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Old May 5, 2009, 09:13 PM   #51
Nnobby45
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Quote:
5 Things To Do After A Shooting:

-Point out the perpetrator to the police
-Tell the police you will "sign the complaint"
-Point out the evidence to the police
-Point out the witnesses to the police
-Will give full cooperation in 24 hours after speaking with an attorney
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Lots of us have plenty of time and money invested in training and equipment, guns and ammo. How many of us have memorized the simple phrases, above, so we can rightly establish ourselves as the victim?
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Old May 5, 2009, 09:30 PM   #52
Marty Hayes
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A couple points here folks. First, because each event will be different, I would not rehearse what to say, as much as understand what you need to accomplish, then devote your spoken work to accomplishing that goal.

Second, understand that if you clam up and don't say anything, (as many well meaning people advise) you are limiting law enforcement's ability to investigate the crime which was perpetrated against you, the crime which gave you the statutory right to use deadly force to begin with!!!
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Old May 9, 2009, 09:07 PM   #53
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"It amazes me the number of folks who see an attorney as a saving grace. Attorneys care about being paid--nothing more, nothing less."


It amazes me that people with such a low opinion of attorneys will, nevertheless, expect their attorney to create miracles after they have, in a moment of panic or remorse, inadvertently provided the police and prosecutor with the evidence needed to convict them of a serious crime.

I have been an attorney for nearly 20 years. I practice, among other things, in the arena of criminal law. If I ever had the misfortune of having to shoot someone in my defense or the defense of a loved one, you can be sure that after my short 911 call, my next call would be to another attorney. Counsel is needed to calm nerves and provide insight. Someone has died at your hands and the police are going to want answers.

Only those who have actually taken a human life with their gun can say, with any type of certainty, how they will react. It is foolish to speculate as to how we, who have not done it, will react. It is because the negative ramifications of foolish, or poorly thought out, reactions to unfortunate circumstances can meet with such severe consequences that your attorney's number should be on your speed dialer. I speak specifically of the pressure to give a sworn statement, or other type of statement, as to what happened in response to police questions while you are still in shock -- and probably don't even realize it.

As an attorney I would also point out that, if you have chosen an attorney, take the time to get to know him or her outside the context of "the office." His or her kids may play in sports, or go to school, with yours. You may go to the same church as he or she does. In other words, be more to him or her than just "a client" when that emergency call comes in. Not an easy task, yea, I know, but still, something certainly worth trying. Who knows, he or she might just be intrigued by an offer to go shooting with you sometime.

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Old May 10, 2009, 07:02 AM   #54
Enoy21
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I personally think it's rather sad , that we as people who feel the need to defend our homes , must prepare and plan for a defense. It's a sad state of the court systems.
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Old May 10, 2009, 11:25 AM   #55
m&p45acp10+1
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Check in to wether or not your state has the castle act

In Texas the "castle act" is if you are found justified in use of deadly force you are not liable in a civil court. Basicly you go before a grand jury and they look at the facts of what ocoured and then decide if actions where justified. If justified no further criminal or civil charges will follow.
Check the laws of you state.
Also if you are being sued it means you are still alive. So it is not that bad all things being considered.
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Old May 10, 2009, 01:43 PM   #56
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Quote:
It amazes me the number of folks who see an attorney as a saving grace. Attorneys care about being paid--nothing more, nothing less.
Many attorneys actually care very deeply about their clients and "doing the right thing". Many work pro bono.
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Old May 10, 2009, 02:45 PM   #57
txbirddog
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Quote:
Call your Attorney FIRST!
I would call 911 first. If at all possible I want to be the one to tell the operator exactly who I am and what I am wearing so the LEO responding doesn't fear me as the perp.

I don't have an attorney yet, but am looking. I was told by my CCW instructor (retired LEO) to use an attorney that was used to representing people in court and within the county of the shooting. Your estate or corp attorney may not be the best in this instance. Criminal defense attorneys would be the best speciality to look at.

Maybe dadofsix could shed more light on this.
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Old May 10, 2009, 04:27 PM   #58
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I'd be glad to share what I know, and help folks in finding an attorney qualified to be the one to receive the "emergency call." Just PM me.

A caveat though, I am only licensed to practice in two states. That means that I will respectfully have to decline to give any meaningful "legal advice" to those living in other jurisdictions.

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Old May 11, 2009, 02:33 PM   #59
Dallas Jack
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OK, I've read what others would do. This is my idea of what one should do.

Make sure it is safe and there is no other threat. At once call 911 and ask for the police and EMTs. It's very important when this call is made. Try to remain as calm as you can. On the phone stick to the bare facts. Do not say you shot anyone. You fired a shot, do not embellish. Do not volunteer any information. Just the barest of facts.

Do not take any pictures or do anything that appears you are preparing a defense. If it was a good shoot the scene will be your witness. The police have no reason to issue blame, they just collect the evidence. Do not give them anything that the DA's office can twist and use against you.

Appearances mean everything to a jury. Don't give anyone any reason to poke around in your personal life or background.

Smewhat OT:
And of course the most important thing. Do not take the shot unless you are indeed in fear for the safety of your family or yourself. Shooting is always the last defense.
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Old May 13, 2009, 03:56 AM   #60
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Man, it sounds like some of your people are Phil Spector trying to figure out how to get away with shooting your girlfriend. If you are legally armed and have a legitimate reason to defend yourself with deadly force then you should not be so paranoid. That does not mean you should not prepare for the aftermath and protect yourself.

Here are my ideas on this subject:

Avoid bravado. Taking a human life is a sobering event, and you most likely won't feel like backslapping, but if you do suppress the urge. Bragging about how you "smoked" someone isn't endearing, and doesn't make you look like the victim.

Tell the truth. If everything is kosher there shouldn't be an issue, and if you made an honest mistake covering it up will only increase your problems.

If you are in your home and you think you hear an intruder, make every effort to call 9-1-1. Listen to the questions and answer them as best you can. Contrary to another post here, often times the 9-1-1 operator does not have your address (and even if they do they have to verify it). If you are forced to engage an intruder you will have the event on tape, including your commands for the person to "Get out of my house" or "Drop the knife" or whatever the situation may be.

Don't hang up on the 9-1-1 operator. They are only going to start trying to call you back. Hanging up stops the flow of information to the police, and keeps them from being able to give you instructions. Hanging up only increases the potential for you to accidentally be treated as a hostile by the police.

I don't understand the concern over semantics of "I shot" or "shots were fired" or "there has been a shooting". It's your house, it's your gun, you're the victim, you shot the assailant. The more vague you are, the more likely you are to accidentally be treated as a hostile by the police. From the time you call 9-1-1 your goal is to place yourself squarely in the VICTIM column. "There has been a shooting." doesn't really tell the police much other than they are going into an armed encounter.

Don't worry about taking photos, that is what the crime scene photographers are for. They are trained, have better equipment, and will do a better job. Your goal is simply to help preserve evidence and witnesses.

Don't call your lawyer first, unless by first you mean talking to one before you have an armed encounter. You don't want to be trying to call your lawyer while the neighbors are calling in the shots fired call. You want to be notifying the police and getting an ambulance started. Remember, its your house, its your gun, you're the victim.

You will need to give the police the basics. "That man tried to harm me, I want to press charges." is a good way to start. Make sure you are placing yourself in the victim column, and let them know you want to cooperate fully as soon as you speak with your attorney.

Expect to be detained and to be transported to a detective squadroom. This process will take hours as they investigate what occurred, but when its done they will have a good idea of what happened and you may not be arrested. In 15 years of public safety I can't think of an armed citizen that defended himself in his home or from a violent attack that was put in jail. If you're prosecuting attorneys aren't friendly to armed citizens maybe you ought to think about moving.
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Old May 13, 2009, 06:29 AM   #61
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I tend to agree with Blue Steel on one thing. If you shot the intruder, tell the 911 operator that you shot him. The police are going to come to your home. They will find your fired gun. They can give you a paraffin test to find powder residue on your hand. I mean, it's not like the gun came off of the night stand and shot the guy by itself.

After that I would say, "Here's the bad guy. Here's my gun (pointing to it). I will cooperate with the investigation fully as soon as I talk to my attorney. Please do not ask me any questions.

Guys and gals...I know two attorneys that do gun law, one specializes in it. They both advise all of their clients to remain silent. And as mentioned before, do not talk to a person sharing your cell.

The same would go for a shooting outside of the home.
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Old May 13, 2009, 08:38 AM   #62
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The less you say to the police, the less that can be twisted and distorted against you later - either in criminal or civil court. The decision to actually charge you with a crime (as opposed to take you to jail) is NOT made by responding officers but by a district attorney or assistant district attorney, and talking to the responding officers will have little to no effect on that charging decision.

Call 911, then shut the hell up until you've had the opportunity to speak (in private, of course) with a competent attorney.
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Old May 17, 2009, 03:32 PM   #63
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Quote:
(Nnobby45) I don't lay my firearm anywhere until I see flashing lights coming down the street. Certainly not while I'm calling 911. You can assume Bubba was alone, but, as Clint Smith says, Wolves travel in packs.

Some legal authorities have changed their opinions about doing a perfect imitation of a guilty person by immediately lawyering up while Bubba lay on the sidewalk in a pool of blood, making a great immitation of a victim.

A BRIEF account of what happened before you zip it up can work to your benefit.

I highly recommend the tapes put out by the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, LLC.

Especially the one: "Handling the Immediate Aftermath of a Self-Defense Shooting" by Mas Ayoob and Marty Hayes.

When you join, as I did, you get all the tapes anyway. Ayoob, Hayes, Tueller, Farnum and others make this new org. worth taking a look at.

http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/
Other than making sure you really are safe, this advice will not help you, and could ONLY hurt you long term.

Police work for the prosicution. Plain and simple.

You dont lie, but you don't want to be jacked up on ADRENALINE and talking to them either. This is why police LOVE to ask questions right after the event...people ussully yap, yap ,yap.

by all means call 911.


Lawyers are not a sign of guilt... they are a sign of understanding the system.

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Old May 17, 2009, 04:46 PM   #64
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Quote:
Man, it sounds like some of your people are Phil Spector trying to figure out how to get away with shooting your girlfriend. If you are legally armed and have a legitimate reason to defend yourself with deadly force then you should not be so paranoid. That does not mean you should not prepare for the aftermath and protect yourself.
+1

King Edward,
In the event that you were involved in a SD shooting that ended up being questionable and say went to trial, I would think that the jury / prosecution would be very interested in the fact that (you) the defendent started (multiple) internet forum threads on this subject. I'm not sure how they would fiqure out that you did, but I'm sure they could.

The instructer in my CWP class said always be carefull what you say, even to friends, because it very well could come back to haunt you. This came after I made a comment about home invader(s) that I probably shouldn't have.

I'm not in no means putting down your being curious as to the proper ways to act in a situation, but I see how someone could make the case that you were almost looking foward to being in a situation.

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Old May 17, 2009, 05:09 PM   #65
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My shooting I said "Shot fired, one down send me an ambulance and supervisor" then waited for the backup to arrive. Had an excellent witness, BG's girlfriend who stated if I haden't shot him he would have stabbed me. but that was an on duty shooting and before I was questioned in detail my Association president and lawyer were with me at the station.
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Old May 17, 2009, 05:21 PM   #66
Nnobby45
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Lawyers are not a sign of guilt... they are a sign of understanding the system.
Well, Izzy, wouldn't that include the lawyers who have actually represented citizens in shootings who now advocate a BRIEF description of what happened in order to establish yourself as the victim?

Nobody said you shouldn't call your lawyer or that you should ramble away.

Once again:

5 Things To Do After A Shooting:

-Point out the perpetrator to the police
-Tell the police you will "sign the complaint"
-Point out the evidence to the police
-Point out the witnesses to the police
-WILL GIVE STATEMENT IN 24 HOURS AFTER SPEAKING WITH AN ATTORNEY.

I guess #6 could be: then shut the hell up!

Last edited by Nnobby45; May 17, 2009 at 05:28 PM.
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Old May 17, 2009, 07:19 PM   #67
pax
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Quote:
by all means call 911.
And when you call 911, what do you SAY?

***

"911. Please state your emergency."

"Yes, I want an attorney."

"Excuse me?"

"I have a right to an attorney. Please send one."

"Sir, where do you want me to send your attorney?"

"I don't have to answer any questions without a lawyer! Please send me my attorney."

"Sir?"

"I'm not answering any more questions. I want my attorney now."

"Sir, I do not understand the nature of your emergency."

"I want my attorney."

*click*

***

Somehow, I don't think that's going to work real well. I think if you call 911, you have to say something about the nature of your emergency. Since you have to say something about the nature of your emergency, it makes sense to me that you would frame that sentence in terms of, "I was attacked..." -- thus establishing yourself as the victim of a crime.

I think when the police arrive on scene, you could choose to say nothing to them. But you're standing there with a smoking gun over a dead body. That you shot the guy is obvious at a glance. What isn't obvious at a glance is that you were attacked. It isn't immediately obvious to a cop whether there are other suspects getting away, whether there were any witnesses (who may otherwise vanish into the woodwork if not specifically called from anonymity), whether there's evidence of the crime against you anywhere on or near the scene, and that you are willing to cooperate fully as soon as you've talked to your lawyer. Those things all require some sort of verbal communication. Some of them will wait, maybe. But some of them won't.

What you choose to say to the police as they arrive on scene, amped up and ready to arrest a criminal -- whether you take the advice of experts who have been defending innocent parties in self-defense cases for years, or the advice of lawyers who specialize in getting better deals for guilty clients, or the advice of anonymous internet strangers who aren't going to chip in to pay your bail, well, that part's up to you.

But I think you should probably plan to say something besides "I want a lawyer" when you call 911. If you just stick with that, you're going to confuse the poor dispatcher, and won't get any help at all. And I think you should have a plan for what to say to the officers on scene.

As for joining the Armed Citizens Network, I'm all for it. Good people, reliable advice, good value.

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Last edited by pax; May 17, 2009 at 07:33 PM.
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Old May 17, 2009, 07:36 PM   #68
pax
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Incidentally ...

http://www.laaw.com/highstress.htm

The link above is to an article written for Law Enforcement supervisors, explaining what they should and should not tell their officers to do in the moments after a shooting. Very interesting stuff!

One of the things that struck my eye was this:

Quote:
All you, as the supervisor, really need to know (from the involved officer) is:

1. Are there any other casualties, other than what are apparent?

2. Are there any other suspects in need of apprehension?

3. Is there any evidence that is likely to be lost or compromised by delay?

4. Are there any witnesses that we need to nail down right away?

... From the officer, insist upon only that information that is actually needed right away. Then, advise the officer that (s)he has the right to remain silent and the right to an attorney, and that (s)he is well advised to exercise his/her rights.

... Get the officer in contact with HIS/HER attorney as soon as possible.
This reads very, very similar to Massad Ayoob's advice and to the advice given by the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. Ayoob tells students that if they are ever involved in a defensive shooting, they need to state the following:

1. That person attacked me. (Or those people attacked me). Point out the assailant, or point which way they went if they escaped.
2. “I will sign a complaint.” (I'm the victim.)
3. The evidence is there (point it out)
4. The witnesses are there (point them out)
5. I want a lawyer and will give a statement after I have my lawyer. Then shut up.

Hmmm. Laying one over the other, we get something like,

Casualties -- me, anyone else injured, we're the victims
Suspects -- there he is, there they are, they went that-a-way (flip-flop the first two items on the list)
Evidence -- there it is
Witnesses -- there they are
Shut up & get a lawyer

Kind of interesting that the advice cops give to each other for what to do after a shooting so closely parallels what we're hearing innocent armed citizens should do after a shooting. You'd almost think some people had studied this topic ...!

Go read the article. It's really good.

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Old May 17, 2009, 07:56 PM   #69
glock06
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I have always hear that if you have a cell phone and can take pictures of the assailant and weapon to do so. Also any car licenses and individuals present.

Yes or No??
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Old May 17, 2009, 10:44 PM   #70
newkahr
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I would be scared if I had to shoot a robber and the cops were coming. They get there and see a hyper person esp if you have your gun out, and might be making a split second decision about whether you are the offender or the homeowner. Without info from their dispatch, I reckon they'd treat you as the offender till they found otherwise.

"
Don't hang up on the 9-1-1 operator. They are only going to start trying to call you back. Hanging up stops the flow of information to the police, and keeps them from being able to give you instructions. Hanging up only increases the potential for you to accidentally be treated as a hostile by the police."
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Old May 18, 2009, 12:08 AM   #71
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Old May 18, 2009, 08:18 AM   #72
CorpITGuy
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ALWAYS have your lawyer's cell # in your wallet.

When talking to the police:
(1) He came at me.
(2) I told him to stop. He kept coming.
(3) I stopped the attack.
(4) I want to cooperate fully with your investigation, but I want my lawyer present. Thank you.
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Old May 18, 2009, 09:04 AM   #73
KingEdward
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thanks all for the replies.

the main points seem to be honesty, simplicity, knowing a little about the different sides and expectations, being co-operative and pointing out the truth.

this would be a very stressful moment in one's life and it will be important to be able to help police and to ask for medical assistance and to have in mind these "basics" so that whatever else is spinning around in the mind will not come out of the mouth.
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Old May 18, 2009, 10:17 AM   #74
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KingEdward ~

The main point is don't talk too much. Say what you absolutely need to say, and no more.

The people who suggest you say nothing at all have a good point: many people do find it easier to keep their lips entirely closed than it is to say only what needs to be said. But you won't help your case if the witnesses walk away and the evidence that supports your story disappears before you tell it.

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Old May 18, 2009, 10:39 PM   #75
Glock26
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advice from an LEO

Call 911 and tell the dispatcher someone has broken into your home and they are shot. Tell the dispatcher you have a weapon. When the police arrive before they approach you place the weapon in a visable area away from your person. Put your hands in the air palms towards them, be prepared to be atleast handcuffed don't resist and don't talk smart to them. Be polite and cooperative. Weather or not you are charged will depend on the circumstances. If the subject was running from you and you shot him in the back as he made it for the door. Be ready to go to jail.
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