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Old April 29, 2009, 05:24 AM   #1
Dust
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Pilot buying/flying with guns

Just thinking about this, and wanted to know where the law stood. I did a search and saw alot of stuff about staying out of Chicago and NYC, but didn't see anything about flying after buying. Can a pilot, just a normal pilot, no special licenses aside from a Texas Hunter's Education, buy a gun in another state, and bring it back to Texas with him/her? I know that flying with a gun is okay, but don't know about buying and flying.

Last edited by Dust; April 29, 2009 at 11:13 PM.
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Old April 29, 2009, 07:01 AM   #2
blume357
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Depends on the length of the gun as well as the state.

A long gun you probably could, depending on the state... a short / hand gun no.
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Old April 29, 2009, 08:29 AM   #3
Shorts
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This one is addressed in Federal law:


A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm
from an out-of-state source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer
in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.
[18 U. S. C 922(a)( 3)and (5), 922( b)(3), 27 CFR 178.29]



A person may “sell” a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her state (you the visitor in
another state), if the buyer is not prohibited by law from receiving or possessing a firearm, or to a
licensee in any state. A firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed
collector. [18 U. S. C 922(a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]



Link added: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/legal/interstate.htm
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Old April 29, 2009, 09:07 AM   #4
carguychris
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Federal law prohibits U.S. residents without a Federal Firearms License (FFL) from buying a handgun out-of-state. Handgun purchases must go through a FFL in your home state. If you want to buy a handgun at an out-of-state dealer, they must send it to a dealer in your home state, who will then transfer it to you.

An out-of-state dealer FFL may sell you a long gun (rifle or shotgun) as long as the transaction is conducted over-the-counter at their officially licensed place of business {27 CFR § 478.29(b)}. This usually means that you may not buy at a gun show. I have, however, heard of instances where a gun show purchase was arranged by sending the gun to the official business location for later pickup by the buyer, or arranging for the buyer to pick up an identical gun from inventory.

An out-of-state collector or Curio & Relic (C&R) FFL may sell you a C&R-eligible long gun anywhere as long as the transaction occurs face-to-face. The license is granted to an individual, so that person is the "place of business". However, to reiterate, this rule is only valid for C&R-eligible firearms.

Section 46.07 of the Texas Penal Code could theoretically be interpreted to prohibit a Texas resident from buying firearms in states that aren't contiguous, i.e. states other than LA, AR, OK, and NM.
Quote:
Sec.46.07. INTERSTATE PURCHASE. A resident of this state
may, if not otherwise precluded by law, purchase firearms,
ammunition, reloading components, or firearm accessories in
contiguous states. This authorization is enacted in conformance
with Section 922(b)(3)(A), Public Law 90-618, 90th Congress.
Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Renumbered from Penal Code Sec. 46.08 by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch.
900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.
This statute was passed in response to a federal law about contiguous-state purchases that was repealed some years ago. It doesn't explicitly say you can't buy firearms in non-contiguous states, and I haven't heard of anyone actually being prosecuted for doing so, but it's something to contemplate if you're the "better safe than sorry" type. YMMV. FWIW this law is widely expected to be repealed in the current legislative session, but AFAIK it hasn't happened yet.

Mandatory disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. This is not official legal advice. YMMV.
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Old April 29, 2009, 09:22 AM   #5
Shorts
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Quote:
An out-of-state dealer FFL may sell you a long gun (rifle or shotgun) as long as the transaction is conducted over-the-counter at their officially licensed place of business {27 CFR § 478.29(b)}. This usually means that you may not buy at a gun show. I have, however, heard of instances where a gun show purchase was arranged by sending the gun to the official business location for later pickup by the buyer, or arranging for the buyer to pick up an identical gun from inventory.

How does that get around the "firearm" verbage cited in 27 CFR 178.29.

The chicken or the egg? Update? I'm just confused on that.
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Old April 29, 2009, 10:51 AM   #6
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Quote:
How does that get around the "firearm" verbage cited in 27 CFR 178.29.
I can't find a 27 CFR 178.
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Old April 29, 2009, 11:00 AM   #7
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Hmmm....I missed that up somewhere
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Old April 29, 2009, 11:11 AM   #8
NavyLT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carguychris
Section 46.07 of the Texas Penal Code could theoretically be interpreted to prohibit a Texas resident from buying firearms in states that aren't contiguous, i.e. states other than LA, AR, OK, and NM.

Quote:
Sec.46.07. INTERSTATE PURCHASE. A resident of this state
may, if not otherwise precluded by law, purchase firearms,
ammunition, reloading components, or firearm accessories in
contiguous states. This authorization is enacted in conformance
with Section 922(b)(3)(A), Public Law 90-618, 90th Congress.
Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Renumbered from Penal Code Sec. 46.08 by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch.
900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

This statute was passed in response to a federal law about contiguous-state purchases that was repealed some years ago. It doesn't explicitly say you can't buy firearms in non-contiguous states, and I haven't heard of anyone actually being prosecuted for doing so, but it's something to contemplate if you're the "better safe than sorry" type. YMMV. FWIW this law is widely expected to be repealed in the current legislative session, but AFAIK it hasn't happened yet.
BATFE has interpreted this to allow Texas residents to buy long guns from FFLs just about anywhere. August 2004 FFL Newsletter:

Quote:
CONTIGUOUS STATE – PART 2

In an article that appeared in the December 2002
edition of the FFL Newsletter, we advised FFLs
that the “contiguous state” provisions of the Gun
Control Act were amended in 1986, and that the
GCA allows dealers to sell or dispose of a long
gun to a resident of another state provided, (1) the
purchaser was not otherwise prohibited from
receiving or possessing a firearm under the GCA,
and ( 2) the sale, delivery and receipt fully comply
with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s and
seller’s States.

The condition of sale relating to compliance with
the applicable laws of both States cited above
continues to cause confusion among dealers,
particularly among those dealers who conduct
business in a State whose laws presently contain
language that allows “contiguous state” sales.
Historically, prior to the 1986 amendments to the
GCA, many States enacted provisions in their laws
that allowed their residents to acquire a long gun in
a contiguous State. For the most part, these State
law provisions were modeled after the contiguous
state provisions of the GCA. However, even
though the GCA was amended in 1986 to allow
the sale of long guns to residents of any State
pursuant to the conditions cited above, many States
have not yet amended their laws to reflect similar
language. ATF takes the position that if the laws
of a given State allow its residents to acquire a long
gun in a contiguous State, those laws also allow its
residents to acquire a long gun in any other State
where the laws of that State permit such
transactions, unless the language contained in that
State’s law expressly prohibits it residents from
acquiring a firearm outside that State. Questions
regarding particular State law provisions should be
referred to your local ATF office.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/newslett...sltr_aug04.pdf
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Old April 29, 2009, 11:18 AM   #9
Brian Pfleuger
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This here should pretty well answer your questions.
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Old April 29, 2009, 07:06 PM   #10
Dust
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Lets clarify that the only guns being purchased will be by a lawabiding citizen with no record, and the guns will only be long guns.
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Old April 29, 2009, 09:34 PM   #11
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Clarify again. COmmercial pilot
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Old April 29, 2009, 09:38 PM   #12
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I'm trying to figure out what his profession has to do with purchasing guns.
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Old April 29, 2009, 10:21 PM   #13
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It is a felony to have any kind of gun (longgun, licensed CCW, anything) in a secure area of a Texas airport. I'm assuming there is some exception for armed pilots (I don't know the laws on that), as I'm sure they have to get the gun on the plane somehow. I had just messaged Dust to see if he knew the rules for commercial pilots carrying to and from the plane.

Not so much applicable for the buying, but possibly a consideration for the transporting.
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Old April 29, 2009, 10:43 PM   #14
carguychris
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Quote:
Lets clarify that the only guns being purchased will be by a lawabiding citizen with no record, and the guns will only be long guns.
You can purchase a long gun from a FFL dealer but only at their registered place of business.

You can purchase a C&R long gun from a C&R FFL at any location.

Certain states have regulations regarding firearms sales that affect everyone who comes in their door, including residents of other states. This includes several states on the East Coast, CA, and IL. The restrictions are too complex to easily explain here. If traveling to these areas, I recommend contacting the FFL in advance to learn what hurdles you may encounter. However, in most states near TX, you will be fine.
Quote:
It is a felony to have any kind of gun (longgun, licensed CCW, anything) in a secure area of a Texas airport.
The "secure area" is essentially the same as the "sterile area" as explained in 49 CFR 1544. Many commercial pilots never have a reason to enter a sterile area, regardless of whether they're carrying a firearm. Furthermore, the vast majority of airports have no sterile area.
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Old April 29, 2009, 10:49 PM   #15
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I guess I just figured a pilot who wished to transport a personal firearm would do so in checked baggage just like a passenger.
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Old April 29, 2009, 11:06 PM   #16
Dust
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His profession has a lot to do with it. He has the ability to pick up a gun, and travel across several state lines in a single day. I am wondering what laws would apply to pilots, being that they travel all over the country/world. I would like to ask him to pick up something in another state and bring it back, instead of having to register the purchase with the government and pay to ship it. Put in in a case, with the gun unloaded.disabled, and checked as baggage, what problems would he have flying within the US?

Last edited by Dust; April 29, 2009 at 11:11 PM.
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Old April 29, 2009, 11:18 PM   #17
stilettosixshooter
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Quote:
I guess I just figured a pilot who wished to transport a personal firearm would do so in checked baggage just like a passenger.
Yeah, nevermind, I thought Dust mentioned that his friend was a pilot because they can carry onboard. Checking it is the obvious choice, and the pilot will know the regs on that (on either, actually - I'll shut it for now).
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Old April 29, 2009, 11:22 PM   #18
Dust
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I'll talk to him and see what he knows. I don't know if he is willing to do it, just wanted to check legality before asking.
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Old April 29, 2009, 11:48 PM   #19
NavyLT
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Quote:
His profession has a lot to do with it. He has the ability to pick up a gun, and travel across several state lines in a single day. I am wondering what laws would apply to pilots, being that they travel all over the country/world. I would like to ask him to pick up something in another state and bring it back, instead of having to register the purchase with the government and pay to ship it. Put in in a case, with the gun unloaded.disabled, and checked as baggage, what problems would he have flying within the US?
Quote:
I'll talk to him and see what he knows. I don't know if he is willing to do it, just wanted to check legality before asking.
So, are you asking him to purchase a rifle for you and bring it back to deliver to you?
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Old April 30, 2009, 01:44 AM   #20
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Hmmm. A pilot huh. So...you're someone who piles in from one place to another.
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Old April 30, 2009, 06:34 AM   #21
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I think we've all of a sudden stepped deep into a lot of stuff

....
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Old April 30, 2009, 10:01 AM   #22
carguychris
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Quote:
I would like to ask him to pick up something in another state and bring it back, instead of having to register the purchase with the government and pay to ship it.
Doing so would constitute a straw purchase. Your pilot friend would be lying on Question 11a of Form 4473, which is a felony violation of federal law.

In my earlier posts, I thought you were the pilot. Regardless of whether he flies with it or not, asking your friend to buy a gun for you is clearly illegal unless he gives you the gun as a gift and receives absolutely no compensation of any kind in return.

Also, just FYI, the Form 4473 and the NICS check are not a form of government registration. The FFL normally keeps the 4473s and no records are kept of the NICS checks after they're done.
Quote:
I think we've all of a sudden stepped deep into a lot of stuff
Yeah, what he/she said.
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Old April 30, 2009, 02:13 PM   #23
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Multiple felonies would be committed if the pilot bought the gun out of state on behalf of the OP. It would be a straw purchase - period. It does not matter if the final recipient of the gun was legal to purchase/possess that gun or not. So that would be felony number 1 comitted by the pilot.

Felony #2 would be the OP aiding and abetting the pilot making the straw purchase.

Felony #3 would be the OP actually obtaining the gun from an out of source not exempted by 18 USC 922 (b)(3), via using a middle man to obtain that gun.

Felony #4 would be the Pilot aiding and abetting the OP in his obtaining a gun from an out of state source illegally.

I would be willing to bet $100 against a doughnut that the pilot would lose his commercial pilot's license.

Even if he did not lose his license, I would bet that transportation of personal weapons by pilots (other than for official duty), except MAYBE in checked baggage, would be against airline policy and get him fired.

Now that apparently it appears as if Dust wants the pilot to buy him a gun from out of state, that, of course, puts everything in new light. Of course, Dust wasn't going to be right up front at the beginning and say so.
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Old May 6, 2009, 08:51 AM   #24
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what about looking at it this way... and I'm sure there is some kind of

lawyering that will cause it not to work...

I send you the money for the gun... the 'Pilot' flies to your state and picks up the gun with proper documentation (What my FFL will require) ... he or she is now the 'common carrier' and they take it back to my state where I or they deliver it to my FFL for the transfer to me....

I know this does not meet the needs or question of the original poster... but is there some kind of rule that says out of state purchases have to be shipped / transported via UPS/ Fed ex or USPS? Why can't a 'citizen' do the transport?
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Old May 6, 2009, 01:52 PM   #25
NavyLT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blume357
lawyering that will cause it not to work...

I send you the money for the gun... the 'Pilot' flies to your state and picks up the gun with proper documentation (What my FFL will require) ... he or she is now the 'common carrier' and they take it back to my state where I or they deliver it to my FFL for the transfer to me....

I know this does not meet the needs or question of the original poster... but is there some kind of rule that says out of state purchases have to be shipped / transported via UPS/ Fed ex or USPS? Why can't a 'citizen' do the transport?
Definition of common carrier:
An individual or business that advertises to the public that it is available for hire to transport people or property in exchange for a fee.

A common carrier is legally bound to carry all passengers or freight as long as there is enough space, the fee is paid, and no reasonable grounds to refuse to do so exist. A common carrier that unjustifiably refuses to carry a particular person or cargo may be sued for damages.

The states regulate common carriers engaged in business within their borders. When interstate or foreign transportation is involved, the federal government, by virtue of the Commerce Clause of the Constitution, regulates the activities of such carriers. A common carrier may establish reasonable regulations for the efficient operation and maintenance of its business.
West's Encyclopedia of American Law, edition 2. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc. All rights reserved.

The pilot is not a common carrier. I suppose it would be OK for him to act as a contract carrier, but I would want that contract to be in writing! And it would have to be a private sale, as you pointed out.
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