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Old April 18, 2009, 10:30 PM   #26
HarrySchell
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"President Bush said yesterday that the United States should work to stop the movement of guns across our southern border into Mexico." http://www.infowars.com/bush-says-am...exico-from-us/ So it would appear the American gun connection statements did not start with Obama. Back in April 2008 "U.S. gun stores and gun shows are the source of more than 90 percent of the weapons being used by Mexico's ruthless drug cartels, according to U.S. and Mexican law enforcement officials." http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4695848&page=1

In 2007 this statement appeared at http://news.newamericamedia.org/news...e4da7f5022104f “We are concerned about the number of weapons coming into Mexico and Central America illegally from the United States,” Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said last month when he was attending a conference in Cuernavaca, south of Mexico City. “There is more that we can do, and we are looking to do, to try and stem the flow of illegal weapons into Mexico.”

Hey I don't like the probable issues with gun control that could affect gun ownership. But I also will not pretend the issue of America and guns getting into Mexico are a pretence that begin with Obama when I can easily find reference going back through the eight years of the last administration.
Bad data is BAD DATA. Decisions made on bad data are usually BAD DECSIONS. That Bush was wrong so Bama can be wrong is idiotic. IMO.

Do you care if good decisions are made or Bama is no less uninformed that Bush?

I thought Bama was about hope, change, transparency, reversing the errors of the past....
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Old April 18, 2009, 10:50 PM   #27
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NO I just care that we are aware that

the 90% nonsense has been around for more than a couple of days and the fact it was around long before Obama was even a presidential candidate. Do you believe Obama sought new data from the ATF for the 90% number or would you expect him to rely on the ATF data being tosses about by former AG Gonzales? Why was there no uprising when Gonzalez made the 90% reference? Or when George made the same references?


I despise the notion that the US is the source of these weapons being used in Mexico. I realy think only a fool believes the cartels can bring pounds of drugs into Mexico but they have to rely on some gun shop in the US for the supply of AK-47s.

Has anyone been in one of these magical gun shops where you can just walk in and buy an unlimited number of fully automatic AK-47s or MAC 10s? Then without any paperwork or required tax stamp (1934 NFA requirement) walk out with the same arms. And all the while no Fed is going to be watching the sale of multiple weapons to a single purchaser.

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Old April 19, 2009, 05:07 AM   #28
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Just a bunch of public mind softening gov`t/media anti-weapon tactics being used to gain political support so this administration can make our gun laws more strict with the blessing of the general public. Nothing more, nothing less. As Obama stated himself(I hope people remember this) "we have current gun laws to stop these so called illegal weapons transactions. Just need to inforce them". We also have drug laws in this country and I hope the Mexican gov`t will help enforce them and keep the flow of drugs from coming across the border. Has to be a two way street. To date, Mexico`s assistance at the border is all but non-existant and IMO will probably stay that way due to the fact that to many Mexican officials and policia are on the take and making more money in one year with the payoffs from the drug cartels than it will take them 4-5 yrs. to make doing their jobs without the payoffs. Also, stands to reason the bloodshed will increase if the legit Mexican authorities start putting pressure to oust the dirty officials. Thats a burden Mexico will have to bare and other than making sure no illegal arms transactions come from the US, no other laws should be put into place affecting US citizens. Just enforce existing laws.

Last edited by shortwave; April 19, 2009 at 11:13 PM.
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Old April 19, 2009, 08:28 AM   #29
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It's not Obammy's fault. He just says what the teleprompter tells him to, and right now the teleprompter want's gun control.
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Old April 19, 2009, 08:40 AM   #30
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He just says what the teleprompter tells him to, and right now the teleprompter want's gun control.
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Old April 19, 2009, 10:47 AM   #31
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More information, from David Hardy

This is a drive -by, just adding an article which sheds more information on the issue, I believe.

See:http://armsandthelaw.com for the original:

More thoughts on guns and Mexico and cartels
Posted by David Hardy · 18 April 2009 06:17 PM
As noted earlier, everyone from President Obama to the Mexican ambassador is claiming that 90%, or even 95% of criminal guns recovered in Mexico come from the US. The fact that 90% of guns submitted to ATF for tracing trace to the US, but the Mexican government only submits guns that it thinks came from the US; a while back FoxNews ran the numbers and concluded that only 17% of guns recovered in Mexico came from the US. Now Factcheck.org reruns the numbers and concludes it's more like 34%, still a minority.

One mystery remains: the difference between the two sets of numbers is explained as the smaller one reflect guns that could be traced to a particular State, the larger one includes those that couldn't be. A successful ATF trace at the very minimum tracks it to retail dealer, thus you know the State. If they couldn't report the State, it probably means an unsuccessful trace -- we know that Colt made it in the US, but can't trace it to the dealer. Unsuccessful traces are disproportionately traces of sales long ago -- those made before the 1968 GCA are about hopeless, and even subsequent to that, the farther back in time, the more likely records have been misplaced.

Which would suggest, at least, that about half of the traces relate to very old gun transfers. Say a gun was sold at retail in 1960, has gone thru 2-3 legit owners since then, a burglar steals it and fences it across the border -- that'd go down as a gun "traced to an American source," and be portrayed as if it was a straw man sale or crooked dealer.

The other possibility is that guns not traced to sale in a particular State include guns not sold in the US at all, but exported. In 2007, American manufacturers exported 10,530 handguns and rifles to the Mexican Ministry of Defense. Think the cartels have enough money to get their hands on as many as they want?
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Old April 24, 2009, 03:33 AM   #32
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Is he out of touch? Is he unable to learn any fact that doesn't support what he wants to do? Stupid? Unbalanced? Willing to lie blatantly if he thinks he will advance his agenda? Thinks no one notices when he lies through his teeth or is blatantly and clearly doesn't know the facts of an issue?
1. Yes!
2. Facts should never affect your agenda.
3. Stupid? In my view...yes.
4. He is "balanced" in a way that scares me me. He is his own fulcrum point. This not good.
5. You didn't read the article about his pathological narcissism did you?
6. Doesn't care about (and hates) those who know the truth and had 55% of the voters convinced he was the answer to their prayers. Sadness all around. Most who voted for him had no concept of logic or a willingness to deal with the facts.

Last edited by cold dead hands; April 24, 2009 at 03:40 AM.
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Old April 24, 2009, 04:18 PM   #33
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6. Doesn't care about (and hates) those who know the truth and had 55% of the voters convinced he was the answer to their prayers. Sadness all around. Most who voted for him had no concept of logic or a willingness to deal with the facts.
[citation needed]
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Old April 24, 2009, 09:35 PM   #34
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i know this is a firearms forum, but we sometimes have to stop, sit back, and think of a larger picture...all of these problems have very little to do with the firearms, they are nothing more than one tool in a very large toolbox...

drugs and illegal aliens... stop the drug use and illegal immigration, 95% of US issues just simply go away, yet the gov (and us) just will not do any thing about it...we can empower an entire continent to over throw a bunch of idiots over seas costing thousands of lives, but we cant tackle this?

but than again i dont expect it from our "leader" who has vested part of his past in the very things we should be fighting against, duh?....................

"Albert Einstein:

Any power must be an enemy of mankind which enslaves the individual by terror and force, whether it arises under the Fascist or the Communist flag. All that is valuable in human society depends upon the opportunity for development accorded to the individual.

statement, England, September 15, 1933"

"All that is valuable in human society depends upon the opportunity for development accorded to the individual."- now that is what i am talking about, we dont get there by sucking the life blood out of good hard working people and then apologizing to the world "that we americans suck"....

which is what has been happening
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Old April 24, 2009, 11:05 PM   #35
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The other possibility is that guns not traced to sale in a particular State include guns not sold in the US at all, but exported. In 2007, American manufacturers exported 10,530 handguns and rifles to the Mexican Ministry of Defense.
In a country known the world over for having problems with corruption, and a country that has had thousands of deserters from their armed forces in recent years, might not individuals in the Mexican govt itself be the major supplier (although illegally) of US made guns to the cartels?

Also consider the number of guns stolen in the US that are "exported" to Mexico. Sure, they are bought from US gunshops and at gunshows. Bought by us, legally, but then stolen and sent south. Somehow, it just doesn't seem possible that nearly all the guns (90%) in the hands of the cartels were bought by strawmen from US gunshops. A few, sure. Its a crime, and it happens. But so many? I doubt it, strongly.

I'm used to being lied to, I just like it less when the lies are so blatantly obvious.

And it doesn't matter if this was started under Bush, or Eisenhower. Obama's people are the ones pushing it today!
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Old April 25, 2009, 07:18 AM   #36
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"Intellectual activity is a danger to the building of character”
“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it”
“Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play.”
“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over”
Joseph Goebbels quotes

44 AMP says:
Quote:
I'm used to being lied to, I just like it less when the lies are so blatantly obvious.
Maybe you just recognize THIS type of lie(the 90% number), and see it as mantra. Somebody doesn't think you are capable of critical thinking.
It's a new day comrade, but i don't think elections will do them any favors, and hopefully we can go back to the old lies of the right...far less insiduous toward the individual.
Maybe the stat has been around a while, but i don't remember it being used daily, and not for the current reasons. I guess a fence would be too much to ask.
*stupid me.
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Last edited by alloy; April 25, 2009 at 07:57 AM. Reason: *inserted smilie for clarity.
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Old April 25, 2009, 08:51 AM   #37
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Isn't the United States the #1 manufacturer of firearms in the world? Don't we sell tons of firearms to Mexico, its Government, Military, and citizens legally every year??? Why are we supposed to buy the assumption that all these guns are illegally smuggled assault weapons? As usual, Obama is lying to push his agenda to disarm us filthy peasants.
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Old April 25, 2009, 12:25 PM   #38
Enoy21
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I try and keep my views open and not one sided....

To me , ( and no I did not vote Obahma , nor am I at all for any kind of gun control..... )

He is trying to politically say " We want Mexican drugs out of our country , Mexico want's american guns out of theirs " So he's policitally accepting some responsibility for Mexico's concerns while trying to accomplish our own goals against drugs....


Atleast that is how I read that quote.... As to legitimacy of the claim ? I can't say ...
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Old April 27, 2009, 07:35 AM   #39
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Somehow, it just doesn't seem possible that nearly all the guns (90%) in the hands of the cartels were bought by strawmen from US gunshops.
When I read the I can't help but visualize a scene from Blazing Saddles. The one where all the "bad guys" are standing in line signing up. I can see that little desk sitting on the US/Mexico border, with Slim Pickens selling AWs to Mexican cartel members dressed as Nazi's, KKKs, etc.
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Old April 28, 2009, 01:11 PM   #40
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HA HA HA. I like that. Very fitting.

We should fire back that all the crime in the US perpetrated by Mexicans can surely be traced back to Mexico and when they do something about that we will do something about their problems. BUT we all know the only reason this is even coming up is to drum up political support for a new "assault weapons" ban in the US.
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Old April 28, 2009, 02:50 PM   #41
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jrm posted:
Quote:
When I read the I can't help but visualize a scene from Blazing Saddles. The one where all the "bad guys" are standing in line signing up. I can see that little desk sitting on the US/Mexico border, with Slim Pickens selling AWs to Mexican cartel members dressed as Nazi's, KKKs, etc.
Good one jrm. Maybe we could steal another scene from Blazing Saddles and set up a toll both at the border and charge 10 cents to come in. That way, they'd have to go back to town and get a $hitload of dimes. Slim Pickens was so good in that movie. "Anyone got a dime?" Shoot. Someone's gonna have to ride back to town and get a $hitload of dimes". Classic.
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Old April 28, 2009, 06:19 PM   #42
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I was watching CSPAN this weekend and Hillary Clinton was at the House Foreign Afairs Committe (for like over 3 hours, I caught around 2 hours of it).

When I heard this exchange, I had to rewind (dvr) and record the audio with the memo program on my wicked old cell phone (hence why you'll probably have to blast your audio all the way to 11).

I don't remember who asked the question, but here it is:
EDIT: Looks like I grabbed that part. It's Congressman Poe from Texas.

jofaba.com/media/audio/90 or 17.wav

And here is Hillary's response.

jofaba.com/media/audio/hillary response.wav
EDIT: If you can't stand listening to Hillary, Poe pipes back in around 1:46.

I found it to be a VERY interesting exchange. Let me know if any of you have problems playing that. My phone records them as .wav, and I don't know how common of a file type that is these days.

Last edited by Jofaba; April 28, 2009 at 06:28 PM.
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Old April 29, 2009, 09:09 AM   #43
HarrySchell
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It occurs to me the debate about how many guns come from the US is the wrong question.

The real question is whether any gun ban in the US will limit access to arms by the cartels.

The answer is that these boyos move TONS of ILLEGAL CHEMICALS ACROSS CONTINENTS and have already accessed considerable amounts of arms which cannot have come from US gun stores.

Mexico's gun ban doesn't work, nor anyone else's in Central and South America. We can't keep our own felons away from guns.

You are going to hinder the cartels? How stupid do you think I am, Mr. Holder?
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Old April 29, 2009, 02:09 PM   #44
JuanCarlos
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It occurs to me the debate about how many guns come from the US is the wrong question.

The real question is whether any gun ban in the US will limit access to arms by the cartels.

The answer is that these boyos move TONS of ILLEGAL CHEMICALS ACROSS CONTINENTS and have already accessed considerable amounts of arms which cannot have come from US gun stores.

Mexico's gun ban doesn't work, nor anyone else's in Central and South America. We can't keep our own felons away from guns.

You are going to hinder the cartels? How stupid do you think I am, Mr. Holder?
Answer: Very.


I don't necessarily agree with your comparison to our own felons; they often get guns the easy way, which is to steal them locally from the homes of law-abiding gun owners (or buy ones that were stolen). This doesn't necessarily apply to cartels.

But yes, the idea that we'll "hinder" them any further than upping their costs marginally is absurd. These are organizations that bring in millions upon millions of dollars and apparently have no trouble moving illegal goods across international borders by land, sea, and air. If their guns weren't coming (however indirectly) from a sporting goods store or gun show in the U.S., they'd be coming from a freighter straight from China.

You will cut into their profits, but you will not reduce the violence south of the border. Period.
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Old April 29, 2009, 02:30 PM   #45
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Juan Carlos posted:
Quote:
But yes, the idea that we'll "hinder" them any further than upping their costs marginally is absurd. These are organizations that bring in millions upon millions of dollars and apparently have no trouble moving illegal goods across international borders by land, sea, and air. If their guns weren't coming (however indirectly) from a sporting goods store or gun show in the U.S., they'd be coming from a freighter straight from China.
I can't remember the year, but I seem to recall it was circa 1997 when our govt. caught a shipment from China of full auto AK-47's coming into Los Angeles on a ship. Who were those for? How many had come in prior to us catching ONE shipment? How many have made it in since then? Who is buying them? Who is selling them? These are questions I never heard answered back then.

Juan, you are absolutely spot on with your analysis. The black market is very adaptable and flexible. If you cut off one arm it immediately grows another if not two. It's a profit and loss market like any legal one and operates on the principles of supply and demand. It also keeps an eye on the "legal" markets to adjust its own behavior. So, if the "legal" market tightens up the supply of guns, while the demand remains the same, the price in the legal market goes up. The black market may then have an opportunity to reap some profits by replacing some of the lost supply to fill the demand. It's econ 101. For the stupid people like Jimmy Carter, what is it that you don't understand about how markets, including black markets, work?


Edited to add: The year was 1996 and it was Oakland, not LA. My error and my apologies for it.
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Last edited by USAFNoDak; April 29, 2009 at 02:38 PM. Reason: accuracy.
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Old April 29, 2009, 03:42 PM   #46
HarrySchell
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don't necessarily agree with your comparison to our own felons; they often get guns the easy way, which is to steal them locally from the homes of law-abiding gun owners (or buy ones that were stolen). This doesn't necessarily apply to cartels.
My point is we have all this law on the books to punish felons in possession, and what has happened because of the law?

Nothing much, so far as I can tell. In CA (and elsewhere), the felons carry concealed without permits (illegal), shouldn't have a weapon anyway, discharge weapons within city limits (illegal)...usually in the conduct of an illegal act.

Criminals usually won't give you a **** in a tin potty for written law. They don't care. People like Obama think that law and talk is really something because they have never done anything else. They are wrong.

None of the written law does anything to prevent this from happening unless a criminal decides for whatever reason to quit being a criminal.

An AWB is not going to have any affect on the cartels, and that should be the point to make in any discussions with anti's...not how many guns go south, IMHO.
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Old April 29, 2009, 05:22 PM   #47
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My point is we have all this law on the books to punish felons in possession, and what has happened because of the law?

Nothing much, so far as I can tell. In CA (and elsewhere), the felons carry concealed without permits (illegal), shouldn't have a weapon anyway, discharge weapons within city limits (illegal)...usually in the conduct of an illegal act.

Criminals usually won't give you a **** in a tin potty for written law. They don't care. People like Obama think that law and talk is really something because they have never done anything else. They are wrong.

None of the written law does anything to prevent this from happening unless a criminal decides for whatever reason to quit being a criminal.

An AWB is not going to have any affect on the cartels, and that should be the point to make in any discussions with anti's...not how many guns go south, IMHO.
I'll admit right up front that this is nitpicking, but it's just something that bothers me.

Yes, these laws do have an effect. We can argue how much of an effect, but it's non-zero. I have little doubt that if we instituted a nationwide handgun ban tomorrow that handguns would still be available illegally. But, with one major point of supply eliminated (theft from the law abiding) and absent any decrease in demand, the price would go up. Thus less would be able or willing to buy one. EDIT: And with a decrease in demand, thus steady prices, the number of guns on the street would decrease as well.

Laws on the books to bust felons in possession do have an effect. Because now, instead of having to catch them during or after a robbery committed with a firearm, you can prosecute them just for having the firearm. Which means if you find the gun during a random stop prior to the crime, arrest them, try them, and convict them then you have prevented that crime.

Again, it may not be a dramatic effect, but it's non-zero.

Same goes for a theoretical AWB in an attempt to restrict guns to cartels. Take the weapons off the shelves in the U.S., and out of citizens' houses, and you are effectively drying up one supply of weapons to Mexico (whether through straw purchases or theft). Yes, there are other supply routes; however it's pretty obvious that this route is utilized because it is either cheaper or safer (or both) than the alternatives. Force them to utilize alternate supply lines, and obviously you've either increased their costs or increased their risk of interdiction.

Again, the effect may be marginal...but it's non-zero.


The problem with "arguing" with an anti-gun activist is that none of this will matter. See, they put a zero value (or negative value) on firearm ownership (or possibly just some forms of ownership, like "assault weapons")...so telling them that this will have near-zero or even zero impact south of the border isn't going to sway them one bit. You're talking about people who would be fine with the restrictions in and of themselves.

EDIT: And the second you claim it will have no effect you lose any credibility with any rational fence-sitters; because they're going to realize that basic economics suggests it will have some effect, and thus you are pretty obviously wrong.
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Old April 29, 2009, 06:56 PM   #48
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laws only effect law abiding people, the cartels and criminals don't care what laws we pass, including anti fire arm legislation - that only inhibits "good legal citizens" from being able to protect themselves...

once again everyone starts trying to feed an aspirin to this headache instead of tackling the real problem... stop the use of illegal drugs and illegal immigrants, it should be hammered into every commercial, tv ad, advertisement, and in classrooms... it should be treated as a major sin against this society

if every one stopped using the drugs any "cartel" was selling, what would happen?
if actually enforced the laws we have already about illegal immigration, what would happen?
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Old April 29, 2009, 07:14 PM   #49
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Quote:
if every one stopped using the drugs any "cartel" was selling, what would happen?
Yes, that's the answer. Just get everybody to stop doing drugs.

...

...

I'm going to resist making lots of sarcastic remarks, likely involving ponies and/or unicorns, and just say that your question is absurd and irrelevant. Well, at least insofar as the only way people will stop using the drugs the cartel is selling is if they can buy them from legitimate corporations because they've been either heavily decriminalized or fully legalized.

Quote:
if actually enforced the laws we have already about illegal immigration, what would happen?
Didn't you just say that laws only affect the law abiding?

By "enforcement" of laws are we talking about arresting and/or deporting people as we find them? Because that's not going to do much, at least not so far as the flow of drugs and weapons is concerned. If by "enforcement" you're talking about a fence or more guards then, well, good luck. There's real room for improvement, but I have a feeling that guns and drugs will still flow across that border long after we've cut the flow of gardeners and nannies to a trickle.
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Old April 29, 2009, 07:17 PM   #50
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Did anyone get a chance to listen to the links I posted? I hadn't seen much discussion about it online elsewhere and was hoping to get your reaction. I thought it was interesting. I recorded it for my father, he's an anti that I'm working on, but was hoping some of you would find it interesting as well.

It's not an advert for my site, I haven't updated it since around 2007 and it was mostly gaming oriented. It's just the server space I have.
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