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Old May 2, 2009, 12:52 PM   #26
Ricky B
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Quote:
Think of it this way, you must have it locked because it's not being carried openly and unloaded.
I hope this helps.
The light bulb has gone off! I understand better what you've been saying.

I was focused on the fact that 12025 mostly addresses carrying in vehicle (subsections (1) and (3)), but subsection (2) (which I had not focused on) also addresses carrying on the person. And carrying a handgun in a hand-held container could well be considered concealed on the person.

Therefore 12026.1 could be read to mean that subsection (1) of 12026.1 allows concealed carrying in a vehicle (otherwise prohibited by subsection (1) of 12025) and that subsection (2) of 12026.1 allows concealed carrying on the person (otherwise prohibited by subsection (2) of 12025) as long as the concealed carrying on the person is limited to "to or from" the vehicle in a locked box.

I like that reading better. Thanks.
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Old May 3, 2009, 10:50 AM   #27
EOD Guy
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While Califiornia law is your main concern, don't forget Federal law. The Federal Gun Free Schools Act requires that all firearms, rifles and shotguns included, must be in a locked container or rack when traveling within 1000 ft of a school.
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Old May 3, 2009, 01:08 PM   #28
maestro pistolero
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While Califiornia law is your main concern, don't forget Federal law. The Federal Gun Free Schools Act requires that all firearms, rifles and shotguns included, must be in a locked container or rack when traveling within 1000 ft of a school.
I was unaware that long guns needed to be locked in a school zone. Cite please?

Last edited by maestro pistolero; May 3, 2009 at 09:53 PM.
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Old May 3, 2009, 01:48 PM   #29
Ricky B
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Long guns and school zones and federal law

The cite is 18 USC §922(q).

Here is the text (as of 2007). I have added some formatting to make it easier to read:

(1) The Congress finds and declares that -
(A) crime, particularly crime involving drugs and guns, is a pervasive, nationwide problem;
(B) crime at the local level is exacerbated by the interstate movement of drugs, guns, and criminal gangs;
(C) firearms and ammunition move easily in interstate commerce and have been found in increasing numbers in and around schools, as documented in numerous hearings in both the Committee on the Judiciary (!3) the House of Representatives and the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate;
(D) in fact, even before the sale of a firearm, the gun, its component parts, ammunition, and the raw materials from which they are made have considerably moved in interstate commerce;
(E) while criminals freely move from State to State, ordinary citizens and foreign visitors may fear to travel to or through certain parts of the country due to concern about violent crime and gun violence, and parents may decline to send their children to school for the same reason;
(F) the occurrence of violent crime in school zones has resulted in a decline in the quality of education in our country;
(G) this decline in the quality of education has an adverse impact on interstate commerce and the foreign commerce of the United States;
(H) States, localities, and school systems find it almost impossible to handle gun-related crime by themselves - even States, localities, and school systems that have made strong efforts to prevent, detect, and punish gun-related crime find their efforts unavailing due in part to the failure or inability of other States or localities to take strong measures; and
(I) the Congress has the power, under the interstate commerce clause and other provisions of the Constitution, to enact measures to ensure the integrity and safety of the Nation's schools by enactment of this subsection.
(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm -
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is -
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container
, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual whiletraversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.
(3)
(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), it shall be unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the person knows is a school zone.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the discharge of a firearm-
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) as part of a program approved by a school in the school zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;
(iii) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; or
(iv) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity.
(4) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as preempting or preventing a State or local government from enacting a statute establishing gun free school zones as provided in this subsection.

18 USC §921(a) provides:

(25) The term "school zone" means -

(A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or

(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.

(26) The term "school" means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.

More in a follow up post.

Last edited by Ricky B; May 3, 2009 at 01:49 PM. Reason: Add bolding
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Old May 3, 2009, 01:54 PM   #30
Ricky B
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US v. Lopez

In a rare limitation on congress's power, the U.S. Supreme Court in 1995 declared the federal gun-free school zone law unconstitutional in U.S. v. Lopez.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Lopez

California's law, clearly modeled on the federal law, was passed in 1995.

All is not clear, however, because the statute as invalidated by the court did not contain the limitation that now appears in the statute, namely, that the firearm have "moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce." I doubt that the current court would change its opinion based on the amendment, particularly in light of its decision in United States v. Morrison, 529 U.S. 598 (2000), but technically speaking the current statute is not the one that the court invalidated in Lopez.

And new justices appointed by Pres. Obama might not see things the same way as the majority did in 1995.

Therefore I think that complying with the federal law by keeping it in a locked container is advisable. State law already requires it to be unloaded.
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Old May 3, 2009, 02:13 PM   #31
Ricky B
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California's Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995

Formatting is mine. ((f)(2)(B) should be indented further)

Penal Code §626.9.

(a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the
Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.

(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person
knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in
paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written
permission of the school district superintendent, his or her
designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as
specified in subdivision (f).

(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm
under any of the following circumstances:
(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private
property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private
property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the
firearm is otherwise lawful.

(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked
container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.


This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in
accordance with state law.

(3) When the person possessing the firearm reasonably believes
that he or she is in grave danger because of circumstances forming
the basis of a current restraining order issued by a court against
another person or persons who has or have been found to pose a threat
to his or her life or safety. This subdivision may not apply when
the circumstances involve a mutual restraining order issued pursuant
to Division 10 (commencing with Section 6200) of the Family Code
absent a factual finding of a specific threat to the person's life or
safety. Upon a trial for violating subdivision (b), the trier of a
fact shall determine whether the defendant was acting out of a
reasonable belief that he or she was in grave danger.

(4) When the person is exempt from the prohibition against
carrying a concealed firearm pursuant to subdivision (b), (d), (e),
or (h) of Section 12027.
(d) Except as provided in subdivision (b), it shall be unlawful
for any person, with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to
discharge, or attempt to discharge, a firearm in a school zone, as
defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e).

The prohibition contained in this subdivision does not apply to
the discharge of a firearm to the extent that the conditions of
paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) are satisfied.

(e) As used in this section, the following definitions shall
apply:
(1) "School zone" means an area in, or on the grounds of, a public
or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1
to 12, inclusive, or within a distance of 1,000 feet from the
grounds of the public or private school.

(2) "Firearm" has the same meaning as that term is given in
Section 12001.

(3) "Locked container" has the same meaning as that term is given
in subdivision (c) of Section 12026.1.

(4) "Concealed firearm" has the same meaning as that term is given
in Sections 12025 and 12026.1.
(f)
(1) Any person who violates subdivision (b) by possessing a
firearm in, or on the grounds of, a public or private school
providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1 to 12, inclusive,
shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three,
or five years.

(2) Any person who violates subdivision (b) by possessing a
firearm within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public
or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1
to 12, inclusive, shall be punished as follows:
(A) By imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or five
years, if any of the following circumstances apply:
(i) If the person previously has been convicted of any felony, or
of any crime made punishable by Chapter 1 (commencing with Section
12000) of Title 2 of Part 4.

(ii) If the person is within a class of persons prohibited from
possessing or acquiring a firearm pursuant to Section 12021 or
12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and
Institutions Code.

(iii) If the firearm is any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person and the offense is
punished as a felony pursuant to Section 12025.
(B) By imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year or
by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or five years,
in all cases other than those specified in subparagraph (A).
(3) Any person who violates subdivision (d) shall be punished by
imprisonment in the state prison for three, five, or seven years.
(g)
(1) Every person convicted under this section for a
misdemeanor violation of subdivision (b) who has been convicted
previously of a misdemeanor offense enumerated in Section 12001.6
shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than
three months, or if probation is granted or if the execution or
imposition of sentence is suspended, it shall be a condition thereof
that he or she be imprisoned in a county jail for not less than three
months.

(2) Every person convicted under this section of a felony
violation of subdivision (b) or (d) who has been convicted previously
of a misdemeanor offense enumerated in Section 12001.6, if probation
is granted or if the execution of sentence is suspended, it shall be
a condition thereof that he or she be imprisoned in a county jail
for not less than three months.

(3) Every person convicted under this section for a felony
violation of subdivision (b) or (d) who has been convicted previously
of any felony, or of any crime made punishable by Chapter 1
(commencing with Section 12000) of Title 2 of Part 4, if probation is
granted or if the execution or imposition of sentence is suspended,
it shall be a condition thereof that he or she be imprisoned in a
county jail for not less than three months.

(4) The court shall apply the three-month minimum sentence
specified in this subdivision, except in unusual cases where the
interests of justice would best be served by granting probation or
suspending the execution or imposition of sentence without the
minimum imprisonment required in this subdivision or by granting
probation or suspending the execution or imposition of sentence with
conditions other than those set forth in this subdivision, in which
case the court shall specify on the record and shall enter on the
minutes the circumstances indicating that the interests of justice
would best be served by this disposition.
(h) Notwithstanding Section 12026, any person who brings or
possesses a loaded firearm upon the grounds of a campus of, or
buildings owned or operated for student housing, teaching, research,
or administration by, a public or private university or college, that
are contiguous or are clearly marked university property, unless it
is with the written permission of the university or college
president, his or her designee, or equivalent university or college
authority, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for
two, three, or four years. Notwithstanding subdivision (k), a
university or college shall post a prominent notice at primary
entrances on noncontiguous property stating that firearms are
prohibited on that property pursuant to this subdivision.

(i) Notwithstanding Section 12026, any person who brings or
possesses a firearm upon the grounds of a campus of, or buildings
owned or operated for student housing, teaching, research, or
administration by, a public or private university or college, that
are contiguous or are clearly marked university property, unless it
is with the written permission of the university or college
president, his or her designee, or equivalent university or college
authority, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for
one, two, or three years. Notwithstanding subdivision (k), a
university or college shall post a prominent notice at primary
entrances on noncontiguous property stating that firearms are
prohibited on that property pursuant to this subdivision.

(j) For purposes of this section, a firearm shall be deemed to be
loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of
a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or
attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited
to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the
firearm. A muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when
it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in
the barrel or cylinder.

(k) This section does not require that notice be posted regarding
the proscribed conduct.

(l) This section does not apply to a duly appointed peace officer
as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of
Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the
federal government who is carrying out official duties while in
California, any person summoned by any of these officers to assist in
making arrests or preserving the peace while he or she is actually
engaged in assisting the officer, a member of the military forces of
this state or of the United States who is engaged in the performance
of his or her duties, a person holding a valid license to carry the
firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of
Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4, or an armored vehicle guard, engaged
in the performance of his or her duties, as defined in subdivision
(e) of Section 7521 of the Business and Professions Code.

(m) This section does not apply to a security guard authorized to
carry a loaded firearm pursuant to Section 12031.

(n) This section does not apply to an existing shooting range at
a public or private school or university or college campus.

(o) This section does not apply to an honorably retired peace
officer authorized to carry a concealed or loaded firearm pursuant to
subdivision (a) or (i) of Section 12027 or paragraph (1) or (8) of
subdivision (b) of Section 12031.

Last edited by Ricky B; May 3, 2009 at 02:14 PM. Reason: Add b
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Old May 3, 2009, 02:16 PM   #32
maestro pistolero
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Thanks Ricky B, that's what I thought.
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Old May 3, 2009, 08:23 PM   #33
EOD Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky B


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a rare limitation on congress's power, the U.S. Supreme Court in 1995 declared the federal gun-free school zone law unconstitutional in U.S. v. Lopez.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Lopez

California's law, clearly modeled on the federal law, was passed in 1995.

All is not clear, however, because the statute as invalidated by the court did not contain the limitation that now appears in the statute, namely, that the firearm have "moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce." I doubt that the current court would change its opinion based on the amendment, particularly in light of its decision in United States v. Morrison, 529 U.S. 598 (2000), but technically speaking the current statute is not the one that the court invalidated in Lopez.
You are correct about US vs Lopez, but Congress passed a new law adding the interstate commerce reference. That law has not been challenged and is current law.

I really doubt that anyone would be cited for transporting an unloaded rifle, not in a locked container, through a school zone unless it was an add on to another federal violation such as drug dealing within the school zone.
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Old May 3, 2009, 09:52 PM   #34
maestro pistolero
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Quote:
but Congress passed a new law adding the interstate commerce reference.
I was unaware of that, too. Got a cite?
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Old May 3, 2009, 10:33 PM   #35
Ricky B
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For your convenience, I highlight part of the text of the federal law that I previously quoted:

Quote:
It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
When Lopez was convicted, according to the court, the law "neither regulates a commercial activity nor contains a requirement that the possession be connected in any way to interstate commerce." I assume that the law at the time of the offense did not include an express requirement that the firearm be one that had moved in (or otherwise affect) interstate (or foreign) commerce. After Lopez was convicted, the law was amended.

In a footnote, The Supreme Court in Lopez said:

Quote:
We note that on September 13, 1994, President Clinton signed into law the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, Pub. L. 103-322, 108 Stat. 1796. Section 320904 of that Act, id., at 2125, amends § 922(q) to include congressional findings regarding the effects of firearm possession in and around schools upon interstate and foreign commerce. The Government does not rely upon these subsequent findings as a substitute for the absence of findings in the first instance.
Now that there is a requirement to prove that the firearm has moved in interstate commerce (not hard to do), the law is more closely tied to Congress's power to regulate interstate commerce. But I think that Lopez is still good law, and the technique of prohibiting conduct that is local in nature because an actor uses a product that has moved in interstate commerce is nothing more than an effort by Congress to expand its power beyond what the Constitution allows. It would give Congress a power to regulate local affairs that goes far beyond the power that I think (and has traditionally been thought by most) to be the power granted to Congress by the Constitution. If an unconstitutional law became constitutional by reason of this amendment, what can't Congress regulate?

Notwithstanding that, I still think it's a good idea to comply with the law until it is held unconstitutional or repealed.

Last edited by Ricky B; May 3, 2009 at 10:33 PM. Reason: correct typo
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Old May 3, 2009, 11:04 PM   #36
maestro pistolero
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Thanks, but I thought that was what the SCOTUS struck in 'Lopez', saying that the connection to interstate commerce was tenuous, at best. I'm I confusing another issue? Is this ringing a bell for anyone?

I appreciate the reference.
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Old May 4, 2009, 04:38 AM   #37
Regolith
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Quote:
In California it is always better to error on the side of over doing itnever going there. They no tolerance and very little sense of humor for gun violations.
Fixed that for ya'.
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Old May 5, 2009, 09:31 AM   #38
tba02
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Cal Gun Laws

Transportation of Firearms FAQ's for CA, USA
http://www.calgunlaws.com/index.php/...-firearms.html
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Old May 5, 2009, 12:16 PM   #39
bikerbill
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All this is one of the reasons why I don't live in California any more, and sympathize with those that do, for many reasons ...
__________________
"The gun has been called the great equalizer ... It insures that the people are the equal of their government whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of the governed." --Ronald Reagan
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Old May 6, 2009, 04:32 AM   #40
Doggieman
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Quote:
Transportation of Firearms FAQ's for CA, USA
http://www.calgunlaws.com/index.php/...-firearms.html
I have a major problem with this FAQ "answer," which I believe to be in error:

------------------------------
Can I continually carry a handgun in my car in a locked container other than the utility or glove compartment for self-defense? I do not have a concealed weapons permit.

Written by Administrator
Monday, 29 November 1999 16:00

No. The legal authorization to transport a concealed handgun without a permit unloaded and in a motor vehicle's trunk or a separate locked container in Penal Code Section 12026.1 applies only while going to or from the specific places, and for the specific purposes, identified in Penal Code Section 12026.2 (going hunting, to or from a range, etc.). It is illegal to carry a concealed handgun without a permit for general purposes, such as self defense, even though the firearm is transported in the trunk of a motor vehicle or in a separate locked container. Section 12026.1 is not very clear on this point, but Section 12026.2 is, so it is prudent to read them together. Again, handguns being lawfully transported concealed in a motor vehicle's trunk or in a separate locked container cannot be loaded nor can ammunition be attached to them in any manner.
Last Updated ( Tuesday, 28 April 2009 10:35 )

------------------------------

There is nothing that says that 12026.1 "applies only while going to or from the specific places, and for the specific purposes, identified in Penal Code Section 12026.2." I don't know where they got that.

12026.2 and 12027 are blanket limitations on 12025. They both start out with "Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:" They have nothing to do with 12026.1, they are just poorly numbered.

In fact all those sections are rather poorly drafted, but I'm not understanding where people think that 12026.2 somehow limits 12026.1. There's nothing in either that references the other, and there's nothing in the code other than the numbering that indicates that they have any bearing on one another.

Unless there's a case actually addressing this issue, and I'd love it if someone could point me to it.
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Old May 6, 2009, 04:50 AM   #41
Doggieman
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In fact, from further reading it seems that 12026.2 refers to instances where YOU'RE NOT USING A CAR AT ALL. If all you had was 12026.1, and you wanted to take your gun over to your friend's house across the street, you'd have to walk it to your car, then from your car to your friend's house.

Because 12026.1 only addresses carrying to/from the car and while in the car (or other motor vehicle), people need the exemptions of 12026.2 when they're transporting a gun NOT in a car.
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