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Old April 30, 2009, 05:49 PM   #51
cjw3cma
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No such restrictions here. Nothing wrong with having a beer after work and not having to leave my gun locked up in the truck. Being sensible is the key.
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Old April 30, 2009, 05:51 PM   #52
hogdogs
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Medicine bow, I may be wrong but I do not think you can forbid speaking... maybe ask them to leave the business...
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Old April 30, 2009, 05:58 PM   #53
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Yes.

And yes.
Good answer MedicineBow!

In fact, if I am on your property you can tell me to leave and don't even need a reason. If I don't leave I am trepassing. As someone has pointed out, in most places a merchant's establishment may come under some additional rules, some of which may include some type of "equal accomodation" statutes that may prevent the merchant from refusing service to someone. These, however are usually non-discrimination statutes. If TGIF's let's others wear OC guns but not you, you might have a case - depends on Virginia's laws. But if they prohibit everyone from carrying open in the restuarnt, that would come under the heading of "they would rather lose your business".

Did someone say that some states have laws that require merchants to serve gun toters?
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Old April 30, 2009, 06:09 PM   #54
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here in the republic of Wisconsin - i think we are one of the last states to have strict anti "concealed carry" laws/policies ... just the other day our state attorney general announced that open carry is not illegal... the immediate response of the Milwaukee PD--- http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepo.../43347632.html

"My message to my troops is if you see anybody carrying a gun on the streets of Milwaukee, we'll put them on the ground, take the gun away and then decide whether you have a right to carry it," Flynn said. "Maybe I'll end up with a protest of cowboys. In the meantime, I've got serious offenders with access to handguns. It's irresponsible to send a message to them that if they just carry it openly no one can bother them."

how is that for suppression? 2A rights? what 2a rights?
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Old April 30, 2009, 07:17 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Creature
For example, if you are on my property, am I within my rights to forbid you from speaking? How about your right to LEAVE my property...if I forbid you to leave, does it mean you must comply with my request? A little extreme, but you get the point. You have a certain rights that may not be infringed. If you wont allow me to carry a gun which I use for personal protection on your private property, then is it not reasonable for me to expect you to safeguard my well being and provide for my safety?
Sure it would be reasonable, in my mind. I'm not putting up their signs or demanding that armed citizens leave my property. I'm not the one that sees the gun as the danger, rather than the idiot carrying it or the good tool that it can be. The way gun owners are portrayed these days by TV and the extreme left really screws up how the gun- neutral people in society view armed, decent, responsible citizens. But on my property, what I say goes, on yours what you say goes and on theirs what they say goes.
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Old April 30, 2009, 07:26 PM   #56
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Al nailed it. Right or wrong, once you open your property to the public, you're subject to any number of regulations.

Quote:
Just because you are on their property doesn't mean they have the right to violate your rights or compromise your safety, does it?
On my property (not open to the public) I'd be leaving myself open to litigation if I did something to compromise your safety, but your right to free speech, carrying a firearm, etc. goes away at my discretion.

Of course I'd probably let you carry on my property and maybe even speak your mind.... maybe.
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Old April 30, 2009, 09:43 PM   #57
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It's really very simple, on a couple of points...

1. I have the freedom to choose where I spend my hard-earned cash. I'd rather support those merchants who support the 2A.

2. If you feel the need to carry in a place that may be prohibited in your state, that's your choice...but concealed is concealed.
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Old May 2, 2009, 12:13 AM   #58
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I'm not a lawyer, but I can't see how a business owner of any commercial establishment that advertises to and serves the general public can legally refuse to serve a patron who is quietly going about his own business and breaking no public law. I'm assuming of course that what we're being told in this forum about this particular situation is true, i.e., that carrying a concealed weapon into an establishment that serves alcohol in Virginia is illegal, but that openly carrying a gun into such an establishment isn't illegal. Of course, I don't know if that's really true or not - it sounds crazy - but if it is true, why isn't that business owner required by law to serve that patron? The business owner is not running a private club in which the members have as the price of joining, agreed to check some their rights at the door before entering.

This seems very much akin to the restaurants in the South who once refused to serve blacks. They can't do that now. You can't just stomp on someones civil rights like that any more. What I think would be very interesting to see, is what would happen if a well-dressed, card-carrying NAACP-belonging, black patron, who was quietly minding his own business, openly carried a gun into this white(?) Virginia establishment. The owner wouldn't know whether to s*#! or go blind. But I do imagine that owner would think twice before he refused to serve that black patron and ordered him to leave because the price of violating that patrons civil rights are known to be very high. I'd pay money to see that confrontation.
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Old May 2, 2009, 12:18 AM   #59
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The one that we had closed months ago. Never went there, just saw it in the paper.
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Old May 2, 2009, 12:23 AM   #60
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As I always say...

Big business is NOT pro-gun
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Old May 2, 2009, 12:47 AM   #61
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If I had a restaurant, and it was my property, I'd want to set the rules for what goes on inside my 4 walls. I consider my business an extension of MY stuff. Interconnected to my home via my name.

So although some business owners are ignorant, I think going on rampages against them like boycotts for something like this, serves to make responsible firearm owners look bad. And may cause more damage in the long run.

Also - exposed guns in a restaurant can scare other people. And fear means lost business and income. To reply an obvious answer to post #58.

It's a business owner's responsibility to manage their own business, safety and protocol.

Personally though - all conceal carry license holders would be welcome in my joint. Might even offer them a 10% discount for improving the safety and security.
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Old May 2, 2009, 02:36 PM   #62
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I saw something like this on a similar thread, so I mad up a loyout that you can print, flip the paper on its long axis and get these two sided cards:

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Old May 2, 2009, 03:56 PM   #63
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5Wire - very nice. That says it all, IMHO.

DG - in Texas, it's because there is a statute that authorizes them to do so. It's their property, their right. If someone who is denied service (the person who started this thread, perhaps) wants to sue and get their case up to the Supreme Court, I'm sure you could raise the question of whether a restaurant that participates in interstate commerce has the right to prohibit CCWs on their property.

Problem is, (1) those with CCWs do not constitute a protected class (sex, race, etc.), and (2) it's a much smaller group of people than those at risk of race discrimination - so less restriction on interstate commerce by refusing to serve those with CCW. (Although the number of individuals with a CCW is probably growing exponentially as we type.)

I'm not a Constitutional expert, but I'm pretty sure you need to just take your business elsewhere. Someone else who has a better legal understanding of the nuances may want to jump in here

Quote:
"My message to my troops is if you see anybody carrying a gun on the streets of Milwaukee, we'll put them on the ground, take the gun away and then decide whether you have a right to carry it," Flynn said. "Maybe I'll end up with a protest of cowboys. In the meantime, I've got serious offenders with access to handguns. It's irresponsible to send a message to them that if they just carry it openly no one can bother them."
Holy geez, that's nuts.
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Old May 2, 2009, 05:07 PM   #64
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I'm not a lawyer, but I can't see how a business owner of any commercial establishment that advertises to and serves the general public can legally refuse to serve a patron who is quietly going about his own business and breaking no public law.
Actually, they can. An establishment/business has the right to "refuse service" to anyone (and some display signs saying so) for almost any reason, including the place just doesn't like their looks. The legal and civil ramifications would have to be settled in court later, but the expulsion would stand if the LEOs were called.

For example, in NC, open carry is legal except if carried "in terror of the public". What this means is: if you carry openly into Wal-Mart, and someone is scared of you and your gun and complains - you may be asked to leave, remove your weapon, or you may be arrested. Now, that being said. when I lived in Monroe, NC, I constantly open carried into several businesses, including Wal-Mart, and never had any problems.

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Old May 2, 2009, 06:45 PM   #65
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5Wire - very nice. That says it all, IMHO.
Thanks, stilettosixshooter. I can only take credit for the layout. As I mentioned, the bullet points () were created by someone else a while back on this or another forum.
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Old May 2, 2009, 07:05 PM   #66
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5Wire,
I like that.
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Old May 2, 2009, 08:02 PM   #67
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Actually, they can. An establishment/business has the right to "refuse service" to anyone (and some display signs saying so) for almost any reason...
there are 'protected classes' that you may not discriminate against for membership in the class.

This is well decided law (thin Civil Rights Act of 1964) and any 'public accommodation' violates it at their own peril.

They will be run out of business with the legal fees alone, let alone if it gets into a court.

Carrying a gun does not place you into a protected class, and if the owner wants to eject you he will succeed.

If a member of a protected class is ejected for other reasons it will stand also.
The owner just better make damn sure he has enforced the rule evenly.
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Old May 3, 2009, 11:57 AM   #68
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If I had a restaurant, and it was my property, I'd want to set the rules for what goes on inside my 4 walls. I consider my business an extension of MY stuff. Interconnected to my home via my name.
As a business owner I can tell you it does not work that way.


Quote:
Personally though - all conceal carry license holders would be welcome in my joint.
Unfortunately the OP did not have that option, the only way he could legally carry was openly, or not at all.

Quote:
For example, in NC, open carry is legal except if carried "in terror of the public". What this means is: if you carry openly into Wal-Mart, and someone is scared of you and your gun and complains - you may be asked to leave, remove your weapon, or you may be arrested.
Glad I live in the free part of the south.
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Old May 3, 2009, 06:26 PM   #69
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"As a side argument - does anyone think all handgun laws should be Federal and the same for all states - no individuality? How I dare suggest taking away some state's rights! "

Federal Law? Written by Nancy Pelosi and friends?

Surely you jest!
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Old May 3, 2009, 06:48 PM   #70
Senator Vitaman
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are any of the places that are prohibited to CCW carriers also prohibited to open carry?
I think so. A CCW actually lifts some restrictions.
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Old May 3, 2009, 08:19 PM   #71
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This is what I found for Michigan.

It is unlawful to possess a firearm in a financial institution, church, court, school, hospital, theater, sports arena, restaurant with a liquor or alcohol license or day care center.

Since it states possess, I'd take that as both concealed and unconcealed.
This is only part of Michigan's law. Anyone who is authorized by Michigan or another state to carry concealed is except from the above restrictions. Concealed Pistol License holders are not allowed to carry concealed in any of the pistol free zones: school, daycare, arena, entertainment facility with seating capacity > 2500, religious institution, tavern with > 50% sales from alcohol, hospital, university or casino.

Michigan is an open carry state (confirmed by a Michigan State Police Bulletin). It is illegal for there to be any firearms in the areas mentioned in the quote, unless a person is police, a CPL holder or otherwise excepted by law. It is illegal to carry concealed (the law specifies concealed) in the pistol free areas.
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Old May 3, 2009, 11:20 PM   #72
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For example, if you are on my property, am I within my rights to forbid you from speaking? How about your right to LEAVE my property...if I forbid you to leave, does it mean you must comply with my request?
Yes to the first, no to the second. On your property you may forbid speech. You may not forbid exit, as that would constitute a kidnap, unlawful detention, etc. barring some special situations.
Quote:
You have a certain rights that may not be infringed.
All rights are subject to restriction, and barring specific state statutes private property owners are well within their rights to prohibit guns.
Quote:
If you wont allow me to carry a gun which I use for personal protection on your private property, then is it not reasonable for me to expect you to safeguard my well being and provide for my safety?
Your safety has been provided for by the business in a manner that is considered legal, reasonable, and in line with industry standards. By voluntarily entering onto the property you agree to accept the level and style of protection they have determined appropriate.
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Old May 3, 2009, 11:25 PM   #73
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I'm not a lawyer, but I can't see how a business owner of any commercial establishment that advertises to and serves the general public can legally refuse to serve a patron who is quietly going about his own business and breaking no public law.
Happens all the time. A restaurant can refuse to seat you for being improperly dressed, for example.
Quote:
This seems very much akin to the restaurants in the South who once refused to serve blacks. They can't do that now. You can't just stomp on someones civil rights like that any more.
Not even close. Carrying a gun anywhere you want is not a civil right.
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Old May 4, 2009, 12:16 AM   #74
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Carrying a gun anywhere you want is not a civil right.
True enough. If there's going to be a conflict between 2nd Amendment rights and private property rights, I'm a bit uncomfortable.

Plain fact is, there are other restaurants. Your life isn't being disrupted all that much by this.

If you do want to carry there, I'd politely and diplomatically approach management and try to convince them to change their minds. It does work sometimes.

"Self control and intellect," to quote the OP. Instead, I see typing in ALL CAPS and the manager named personally on a worldwide internet forum, along with a call for a boycott before we've even heard a statement from the company proper.

I'm hoping the conversation didn't take the tone that the post implies, or you've lost any chance at converting the manager. Like most people under 50 in this country, he grew up in a culture that's done its best to teach him that guns are bad, and that anyone carrying one must have a chip on their shoulder.

By all means, fight the perception, but don't castigate the man for falling prey to the same pack of lies that's been fed to us for decades.
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Old May 4, 2009, 09:57 AM   #75
Glenn E. Meyer
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Carrying a gun anywhere you want is not a civil right.
That is legally true. IMHO, that should be changed such that carrying is a civil right and can only be taken away in specific circumstances that can pose a clear and present technical danger.

For example, carrying by the MRI which will cause your gun to go off or be dragged to the machine.

Thus, carriers should be a protected class. But that's just my view. Does this view conflict with the property rights crowd - yes - but some of them still argue for the right to oppose segregation and I have little use for that view.
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