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Old April 17, 2009, 06:17 PM   #1
HarrySchell
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The "90% myth" comes from Obama, now

I am getting a little worried. The "90% of Mexican cartel guns come from the US" meme has been discredited by Mexican authorities, BATF, Holder has backed off on pushing it, in the last week or longer(?)...and Obama repeats it again today.

Is he out of touch? Is he unable to learn any fact that doesn't support what he wants to do? Stupid? Unbalanced? Willing to lie blatantly if he thinks he will advance his agenda? Thinks no one notices when he lies through his teeth or is blatantly and clearly doesn't know the facts of an issue?

If this is a taste of what is to come, we are in for some hard sledding. You cannot make public policy based on facts that don't exist and expect to have ANYTHING work out well. The whole dialogue of what to do is corrupted, on any issue, not just this one.

The DHS report on us right-wing 2A supporters makes more sense than this, but maybe it is all of a piece with the leftist wonderland these clowns occupy. Only problem is these wingnuts control much of government. They have a lot of guns, a lot of power.

Past frustrated, now spooked. What the hell is going on?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


MEXICO CITY | Meeting face-to-face with Mexican President Felipe Calderon, President Obama on Thursday said the U.S. is to blame for much of Mexico's drug violence, and he set up a major congressional gun-control battle by calling on the Senate to ratify a treaty designed to track and cut the flow of guns to other countries.

Mr. Obama said he wants to renew a ban on some semiautomatic weapons but that it is not likely to pass Congress. Instead, he called for the Senate to ratify a decade-old hemispherewide treaty that would require nations to mark all weapons produced in the country and track them to make sure no weapons were exported to countries where they were banned.

"I will not pretend that this is Mexico's responsibility alone. The demand for these drugs in the United States is what's helping keep these cartels in More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border." business," Mr. Obama said at a joint news conference with Mr. Calderon. "This war is being waged with guns purchased not here, but in the United States.

Read more at:
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009...uns-in-mexico/
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Last edited by HarrySchell; April 17, 2009 at 06:37 PM.
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Old April 17, 2009, 06:31 PM   #2
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The demand for these drugs in the United States is what's helping keep these cartels in business.
Oh, the libertarian in me is crying out in pain right now...

Dont you think its ironic that if you ban all military style rifles in the US, the cartels would benefit by getting something else to illegally import for profit?
Or maybe im just crazy...
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Old April 17, 2009, 06:36 PM   #3
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KLRANGL,

Even if they don't bring them in and sell them, these cartels transport tons of illegal drugs across continents.

The idea of a gun ban in the US keeping weapons out of their hands doesn't pass a giggle test. Fantasy. But Obama does ride a unicorn... :barf:
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Old April 17, 2009, 06:37 PM   #4
Brian Pfleuger
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Is he out of touch? Is he unable to learn any fact that doesn't support what he wants to do?
Dude! They just haven't updated the teleprompter yet, give it another week.
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Old April 17, 2009, 07:29 PM   #5
KLRANGL
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KLRANGL,

Even if they don't bring them in and sell them, these cartels transport tons of illegal drugs across continents.
Im not sure how that applies to what I said...
Of course they transport illegal drugs across continents. I was just pointing out the irony that if you ban "assault rifles" then they can illegally import (and profit on) those as well.
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Old April 17, 2009, 09:02 PM   #6
HarrySchell
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Klrangl,
You are right, my comment doesn't apply to your observation, which is dead nuts on. And I expect it would occur...gangs here need auto and semi-auto weapons, maybe the market would open up to smugglers more if Bama and Holder get their dream done.

I figure that relatively few gun dealers consciously sell weapons to felons, much less AW's. So, if my thought is accurate, the supply of AW's in criminal hands is either pretty small and already involves some nature of illegal activity, though I suspect it is unlikely people are smuggling semiauto AR's INTO the US.

I suspect the supply is pretty small, because the use of AW's in crime, I believe, is very small, though any use...think Oakland (which involved an SKS legal in CA if not in the hands of a felon)...gets lots of media attention. And CA has effectively an AWB, since 1994. CA DOJ does everything they can do to eliminate AW's. If you have one (registered, of course) and die in CA, they take the weapon and destroy it. Relatives? Last will and testament? Say what? We gotta get that evil rifle before it kills someone.

But you are right, to the extent criminals want the weapons, the cartels will meet the need and make money from it. Same for cigarettes, with the new fed taxes on them. As the British will not admit, guns are freely available in London if you know the right people. And Britain is an island, with all semi-close coastlines belonging to states which have "stronger" gun controls than the US. Um, it don't work, this lovely idea we all will get along just for the heck of it. Evil is. Guns are for killing (as well as sport) but killing bad guys also happens. It is not always that guns are used for crime and mayhem. Brady et. al. only see one side of the issue. That is the best way to embarrass them.

The irony is bittersweet, for the misery created by general "who cares" attitude about law, truth, etc. The overall social compact of trusting another person degrades as more people look with amusement at the efforts of lawmakers to control the world and bend it to their tiny minds.

The descent of our daily mores is pretty clear, and the efforts of mindless politicians to lie their way out of tight spots (Chris Dodd and Barney Frank come to mind as the most recent, but the best one was the guy who redefined "is", and got away with it) only emphasizes the advantages of a slickly presented but amoral outlook on life. No wonder the trial bar makes a four page agreement from 1990 into 24 pages today.

The rebuild of Ground Zero in NYC is decades away because there are 93 (?) different "stakeholders" (people who must be pleased but who have nothing except their own satisfaction at risk) trying to make themselves happy.

To bring this semi-rant back onto point, Obama today repeated the "90% of cartel guns come from the US" crap, after it has been decisively disproved so that his own AG won't repeat it. When POTUS either is delusional, uninformed or a damn liar, what responsibility devolves to the rest of us to get our facts straight and think rather than emote?

A fish rots from the head down, say the Chinese. I think they are right.

Ironic indeed that the dunce Obama would enrich the cartels with weapon sales in the US.

Forgive me for bringing a lot of other issues into this. I think we have a general problem, the role of law and government. It touches everything, not just our right as humans to effective self-defense. I expect I am off-point for what is intended for this forum, but IMO we cannot look at the right of self-defense (as opposed to "gun rights"...see the difference?) in isolation to the general political trends in this republic with regard to the role of government(s) and citizens.
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Last edited by HarrySchell; April 17, 2009 at 09:24 PM.
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Old April 17, 2009, 11:16 PM   #7
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This is bad. If Obama is willing to flat-out lie on a point like this, it means he thinks he has most of the media with him no matter what he does.

That has implications far beyond guns.
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Old April 18, 2009, 12:36 AM   #8
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What I find to be so ridiculous is that for as long as I can remember liberals have been against any kind of Mexican boarder control even though for years tons of drugs have come across our boarder from their country. Yet now that some guns from the U.S. are being smuggled and hurting their people its all of a sudden a big problem. The hypocrisy is unreal. Where were all these do-gooder politicians when American was being overrun by a flood of illegal immigrants and drugs from Mexico?
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Old April 18, 2009, 01:22 AM   #9
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... liberals have been against any kind of Mexican boarder control...
And they still are. They don't want to tighten up the border, they want to limit gun sales in the U.S.

Tain't about border control, it's about gun control.
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Old April 18, 2009, 01:56 AM   #10
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IMO self defense is being wahsed out in this country, or at least attempts are being made to wash it out. 10 years ago i graduated high school, 14 mid school. in mid school if someone came up and punched, kicked, slapped, or did what ever to me, i could defned myself and not get in trouble. in high school i would have got suspended for a week( which happened several times because i was raised if someone hits you, you hit them back harder and faster and make it count.) now, if someone hits you and you hit them back, you both get arrested for assualt and battery. what???? how exactly does that work? some moron can come up and clock me one and i cant defend myself??? what in the hell is that teaching kids? and also, look how they attempt to crucify people that use a gun to kill some worthless scumbag that breaks into there house! i have very little respect for criminals. I understand they have families and that their families love them because i have criminals in my family and i love them, however they are still criminals and if they get hurt and or klilled commiting a crime im not going to hold that against the person that they tried to rob/rape/steal from/whatever. (i realize this is off topic, but its more of a response to acomment about self defense)

also i live ina border state that just did away with the death penelty. GREAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT when the juarez drug wars spill over into my state and MAYBE just maybe the cops do their job and catch some of these scum, by golly! my tax money get to go to keep em alive for 50 years, not to some kids education or to fix our ****** roads god i love it!
rant off sorry!

Last edited by freakintoguns; April 18, 2009 at 01:58 AM. Reason: added a rant on the border
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Old April 18, 2009, 07:56 AM   #11
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"More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border"

Interesting!

This is a bit of a change from the way it's been worded in the past.

Now it's slightly more... vague. In weeks past we were led to believe that virtually all of the guns that were seized in Mexico were SPORTING-type guns.

Now if you read Obama's statement, it's only that the guns are MADE in Mexico.

Given that the US government supplies, or has supplied, VAST quantities of American-made military rifles, handguns, and other hardware to Mexico, and the Mexican government has a HUGE desertion problem, is it, in fact, the United States Government that is supplying most drug dealers weapons?

If so, the United States government should take immediate sanction against itself...
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Old April 18, 2009, 08:01 AM   #12
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I love how they throw out these numbers without mentioning the number of illegal weapons that have found their way into America via mexico and south america...

Ive never heard of a gangbanger who could pass a background check, yet somehow they get their hands on a lot of automatic weapons. Weapons that still smell like the coffee and banana crates they where smuggled into the country in...
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Old April 18, 2009, 08:36 AM   #13
Re4mer
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And they still are. They don't want to tighten up the border, they want to limit gun sales in the U.S.

Tain't about border control, it's about gun control.
Yes I understand this.

I'm not sure you got my point, my point was that it is hypocritical for them to complain about guns crossing the boarder when huge amounts of drugs have been coming over here for years. Obviously this is just an excuse to get rid of guns we all know that.
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Old April 18, 2009, 08:41 AM   #14
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The first time I heard the 90% quote it didn't pass the smell test. Can anyone provide a link showing where this number came from and a link disputing the number.

Our President is everything we were afraid he was, an elitist, extreme left wing liberal. I think it is interesting that even though he has over half the American public, the media, the house, and the senate in the bag, he stills knows better than to try to mess with the right to bear arms. He and our Secretary of State have basically said they would like to ban assault weapons but know it is politically impossible.
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Old April 18, 2009, 09:04 AM   #15
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Obama is doing his best to lull gun owners into believing he won't push for additional gun control. Don't buy it, it's a ruse. Get gun owners to relax and stop pushing against a new AWB, etc. and he and his cronies will charge ahead with one. His background clearly shows he's extremely anti gun..

An international treaty to track guns can, and would, be used to further efforts to outlaw guns globaly. Something Soros and friends would gladly support.
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Old April 18, 2009, 01:03 PM   #16
HarrySchell
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Cites regarding truth about Mexican guns

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009...-crime-is-not/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...umber-claimed/

http://www.c-span.org/Watch/watch.as...mId=HP-A-41601 (This is mostly about concealed carry and the DC gun law bouncing around in Congress, but John Lott gets inot the Mexican gun situation at the end of it.) (An interesting video to watch about the efficacy of gun buns, too.)
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Old April 18, 2009, 01:31 PM   #17
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If the firearms in question did come from a US source, then by tracing the serial numbers they can find where that firearm was last legally transferred. With that information, there would be thousands of arrests.

How many such arrests have we heard of?
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Old April 18, 2009, 01:37 PM   #18
Bartholomew Roberts
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Dont you think its ironic that if you ban all military style rifles in the US, the cartels would benefit by getting something else to illegally import for profit?
On the bright side, you would have full-auto military style weaponry and ammunition as cheap and as available as drugs are now. That would actually be an improvement over the current market in pretty much every respect.
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Old April 18, 2009, 04:10 PM   #19
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I actually found myself calling him a liar out loud in an empty room. I watch a lot of news, hours a day, and have been watching his overseas work, mostly pleased. When he spouted that blatantly false "factoid" I just became very disappointed with him, mostly because he's obviously keeping the AWB beyond arms reach right now. So why lie? It makes no sense. I wish a reporter called him on it.

Facts aside, it's even beyond logic. It's too expensive and logistically difficult to legally purchase large amounts of semi-auto "assault weapons" here, where they're insanely priced at top market retail, pay off who they need to in order to get them into mexico, then convert them, all the while being smart enough to do all this but too dumb to file off the serial numbers and thus putting their apparently "cheap and easy" source (the USA) in jeopardy.
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Old April 18, 2009, 04:18 PM   #20
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I actually found myself calling him a liar out loud in an empty room.
That's OK. I spent the past 8 years doing the same thing everytime George Bush came on the TV. The names and the policies may change, but the quality of the people probably doesn't.
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Old April 18, 2009, 05:32 PM   #21
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And you are surpised at this?

Quote:
Willing to lie blatantly if he thinks he will advance his agenda? Thinks no one notices when he lies through his teeth or is blatantly and clearly doesn't know the facts of an issue?
POLITICIAN...Hello!!!

Quote:
On the bright side, you would have full-auto military style weaponry and ammunition as cheap and as available as drugs are now. That would actually be an improvement over the current market in pretty much every respect.
except for the whole going to jail thing when you get found with them.

You know, they could be (technically) correct, at least for part of what they are saying. If you recover 100 guns, and 90 of them are US made M16s, supplied by US aid to Mexico, and stolen from the Mexican govt, then the 90% made in the USA is technically correct. Misleading and deceitful, certainly. Out of context, certainly. But technically correct, in the same way one former president was technically correct claiming "he did not have sex with that woman".

Tinfoil hat time: Consider that it may just be that some people really want the drug war violence to spill over the border. It would be a fine excuse for taking away what few remaining rights we have. If they can get that result by appearing inept, they still get that result!
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Old April 18, 2009, 05:45 PM   #22
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Tinfoil hat time: Consider that it may just be that some people really want the drug war violence to spill over the border. It would be a fine excuse for taking away what few remaining rights we have. If they can get that result by appearing inept, they still get that result!
No foil required. The Bush administration let the low-intensity conflict on the border slide for nearly a decade, probably out of ineptitude, but whatever the reason he left a situation ripe for exploitation and gave the current administration a blueprint for the destruction of rights at the same time.

What was that quote about reaping and sowing....
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Old April 18, 2009, 06:45 PM   #23
HarrySchell
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I actually found myself calling him a liar out loud in an empty room. I watch a lot of news, hours a day, and have been watching his overseas work, mostly pleased. When he spouted that blatantly false "factoid" I just became very disappointed with him, mostly because he's obviously keeping the AWB beyond arms reach right now. So why lie? It makes no sense. I wish a reporter called him on it.

Facts aside, it's even beyond logic. It's too expensive and logistically difficult to legally purchase large amounts of semi-auto "assault weapons" here, where they're insanely priced at top market retail, pay off who they need to in order to get them into mexico, then convert them, all the while being smart enough to do all this but too dumb to file off the serial numbers and thus putting their apparently "cheap and easy" source (the USA) in jeopardy.
Today 11:37 AM
Yup. That is what is bothering me, the lack of logic or even slight covering fire. His own AG has been routed publicly on the same issue. ATF numbers don't support it, nor even Mexican numbers. It is I guess a matter of faith, in Marx. Can't control the sheep if they can hit back, and if criminals are pounding them day in and day out, they will be even more cooperative.

I guess the treaty will provide cover for executive actions along the lines of a AWB...anything semiauto.

When the facts don't matter...public policy tends to suck, at least from the viewpoint of those not connected and protected by the political class.
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Old April 18, 2009, 07:37 PM   #24
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Speaking of lies... Why doesn`t the Mexican gov`n. take lesson`s off the U.S. gov`t and declare a so called 'war on assault weapons' and they(Mexican gov`n) can make billions. Same as the U.S. gov`t. does on the so called 'war on drugs'. For years(and many administrations) the U.S. supplied arms to a corrupt Mexican gov`n. which has turned its head to the billions of dollars the drug cartels have been making off the US smuggling their drugs here . In the speech the Mexican pres. made, he remarked about the appetite for illegal drugs in the US. Wonder why the Mexican gov`n has never stepped up to the plate when it comes to border patrol. To much money to be made by corrupt Mexican officials in the drug business thats why. Their drugs have been killing people here for years , now arms we gave them are ending up in the drug cartels hands through passed/present corrupt Mexican gov`t.:barf:. I just hope Obama knows what he`s doing going to these different countries, thinking he can just waltz in, talk to the heads of these countries and things will be ok. Hope he`s all that.
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Old April 18, 2009, 10:12 PM   #25
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Bush made the same claims in January 2009

"President Bush said yesterday that the United States should work to stop the movement of guns across our southern border into Mexico." http://www.infowars.com/bush-says-am...exico-from-us/ So it would appear the American gun connection statements did not start with Obama. Back in April 2008 "U.S. gun stores and gun shows are the source of more than 90 percent of the weapons being used by Mexico's ruthless drug cartels, according to U.S. and Mexican law enforcement officials." http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4695848&page=1

In 2007 this statement appeared at http://news.newamericamedia.org/news...e4da7f5022104f “We are concerned about the number of weapons coming into Mexico and Central America illegally from the United States,” Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said last month when he was attending a conference in Cuernavaca, south of Mexico City. “There is more that we can do, and we are looking to do, to try and stem the flow of illegal weapons into Mexico.”

Hey I don't like the probable issues with gun control that could affect gun ownership. But I also will not pretend the issue of America and guns getting into Mexico are a pretence that begin with Obama when I can easily find reference going back through the eight years of the last administration.
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