. Then just kick in the door and you have on average 15 seconds to find the control panel and rip it off the wall before a siren goes off. Even if the siren is activated for 5 or 10 seconds, many neighbors would assume it's a false alarm. I've seen this happen on several occasions.

Now, if they don't know it's there they just kick in the door. All of a sudden this thing on the wall is beeping at them. There's that 2 or 3 seconds of "oh crap", and then they have to come up with a plan to circumvent the system AFTER IT'S ALREADY BEEN ACTIVATED. Before they get very far there's a siren going off. "Oh crap, what to do"... There's a much greater chance of them just running away. This is coming from someone with professional experience with security systems. Signs are good deterance against crack rock burglers. If someone has a personal vendetta, there's a good chance they'll enact that vendetta with or without the sign. The sign just gives them an opportunity to come at you with a plan.
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