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Old April 29, 2009, 02:50 PM   #26
David Armstrong
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If you don't like the thread why waste our time and yours posting things on it.
I understand that you have your opinion on it but others of us think differently
Peetzakilla posted a comment that included an issue I felt was worth responding to: "This sort of thread has been brought up before, generally it has encountered a hostility that I find odd."
The next post of mine dealt with another issue I felt was worth responding to, the perception that folks don't want to talk about things because of trauma and such. So rather than a waste of time, my posts were in direct response to a subject of interest to me and a direct response to an issue brought up in another post.
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I think that it is in bad taste that you post things here.
You have no idea how little that concerns me.
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Go post on another thread that you might be interested in.
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that you were the magical internet pixie who determined what everyone else was interested in. If you don't want to read a response, don't read it. Don't try to tell folks who should and should not post on a topic.

I will point out that there is probably nothing that is a greater waste of time than posting about how someone else's post is a waste of time.
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Old April 29, 2009, 02:54 PM   #27
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So far as the legal aspect, I would guess that it would be self-evident that if you are or could be in any form of legal jeopardy then you should keep your mouth shut.
Well, it should be self evident, and I'm confident that it certainly is to you, Peetzakilla, but I'll wager that to many, it isn't.

To wit: a person who, according to Mas Ayoob, was involved in a "good shoot" was nonetheless convicted and sentenced to prison because the prosecution was able to use what he said to the police after the shooting against him in court. Thus, we are advised to not talk to the police after an incident until we have conferred with counsel. There has been a link posted here to a pretty good lecture on the subject.

Similarly, we are advised to not make any statements to the media, and for the same reason.

And so on--any statements that cannot be suppressed as hearsay could be damaging. That could include email or statements in other media.

I'm sure we've all heard those things, but many people might think that those concerns simply go away when the incident seems to have been resolved without charges having been filed or an indictment having been returned.

But--since there is no statute of limitations for murder, it is my lay understanding that the only sure way to know that a "good shoot" involving a justifiable homicide cannot be re-evaluated upon the emergence of new evidence is a trial and acquittal. I do not know the limits on a case that may have involved a shooting or just the production of a weapon but no death.

Nor do I know the limitations on civil remedies.

I just know to be very careful, and I think that's worth sharing.

I agree with the OP and with Creature that real accounts can be enlightening, and toward that end I read books on the subject. I have also learned from postings here, but none have involved a "shoot-out." I would not want anyone to put himself or herself in danger because of not knowing the pitfalls, however.

Earlier, the OP asked if I would mind relating three incidents I've been involved in. I do not mind.

In 1964, when I was home alone, a man began attempting to break through the kitchen door. The speed and violence were such that calling the police was out of the question. I started to run out through the front but I realized he would have access to my gun rack, which was not properly secured. I grabbed a revolver and tapped on the glass of a small window with it. He took off. My take on lessons learned? (1) Have the weapon readily available (which I did), and (2) call the police immediately (which I stupidly did not).

Four years later, my mother let a woman into the house to use the telephone after her car had run empty. I heard a scuffle downstairs, grabbed a Smith & Wesson 9mm, and slipped down quietly, staying out of sight. A man had followed the woman into the house. After he had knocked both women down (no potential for a hostage situation then) and announced his intention to kill them, I showed the weapon, said some things that changed his mind, and ordered him out. My take on lessons learned? (1) Don't let strangers into the house, and (2) report the incident to the police (I was dissuaded at the time).

Some time after that I was in a cabin in Colorado far from any town. No phone (or pool, or pets).

You can see Black Angus cattle by starlight up there in the mountains at night, and on this night there was a full moon. I heard someone jimmying the back door with something, and then a side window, and then another window, and then another. I could see his silhouette through the curtains. He finally turned his attention to the front door and gained entry. The bright moonlight through the open door and the windows may have even given him a view of the rifling in my Colt SAA revolver in .45 Colt. Hippie, very stoned, naked except for a peace medallion and a headband--I'll never forget watching him run away toward a moraine. Lesson: Don't cock a revolver unless you are going to fire! Dumb! I had wanted to make sure I was ready, and did not consider the risks. And maybe I had heard the sound ("C-O-L-T") in too many movies.

Perhaps the overarching lesson is that one should not count SD shootings as a measure of the effectiveness or value of civilian gun ownership. I never fired a shot, but had I not been armed, these outcomes would not have been reported here!
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Old April 29, 2009, 03:12 PM   #28
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Great post Marksman !!

I too hope that in ANY situation that I may need to draw that the realization that I have a firearm and that I nor anyone around me totally defenseless will be enough to dissuade a would be perpetrator. ( Best case scenario )

As a matter of fact , I ask my GF to keep her nightstand gun loaded but with one not in the chamber , so that in the event she hears someone enter, she can announce " I HAVE A GUIN AND AM CALLING THE POLICE " while also racking the slide so that any intruder will hopefully hear the sound and know she is not making empty threats...

Although ... she has a huge Weimaraner ( damn that's hard to spell ) dog and a little yappy toy fox terrier that will give plenty of head notice ( they bark at the slightest noises or smells )... and the more I think about it , the less likely an attacker would even be able to hear her over the dogs barking...


I'm glad you didn't shoot the naked hippy ...

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Old April 29, 2009, 04:12 PM   #29
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But--since there is no statute of limitations for murder, it is my lay understanding that the only sure way to know that a "good shoot" involving a justifiable homicide cannot be re-evaluated upon the emergence of new evidence is a trial and acquittal. I do not know the limits on a case that may have involved a shooting or just the production of a weapon but no death.

Nor do I know the limitations on civil remedies.

I just know to be very careful, and I think that's worth sharing.

I agree with the OP and with Creature that real accounts can be enlightening, and toward that end I read books on the subject. I have also learned from postings here, but none have involved a "shoot-out." I would not want anyone to put himself or herself in danger because of not knowing the pitfalls, however.
If someone chooses to post their experiences, so what? We are all big kids here. If a person chooses to reply, then we should read it and learn from their experience. It is not in our realm of responsibility to caution him or her on the possible legal ramifications of doing so.
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Old April 29, 2009, 04:50 PM   #30
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If someone chooses to post their experiences, so what? We are all big kids here. If a person chooses to reply, then we should read it and learn from their experience. It is not in our realm of responsibility to caution him or her on the possible legal ramifications of doing so.
I'm afraid I cannot agree with that sentiment. If I happen to have learned something through experience or otherwise--how to expose a photograph in certain light, how to cast a lure, how to breathe when shooting a rifle off-hand, what neighborhoods might best be avoided, how to get from one place to another in rush hour, or how to avoid unwittingly creating unfavorable evidence,I believe it altogether proper to share it.

If you choose to not help your fellow man, that is your decision. It is not mine.

Wasn't the man Mas referred to, who was imprisoned for homicide, a "big kid"? Might he not have benefitted from some help before the fact?

You would "read it and learn from his experience", but not offer your own? I do not understand that point of view at all.
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Old April 29, 2009, 04:53 PM   #31
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So you would rather censor and silence your fellow forum members?...for their own good?

If they want to share their experiences, then they should be able to share...unmolested.
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Old April 29, 2009, 05:09 PM   #32
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Is there a SoL on RICO? Not everyone was a Military, LEO or armored car guard...
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Old April 29, 2009, 05:11 PM   #33
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So you would rather censor and silence your fellow forum members?...for their own good?
Absolutely not! I choose to censor or silence no one. I simply believe that everyone should know in advance the possible ramifications of discussing or putting to paper certain kinds of things except in the context of privileged legal communications. Mas Ayoob refers to the subject (the dangers of internet postings) in some of his books, along with what to say to the police and what not to say, and along with advice to avoid the media. Not everyone has read them. Also, it may not be obvious to everyone that that "curtain" may not magically lift except in the case of a trial.

By the way, this extends far beyond the subject of self defense. People have lost employment, been subjected to investigations and trials, lost judgments, and have even served time simply because of what they said to whom, wrote down, or sent electronically. That does not always mean that they were necessarily guilty of anything--it just means that there was evidence that may have seemed to indicate as much, or that cast doubt on their credibility, at least when taken out of context.

Of course, I'm sure you know all of that.

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If they want to share their experiences, then they should be able to share...unmolested.
Unmolested?
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Old April 29, 2009, 05:45 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by OldMarksman
Mas Ayoob refers to the subject (the dangers of internet postings) in some of his books, along with what to say to the police and what not to say, and along with advice to avoid the media. Not everyone has read them. Also, it may not be obvious to everyone that that "curtain" may not magically lift except in the case of a trial.
And he is right. A security guard around here is going through a civil law suit right now because he shot a fellow (apparently a legal shoot) but went on a Forum (I hope not here) and shot his mouth off and they are using what he said on there in the case against him. Every single post I make on here I make with the idea that it will be in the NY Times tomorrow and it may be!
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Old April 29, 2009, 06:19 PM   #35
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So you would rather censor and silence your fellow forum members?...for their own good?
Offering suggestions and giving advice does not constitute censoring anyone, and I believe the only people that can silence forum members are the mods and staff.
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If they want to share their experiences, then they should be able to share...unmolested.
They are able to share, but any posts on an open forum become subject to and available for "molestation". Which is why some folks don't like to post some things.
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Old April 29, 2009, 06:48 PM   #36
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Long time ago, on our honeymoon, my wife and I were in the Virgin Islands. We were in Charotte. Walking in one of the ondoor malls. Well, a purse snatcher snatched a womans purse behind us and ran past. My wife, pointed at him and said, "go".

So, dummy me, threw off my hat and glasses and ran after him. In front of him a guy grabed him in a hug. I got up there and put on a wrist lock on his free hand. Between both of us he went down, tried to get up, and then stayed down. A rather large Virgin Island cop (read overweight) came by and cuffed him. My wife, who saw the snatcher throw the purse down, retrieved it and give it back to the woman. He never threw a punch, and I suspect he knew if he did that he would be in more trouble legal wise.

BTW they had Glocks back in the VI. And us tourist have zero. No pepper spray, no knives, no nothing.

Yes it happed fast. So fast I didn't even think of things like, what if he has a knife? I really didn't have time to think of it was 'right' or if it was safe or not. Just ran and grabbed.

And yes, he could have had a knife and stabbed the other guy, and as he fell I'd have been alone with a rather tall crazed crook with a knife and me having him in a wrist lock (but NOT head lock or any serious way to keep him from using that knife.)

People here would have read about a newly wed who was stabbed to death on his honnymoon has he confronted a purse snatcher.... and I have no doubt that has happend before.

The thing I remember most is I did the basics without thinking. If I had of had no training I guess I would have stood there and grabbed a leg or something.

So after that, I spend much more time on SD than on the 'art' of the martial arts.

That was way back in '92!
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Old April 29, 2009, 07:09 PM   #37
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Well at the risk of being accosted for sharing my experiance I will proceed with my story any how.
I learned one thing from my incident, even if you didn't need to pull the trigger call the police when you are in the right.
when I was 22 or 23 I was stuck at home for several months after a surgery, My truck was parked at my parents house being that I could not drive it. and my wife had left for work so there was no vehicle in our parking spots outside our apartment. It was probably about 6:30 in the morning and I had just got off the phone with my wife when I heard our front door open. I knew it wasn't my wife and she was the only other person that had a key aside from the apartment managment. I had several pins and a plate in my leg and of course had moments before tossed the phone out of reach, so I got out of my lazy boy as quick as I could muster (which was not quick) and picked up my carry piece which was not far away and before I could even consider getting the phone, our bedroom door opened and there was the maintance drunk holding a pint looking just as suprised to see me as I was to see him. as he was trying to stammer out a explanation, I trained my gun on him and managed something to the tune of "get the &*^^% out of my apartment, and he did fast. I then picked up the phone (and here is the part I regret) and decided not to call the police. I was still pretty young and not that confident in my rights, I was worried that I would be held at fault for a couple of reasons. 1) he used a key to get in. 2) I was on pain killers at the time. 3)I was young, tattooed and thought that would be held against me.

when the apartments leasing office opened at 8 or 9 I got my walker out (proud moment, Iknow) and dragged my but down there to raise hell.
they were shocked, sorry sorry sorry...... there was no maintance schedueled... sorry sorry sorry and so on. they told me they would check into it. I am sure that the guy must have still been sauced when they caught up to him because I never saw him again.
but boy do I regret not calling the police, I was in the right and knew it, but still I was worried. I hope I never have the oppurtunity to make that mistake again, but I can tell you this I will not make that mistake again.
for what its worth I hope telling this story helps someone else make the right decision.
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Old April 29, 2009, 07:35 PM   #38
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I hope I never have the oppurtunity to make that mistake again...
Also, always have a keyless deadbolt if you rent!! It's required by law in Texas, and I always have mine bolted when I am home. I never want to be disturbed by a landlord/maintenance person - either intentionally or otherwise! It might be a very dangerous encounter.
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Old April 29, 2009, 07:39 PM   #39
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and thats the sads part, I did have a deadbolt but after my wife left I was too lazy to drag my temporarily crippeled but over to lock it.
lesson learned
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Old April 29, 2009, 07:41 PM   #40
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Ohh, I didn't think of that Sorry, dude!
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Old April 29, 2009, 07:42 PM   #41
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no I was capable, just lazy
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Old April 29, 2009, 08:20 PM   #42
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House
Thanks for sharing & staying on subject.
I was hurt a few months back and never considered being armed in my house at the time. Of course I have two large dogs. But next time it will be closer at hand.
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Old April 29, 2009, 09:15 PM   #43
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Every single post I make on here I make with the idea that it will be in the NY Times tomorrow and it may be!
Tennessee, that's an excellent way to look at it. We were told the same thing repeatedly when I was in corporate life. And for some people, it proved to be true.

Of course, an ill-considered post may not ultimately put the poster at risk; it could, however, give ammo to the antis.

Quote:
Well at the risk of being accosted for sharing my experiance I will proceed with my story any how.
House, your story sounds like some of mine--the presence of the gun prevented trouble. no shots were fired, trouble was avoided, and we should have called the police.

I don't see that you had a choice, and I can't for the life of me see any reason for anyone "accosting" you for sharing.
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Old April 29, 2009, 09:30 PM   #44
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People who know me already know that I've been through too many of these incidents. I spent 19 months with the paratroopers in Viet Nam. In those days every single day somebody in my battalion was exchanging shots with the enemy. You can actually grow numb to the sound of gunfire, bullets whizzing by, helicopters beating the air into submission and the whang of artillery fire. You also find yourself in some very unusual situations too.

One night I was part of a recon team that was running an ambush a couple of hundred yards from an American position. Sometime after midnight a firefight erupted between some V.C. and the American position that we were near. As a result of that conflict all six of us on the recon/ambush team found ourselves tucked down into some holes in the ground as both red and green tracers arced through the night sky directly over our heads. None of us on the team got hurt but that was one hell of a fireworks display we saw that night.

So the amount of gunfights and such depends on where you live, what you've done in the past, the job you hire on to do. Some of us have had the high number of shootings but most of us just don't want to talk about them a whole lot.
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Old April 29, 2009, 09:46 PM   #45
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I was involved in a scenario in Atlanta where I had to draw. No shots were fired.

It was mid-April of last year. I was moving back down from NW Georgia to the college town of Statesboro near Savannah. I had loaded up my band new car, and was four months post-op from having most of my lumbar fused (L3-S1). I had just that week completed my last physical therapy, and, as any college kid would be, had my car loaded down with 90% of everything I owned at the time. I had gotten a 24oz. cup of coffee before I got on the highway, and by the time I hit Atlanta, my eyeballs were floating.

I was taking I-285 (the Atlanta bypass) to go around the usually horrible traffic found on I-75. It was longer, but usually quicker and less hectic. As I said, I had to pee like a racehorse. I pulled off on an exit and whipped into a parking spot on the front, right-hand corner of the convenience store. I was the only car in the parking lot and no one was on the pumps (it was about 9 in the morning on a Sunday).

There was a payphone on the corner which I had parked, and a woman was standing in front of it. I stepped out, and she politely asked me for 50 cents to use the payphone. I had it to spare, and didn't really mind. Besides, there was a cold front in the area that had brought a cold, misty rain.

I started digging in my pockets when her buddy, an African-American male, started running towards us from around the other corner of the building. I glanced over in time to see him jump off the curb onto the pavement while pulling something out of his pocket. He was running towards me, and she was backing up. I put my hand on the grip of a still concealed S&W 66-2 with a 4"bll in a Fobus paddle holster under my windbreaker. He pulled his hand out and whipped open a small tactical folder. I don't even remember drawing, but I whipped it out, pulled the hammer back, and had my finger on the trigger guard.

He froze, dropped the knife, and lost control of his bladder at the same time. His baggy, bright red sweatpants had a growing dark red spot. The woman looked at him, looked at me, then back at him. He looked at her, then back at me. I told him to slowly pick up the knife and put it back up. He did, and I reholstered my revolver. I threw the 50 cents at the woman and said "God bless. Y'all have a nice day." I walked in the store after making sure they walked off and making note of where they went. I asked the clerk, who was on the phone, if he had seen what just happened. "What?" was his response. He had been iting down yacking on the phone behind the counter. Missed the whole damn thing. No cameras out front either. I went and used the bathroom as I was about to wet my own pants.

Never called the cops. I remember what they look like to this day. In a way, I regret not calling the police. Hopefully he learned his lesson.

Now, before anyone says I shouldn't have cocked the hammer (which in hindsight may have been a no-no), keep in mind what condition I was in. I had just recovered form a 5 hour surgery fixing my lumbar. The three disks not removed were decompressed and had a laminectomy performed around them. My neurosurgeon said something like this would have taken me 9-12 months to recover from if I was 40. My back may have been strong enough to stop PT and move back, but it was not strong enough to have someone stab and/or tackle me. Just glad I'm okay.
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Old April 29, 2009, 09:56 PM   #46
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Great story, Hunley!

You had had a pint and a half of coffee, and it was he who, uh, lost control.

Well, as they say, it was you or him!

I think we really have to train ourselves to not cock the hammer and to shoot double action. Frankly, that was new to me when I took the CCW class last summer. At least you had your finger on the guard.

That's another one of those no-shots-fired events where having the gun proved crucial.
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Old April 29, 2009, 10:08 PM   #47
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Marksman , While again I respect and understand your views ....


Quote:
If you choose to not help your fellow man, that is your decision. It is not mine.

This is a decision of the poster ... weather to help his fellow man by sharing his experiences.... It is up to us to as the readers to read them and try to understand them and put them into practice. To try and better understand the real life emotions and scenarios that we may not have otherwise expected or planed on.


I created this thread in the hopes that others (my fellow men ) may help me and others to better prepare and understand what to expect in given situations... It is often said " The likely hood of you ever having to draw your gun is so rare ..... " and while this may be true , I would like to be better educated in how to handle the situations where it IS necessary and how others handled it... to learn from their mistakes or to follow their lead... ( as is also often said) " A wise man learns from the mistakes of others "



For the posters that have given their experiences and information , I thank you , each one has given me another perspective to look at situations and has better ARMED me with knowledge of the possibilities .... I hope to see me more following this post.
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Old April 29, 2009, 10:15 PM   #48
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Hunley , Thank you also for that .... Between you , Marksman and others I have seen a few replies that CONFIRM the need to carry a weapon ... Thankfully with no shots fired , the presence of a weapon for self defense ( under 2nd right ) has avoided a very dangerous situation.



Please , continue to share your stories !!
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Old April 30, 2009, 10:03 AM   #49
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Also, always have a keyless deadbolt if you rent!! It's required by law in Texas, and I always have mine bolted when I am home.
It can be illegal in other places. I used to own rental property in NY state, the landlord must be able to gain access to the apartment in an emergency. Keyless deadbolts or others locks they cannot open are a no-no. (At least they were 4 or 5 years ago.)
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Old April 30, 2009, 10:54 AM   #50
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This is a valid thread and a valid question, completely in line with Tactics and Training. For many who have been involved in shootings, its hard to talk about. This group involves me. I was involved in a shooting once while working plane clothes at a military sponcered concert that was open to the public. Like an earlier poster said:

One time while I was in le & lets just say we went home

+1

I shed teers for a man that tried to kill my shipmate that night.


Bottom line, give only the information that you are comfortable giving. No one says you have to answer.
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