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Old April 24, 2009, 08:44 PM   #1
rmocarsky
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.45+P compared to 10mm

Shooters,

How does the .45+P loading compare to the 10mm?

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Old April 24, 2009, 08:47 PM   #2
bald1
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This help?

40 S&W
135gr @ 1190fps
155gr @ 1175fps
165gr @ 1150fps
180gr @ 1000fps

45ACP
165gr @ 1080fps
185gr @ 1000fps
200gr @ 975fps
230gr @ 900fps

45ACP +P
165gr @ 1250fps
185gr @ 1150fps
200gr @ 1050fps
230gr @ 950fps

400 CB
135gr @ 1450fps
155gr @ 1350fps
165gr @ 1300fps

10mm
135 grain @ 1600fps
155 grain @ 1475fps
165 grain @ 1425fps
180 grain @ 1350fps
200 grain @ 1300fps
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Old April 24, 2009, 08:52 PM   #3
rmocarsky
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Sure does bald1 (so am I . . . bald that is)

Seems 10mm still dwarfs the .45, even if in +P.

Thanks

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Old April 24, 2009, 09:00 PM   #4
DarthTedd
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Quote:
10mm
135 grain @ 1600fps
155 grain @ 1475fps
165 grain @ 1425fps
180 grain @ 1350fps
200 grain @ 1300fps
Good nite! That's nuts ...
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Old April 24, 2009, 09:03 PM   #5
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Seems 10mm still dwarfs the .45, even if in +P.
Indeed. 74% more energy in the 165gr, 55% more in 200gr.

That's considerably more than I would have expected.
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Old April 25, 2009, 12:33 AM   #6
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energy is one thing, force is another. do the math, the 45 has more of it. It might be slower, but the weight +velocity is what force is. Not just how fast the bullet goes
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Old April 25, 2009, 12:50 AM   #7
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but the weight +velocity is what force is
weight + velocity isn't any scientific quantity.

Force is 'mass x acceleration' or 'mass x deceleration' depending on which end of the gun you're on.

Force is not generally talked about much in discussions about projectiles because in order to calculate the force applied to the target by a projectile you must know how long it takes the target to stop the projectile and that's not a piece of information that's usually available.

To calculate the Force applied to the target you'd need to calculate the momentum of the projectile (mass x velocity) and divide that by the amount of time it takes the projectile to stop after it initially hits the target.

The two scientific quantities that are generally talked about in the context of firearm performance are kinetic energy and momentum.

Whether you favor momentum or kinetic energy as a measure of ammunition performance, full power 10mm will get the nod over the .45ACP +P
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Old April 25, 2009, 12:54 AM   #8
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energy is one thing, force is another. do the math, the 45 has more of it. It might be slower, but the weight +velocity is what force is. Not just how fast the bullet goes
I think you mean momentum (mass x velocity) versus energy (mass x velocity squared). The thing is, a 200grn 10mm bullet at 1300fps still has both more energy (750 vs. 460) and more momentum (37 vs. 31) than a 230grn .45 bullet at 950fps. Even if you go by the antiquated Taylor Knockout Value, which takes bullet diameter into account, the .45 and 10mm still come out equal (14 for both).

http://www.n4lcd.com/calc/

To reach the power available in a 10mm, you'd have to go to .45 Super which requires slight modification of the gun (changing of the recoil spring or retiming of the pistol depending on who you ask) and different brass than the .45 ACP.
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Old April 25, 2009, 12:56 AM   #9
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energy is one thing, force is another. do the math, the 45 has more of it. It might be slower, but the weight +velocity is what force is. Not just how fast the bullet goes

I will do the math if you learn the physics. Force is NOT weight + velocity.
Mass x velocity is momentum, that might be what you are thinking.

In my opinion, the quantities that matter most are power (rate of energy dump) and impulse.

Energy is nice, but you want the projectile to dump it all into the target, and dump it quickly. Same goes for momentum.
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Old April 25, 2009, 02:38 AM   #10
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Spamanon.

I agree. Been telling folks that same thing for a long to time. If your load is capable of producing 800 Ft/lbs at 50 feet, yet only deposits 50 Ft/lbs on your target and the other 750 go straight through with the bullet, it really doesn't matter, energy that is.
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Old April 25, 2009, 03:24 AM   #11
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So we agree? .45 ACP is better?
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Old April 25, 2009, 09:05 AM   #12
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I don't know if the .45 acp is better, but it is the choice I've made. I like the 10mm, but so far I prefer the .45 acp. I think the 185 +P loads are a wicked, and devistating rounds. I don't put many +P rounds through my guns, but I've always been partial to the slower moving heavy projectiles. I've found the recoil to be about the same shooting 45 +P rounds, compared to the that of the 10mm handguns.
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Old April 25, 2009, 09:07 AM   #13
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energy is one thing, force is another. do the math, the 45 has more of it. It might be slower, but the weight +velocity is what force is. Not just how fast the bullet goes
So, a 200 gr .45acp bullet that's 300fps slower than a 200gr. 10mm bullet has more "force"???? Zounds! I thought Einstein was dead!
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Old April 25, 2009, 09:10 AM   #14
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So we agree? .45 ACP is better?
I'd say we agree that it's more powerful. "Better" is a whole 'nother can o' worms.

Better can include:

1)Ammo Availability
2)Firearms Availability
3)Recoil
4)Capacity
5)Insert favorite criteria

There is unlikely to be anything even resembling a consensus on which is "better".
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Old April 25, 2009, 09:54 AM   #15
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10mm is a great round. So is the 45. Both will do the job if you do yours.

Force, energy, speed, cross sectional density. All that jazz.

With that said. Pick a firearm platform and a caliber that you can shoot well. That you are comfortable with, like an extension of your own hand. 9mm, 40, 45 or 10mm does not matter which if you can't put the lead where you need to put it. I love the 10mm and 45 in the 1911 platform. Love it. But I find that with my 92FS or Sig 228 I can our more lead down range, accurately and faster than I can with a 1911 in 45/10mm.

I prefer the 1911 platform. So I carry my TRP, or KC most of the time. But I DO NOT feel " under armed " with a 9mm. Different strokes. I am currently saving for Wilsons new hi cap 9mm. Then I will have a hi cap 9 in a 1911 platform.
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Old April 25, 2009, 10:11 AM   #16
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weight +velocity is what force is
My high school AP Physics teacher (who was also my wrestling coach) would have made me run suicide sprints till I died for that one.

To me the only thing on paper that paints an accurate picture of a round's stopping power is kinetic energy (KE= one half mass times velocity squared). The amount of energy an object has determines the amount of work (damage) it can do on another object, this is a principle they drill into your head in a high school physics class.

Momentum is kind of a moot point since, mathematically, it is a part of kinetic energy. A bullet may impart its momentum on a target (cause it to move) but just moving a target around isn't going to kill it, it's the actual work that the bullet does (aka energy it loses) while it is inside the target that makes a difference. Long story short: on paper the best way to judge a bullet's stopping power is kinetic energy. However, IMHO, the best way period to tell a bullet's stopping power is to shoot it's optimum HP and FMJ loads through ballistics gel and look at the cavities.

Quote:
I agree. Been telling folks that same thing for a long to time. If your load is capable of producing 800 Ft/lbs at 50 feet, yet only deposits 50 Ft/lbs on your target and the other 750 go straight through with the bullet, it really doesn't matter, energy that is.
\

No arguing with that.
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Old April 25, 2009, 12:38 PM   #17
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I'm with DustMonkey in having picked platforms and calibers I shoot well. Bullet placement is key. So my choices are 45ACP, 400 Cor-Bon, and 9mmP in these JMB handguns (1911 and BHP):

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Old April 25, 2009, 12:40 PM   #18
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Bullet-weight-for-bullet-weight, .45ACPs are not more powerful than 10mms!!
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Old April 25, 2009, 12:52 PM   #19
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C'mon, shoot them side by side with 200 gr. loads. Muzzle blast tells the story. I prefer the big, slow .45 for defense, but how many people hunt animals with them? The 10mm is the most awesome non-magnum ever built.

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Old April 25, 2009, 01:58 PM   #20
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I was trying to use a little humor. I think the .45 is definitely better for personal defense. The 10mm can over penetrate when used on people. I have always considered 10mm a hunting round.
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Old April 25, 2009, 05:05 PM   #21
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C'mon, shoot them side by side with 200 gr. loads. Muzzle blast tells the story. I prefer the big, slow .45 for defense, but how many people hunt animals with them? The 10mm is the most awesome non-magnum ever built.

-7-
I prefer the .45ACP also, for s.d., but was just responding to which is more powerful....45ACP or 10mm???
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Old April 25, 2009, 05:21 PM   #22
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Man... I never knew how nasty the 10mm was. Anyone ever make a carbine chambered for it? Or better yet, an SMG? In a heavier platform the recoil wouldn't matter as much (I guess on full auto it would) and with the added bbl length... man.
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Old April 25, 2009, 05:41 PM   #23
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Yes, HK makes a 10mm SMG and a carbine.
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Old April 25, 2009, 05:56 PM   #24
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Beasley FYI: no reference intended.

Why don't we just shoot them side by side at say--50 yards?

I'll need about 24" of elevation adjustment for my .45.


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Old April 25, 2009, 07:00 PM   #25
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LOL. I don't think you should engage some one in a SD situation that is 50 yards away.
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