The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 30, 2009, 08:48 PM   #1
JWT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2007
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 3,189
Conn. Senate OKs machine gun ban for children

Associated Press
April 30, 2009
HARTFORD, Conn. - The Connecticut Senate has passed legislation banning people from letting anyone under 16 years old handle or shoot fully automatic machine guns in the state.

The legislation stems from an October incident in which an 8-year-old Ashford boy died when he accidentally shot himself in the head with an Uzi during a gun fair in Westfield, Mass.

The Senate passed the bill on a 31-2 vote Thursday. It now awaits House action.



Seems like another knee jerk reaction by politicians to a very, very unfortunate accident. It's difficult to legislate common sense and that is what was missing when the 8 year old was shot.
JWT is offline  
Old April 30, 2009, 09:15 PM   #2
OnTheFly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2007
Location: SE Nebraska
Posts: 779
I'm sure there is a law that will allow the DA to prosecute the individual for negligence. Why do we need laws for every possible situation?

Fly
__________________
I told my wife I was scheduling a mid-life crisis. It was either a Harley or guns. Secretly, I've already decided on guns. :-)

Bang... Bang... Bang...
OnTheFly is offline  
Old April 30, 2009, 09:50 PM   #3
Capt_Vin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2006
Posts: 266
Why do we need laws for every possible situation? Simple...just another way for the government to control us and every aspect of our lives, no other reason.
Capt_Vin is offline  
Old April 30, 2009, 10:03 PM   #4
KLRANGL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 958
New constitutional amendment: "Common sense being necessary for a free state, The right for Darwin to implement his theories shall not be infringed"

Any inside info as to if this CT law will pas?
__________________
And it's Killer Angel... as in the book
KLRANGL is offline  
Old April 30, 2009, 10:28 PM   #5
OnTheFly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2007
Location: SE Nebraska
Posts: 779
Quote:
Why do we need laws for every possible situation? Simple...just another way for the government to control us and every aspect of our lives, no other reason.
Yeah...I actually knew that. My question was kind of rhetorical.

Fly
__________________
I told my wife I was scheduling a mid-life crisis. It was either a Harley or guns. Secretly, I've already decided on guns. :-)

Bang... Bang... Bang...

Last edited by OnTheFly; May 1, 2009 at 08:27 AM.
OnTheFly is offline  
Old April 30, 2009, 11:47 PM   #6
Al Norris
Staff
 
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,319
Moving to L&CR...
__________________
National listings of the Current 2A Cases.
Al Norris is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 12:51 AM   #7
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
We dont let kids under 16 drive, buy smokes, drink, play hockey without faceshields, go to strip joints, operate excavators, etc etc why should they blast machine guns?

Get a grip guys, its not the end of the world. The candle of freedom isnt being blown out by this puff of air from the Ct legislature.

WilditsallaboutperspectiveAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 01:02 AM   #8
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 17,045
It was very bad supervision.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 05:58 AM   #9
stargazer65
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2009
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 761
Quote:
Get a grip guys, its not the end of the world. The candle of freedom isnt being blown out by this puff of air from the Ct legislature.
I agree it's not the end of the world. I just hate to see this kind of knee jerk gun legislation. It's poor leadership, makes you wonder what's next.
stargazer65 is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 06:53 AM   #10
mskdgunman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2008
Posts: 127
I think the problem is with Govements (any of them) trying to legislate common sense which we all know is impossible. When a politician feels impotent on a particular matter, the instinct is to try and pass a law regulating that behavior. Sometimes a particular behavior doesn't attract the atention of a law maker until it touches them personally...then it's a big deal and something needs to be done NOW! Our current pending seatbelt law is a prime example. A politicians child gets killed in an accident while not wearing a seat belt and all of the sudden it's a major issue. The whole incident with the child getting killed with the Uzi was bad supervision and bad luck. Law's won't change that
mskdgunman is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 07:36 AM   #11
tyme
Staff
 
Join Date: October 13, 2001
Posts: 3,184
Quote:
The legislation stems from an October incident in which an 8-year-old Ashford boy died when he accidentally shot himself in the head with an Uzi during a gun fair in Westfield, Mass.
Would the boy be any less dead if he'd accidentally shot himself in the head with a 1911 or Hi-Power? No? Then everyone who voted for this legislation on the basis of that event should be kicked out of office.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildandWittyinAlaska
We dont let kids under 16 drive, buy smokes, drink, play hockey without faceshields, go to strip joints, operate excavators, etc etc why should they blast machine guns?

Get a grip guys, its not the end of the world. The candle of freedom isnt being blown out by this puff of air from the Ct legislature.
Failing to object when legislators pass laws based on freak events, particularly when the law only addresses a particular subtype of those freak events and ignores the fact that many other situations not covered by the laws can have equally tragic outcomes, is one reason so many things are over-regulated in so many countries including this one.

Why just automatic weapons? Why not a law that prohibits children under 16 from playing with high explosives, biological weapons, and nuclear weapons, too?

What problem does this legislation seek to address? If it seeks to address children shooting themselves in the head with firearms, it fails because it addresses only a tiny fraction of the firearms used in those cases. Of course nobody (sane) wants to ban children under 16 firing any firearms, primarily because of the hunting tradition (and secondarily because many people recognize target shooting as a relatively safe activity that's legitimate for children as well as adults), so legislators pass BS laws like this in an attempt to pander to their constituents.

Children shooting themselves is tragic, but this sort of pandering and playing on the emotions of the public for political gain is even more tragic.
__________________
“The egg hatched...” “...the egg hatched... and a hundred baby spiders came out...” (blade runner)
“Who are you?” “A friend. I'm here to prevent you from making a mistake.” “You have no idea what I'm doing here, friend.” “In specific terms, no, but I swore an oath to protect the world...” (continuum)
“It's a goal you won't understand until later. Your job is to make sure he doesn't achieve the goal.” (bsg)
tyme is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 07:48 AM   #12
alloy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
4V50 Gary said:
Quote:
It was very bad supervision
I remember when it happened, and those are/were my thoughts. On the other hand i have no issue with those clown signs at the amusement park that say "you must be this tall"
Maybe we need an all encompassing law against accidents.

I don't know what the frequency/stats are on kids under 16 shooting themselves in the head with machine guns while under adult supervision, but i suspect the percentage is low enough to not need a special law. As far as it goes, they really shouldn't even be let outside of the house, the little monkeys.

Quote:
The Connecticut Senate has passed legislation banning people from letting anyone under 16 years old handle XX XXXXX fully automatic machine guns in the state.
Evidently they can't even fondle/inspect an unloaded one at a museum now?? Can they still climb on the anti-aircraft gun or into the B-52 tail gunner's position? Idiotic, haven't read the bill but if it's as reported in the OP....:barf:
__________________
Quote:
The uncomfortable question common to all who have had revolutionary changes imposed on them: are we now to accept what was done to us just because it was done?
Angelo Codevilla

Last edited by alloy; May 1, 2009 at 08:43 AM.
alloy is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 08:33 AM   #13
ilbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2006
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 515
Quote:
Why do we need laws for every possible situation?
A person who should have known better handed a loaded machine gun to a child. You should not have to tell anyone how bad of an idea that is, but apparently some people feel it is their right to do stupid things.
__________________
bob

Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.
ilbob is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 09:07 AM   #14
OnTheFly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2007
Location: SE Nebraska
Posts: 779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildalaska
Get a grip guys, its not the end of the world. The candle of freedom isnt being blown out by this puff of air from the Ct legislature.
Nobody is calling for anarchy, just that our elected officials use common sense. I think tyme has it nailed below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyme
Children shooting themselves is tragic, but this sort of pandering and playing on the emotions of the public for political gain is even more tragic.
In aviation, as with many industries, when a trend of accidents/incidents appears, then procedures are implemented to mitigate the risk. When one accident/incident occurs and it reveals a gaping hole in policy/procedure, then new policy/procedure is developed to address the issue. Though the single occurrence is rare since the task of flying a plane is not uncharted territory, and aviation is already heavily regulated.

If there was a trend of children under the age of 16 shooting themselves, then it might be understandable that new legislation would be proposed; however, I highly doubt this is the case. Referring to aviation again...when a pilot does something that causes an accident, incident, or just an unsafe situation, the FAA has the ability to violate them under the "Careless and Reckless" clause. That is to say, if you weren't breaking any regulations, but knowingly did something that was dangerous, you can have your license revoked, suspended, or at least have a bad mark on your record. We already have similar laws on the books. Cause the death of a person due to your negligence and you can be charged with manslaughter.



If the guy above dies, does there have to be a law against using an electric hand tool, on a metal ladder, in a pool or can we just expect people to use common sense?

Fly
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Safety_Ladder_In_Pool.jpg (16.7 KB, 237 views)
__________________
I told my wife I was scheduling a mid-life crisis. It was either a Harley or guns. Secretly, I've already decided on guns. :-)

Bang... Bang... Bang...
OnTheFly is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 09:14 AM   #15
Kreyzhorse
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2006
Location: NKY
Posts: 11,514
You can't make a law against every freak occurance that happens. Sadly this young boy died, but was certainly the exception, not the rule.
__________________
"He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson
Kreyzhorse is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 09:41 AM   #16
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,835
Not being a legal beagle - don't normal laws against negligence handle this?

In TX, we had a tragic incident where a young boy fired a 454 Casuall (IIRC) and the end of the barrel recoiled and hit him in the head - killed him. So should we ban by calibers. There was a case where a Desert Eagle 50 AE recoil caused a second shot to decapitate the shooter on the range and it was a range employee. So ban heavy recoiling guns?

I think special laws like this are just political posturing or ill thought out. Normal legal processes could handle this incident.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 09:58 AM   #17
MedicineBow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 297
This isn't about legislating against "accidents."

This is about legislating against handing fully automatic weapons to children.

As was said above, we're not allowed to hand kids booze, cigarettes, cars, etc. Which is a good thing.

No need to get everyone's panties in a knot because this law involves some sort of gun.
__________________
Dulce bellum inexpertis
MedicineBow is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 09:59 AM   #18
jg0001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2007
Posts: 551
Quote:
There was a case where a Desert Eagle 50 AE recoil caused a second shot to decapitate the shooter on the range and it was a range employee.
Got a link to that story? I tried googling for it out of curiosity. [I'd like to know what happened to the extent it helps avoid getting in the same situation.]
jg0001 is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 10:12 AM   #19
Al Norris
Staff
 
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,319
Quote:
Originally Posted by MedicineBow
This isn't about legislating against "accidents."

This is about legislating against handing fully automatic weapons to children.
While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, this law is nothing more than knee-jerk legislation. It serves no real purpose.

If the OP is accurate, setting such an arbitrary age (16) is just stupid. Go to any third world country and you will find 16 yr. olds quite capable of handling full auto firearms. Ask anyone who has been in close combat.
__________________
National listings of the Current 2A Cases.
Al Norris is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 10:20 AM   #20
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
Failing to object when legislators pass laws based on freak events, particularly when the law only addresses a particular subtype of those freak events and ignores the fact that many other situations not covered by the laws can have equally tragic outcomes, is one reason so many things are over-regulated in so many countries including this one.

Why just automatic weapons? Why not a law that prohibits children under 16 from playing with high explosives, biological weapons, and nuclear weapons, too?
Theres a loophole then..add that stuff too.

Quote:
While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, this law is nothing more than knee-jerk legislation. It serves no real purpose.
Alternatively, it can lookied at as a solution to a problem that has arisen. One mans knee jerk is another mans "don't let under 13s be deli clerks and use the slicer"


Quote:
Go to any third world country and you will find 16 yr. olds quite capable of handling full auto firearms. Ask anyone who has been in close combat.
There is something logically wrong with that argument but being I just woke up and am starting to get tummy stress due to an impending 14 hour flight, I just cant think of it....

WildwhereislarvatuswhenineedhimAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 10:22 AM   #21
MedicineBow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 297
Quote:
While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, this law is nothing more than knee-jerk legislation. It serves no real purpose.
It serves the purpose of outlawing handing automatic weapons to kids under 16.

Which is a good purpose.

And entirely consistent with other good laws we have banning giving dangerous things to kids.

So, while you're entitled to your opinion, absolutely this is a good law which may do some good and will do no harm.
__________________
Dulce bellum inexpertis
MedicineBow is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 10:24 AM   #22
B. Lahey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 17, 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,839
Quote:
We dont let kids under 16 drive, buy smokes, drink, play hockey without faceshields, go to strip joints, operate excavators, etc etc why should they blast machine guns?
Um... Because I got to blast machine guns when I was 11 or 12, it was fun as hell, and other kids should be able to have the same experience?

I wouldn't be half the gun nut I am today if it hadn't been for stuff like that.

.22s are great, but if you let a kid shoot the guns he wants to shoot, that's even better.
__________________
"A human being is primarily a bag for putting food into; the other functions and faculties may be more godlike, but in point of time they come afterwards."
-George Orwell
B. Lahey is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 11:06 AM   #23
chemgirlie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2009
Location: WI
Posts: 331
Some of the underage laws baffle me, this one included.

For instance, last time I went to the grocery store I got a bottle of wine. The cashier was under 18, so she had to call another guy over to scan the bottle. Apparently she might get drunk from running a bottle over a scanner.

Shouldn't parental responsibility take a place somewhere? Some kids are ready to shoot at a young age (even machine guns), and some aren't. It's up to the parent to decide when the kid is ready, not the legislature.

Where do we draw the line between laws protecting kids and the government overstepping on parental responsibility and discretion?
chemgirlie is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 11:25 AM   #24
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,835
Bah, I can't find a link - too many hits and no combos worked.

The story, IIRC, was that some guy buys a Desert Eagle 50 AE at the gun store or rents it. There is an indoor range. Dude goes to the lane and the gun is too much for him. He leaves the gun and tells the range employee that he can use up the box of ammo. The employee is found with two rounds fired. The analysis was that the first round recoil brought the gun back and he spasmodically fired one back into his head.

I don't think I dreamed it.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old May 1, 2009, 11:30 AM   #25
MedicineBow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 297
Quote:
It's up to the parent to decide when the kid is ready
No, it's not.

I have zero interest in letting parents decide when a kid is "ready" to drive a car, drink, work in the **** industry, operate bulldozers, or handle automatic weapons.

No one has to like it, but it's a fact that a minority of adults are so damn careless or destructive that -- as in this CT case -- they'd decide that kids are "ready" for all of the above when they're 8 years old. And then there's suddenly huge danger for the kids and us.

Laws are written to protect against aberrant behavior, not the norm.

Quote:
Where do we draw the line between laws protecting kids and the government overstepping on parental responsibility and discretion?
You're right, that's the question (except these laws don't just protect the kids; they protect adults too, and society). And that all gets worked out in the neverending debates among the public, their representatives, and the courts.
__________________
Dulce bellum inexpertis
MedicineBow is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13054 seconds with 10 queries