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Old April 15, 2009, 08:46 PM   #26
roy reali
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So, we should skip the midterm election?
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Old April 15, 2009, 08:52 PM   #27
Jofaba
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So, we should skip the midterm election?
Why would we do that?
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Old April 15, 2009, 09:08 PM   #28
Tom Servo
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I have to admit I am VERY surprised not to see conversation taking place here.
None of this is directed towards the OP, but meant as general elucidation for everyone who just got involved in the cause last week/month/election.

This conversation has taken place hundreds of thousands of times over the last 75 years.

Like many folks in the community, my involvement goes back more than a decade. When I got in, I was fully aware how green I was, and in the long view, still am.

This stuff didn't go awry overnight. It was pushed through with the tacit approval of a populace that was content to believe what they were told. In this case, that was, "guns are bad, and no responsible person should want them."

It was pushed through in small incremements, and each time people like me spoke out against it, we were labelled as "extremists" or "militia nuts."

Now that Joe and Marge Country Club are seeing the ugly culmination of their voting patterns and prior ambivalence, they're up in arms. These are the same people who were shocked that I should offer to teach their children how to shoot guns, or that I felt I had the right to carry a gun to defend myself.

I have neighbors who called the police on me in 2002 when they saw me carrying a Garand from my car to my front door. Last summer, these people approached me about leading a neighborhood watch because I "had guns." Last February, they approached me for shooting lessons.

Don't get me wrong; I'm glad they came around. I just wish they'd realize that the 2A has been under attack since before they were born, and that to preserve it, they have to get off the couch and do something.

I'm willing to guess that this thread isn't getting many replies because most of us are busy teaching, staying in contact with our elected officials and coordinating shoots.

I'm glad to see you've come around; welcome aboard. Instead of asking, "well, why isn't more being done?" try asking older folks in the community what they've been doing, and ask how you can help.

We don't need 4 years. The mid-terms are a 17 months out, and we can make a difference by supporting the right candidates. Many of the Democrats currently in the legislature are in fact very pro-gun, and could also use your support and kind words.
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Old April 15, 2009, 09:43 PM   #29
Shane Tuttle
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and the only suggested solution was to "vote them out". i
I don't disagree with that, but there is a ton of work and preparation between saying it and making it happen.
OK, Jafaba. If this is how it's going to be:

If you reread ALL of my posts, you'd see that I suggested some items other than voting them out.

1. Contact your local elected officials. Get involved in keeping tabs on what they do, what they're introducing on the house/senate floors. Hold them accountable for their actions and provide support when they do right.

2. Vote them out. Yes, I did specifically state this for a darn good reason. IMHO, you failed to do so by voting for Obama. It's no good to spend my time giving solutions if you don't vote for 2A supporters to begin with.

3. Read up on the Constitution. Also, the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights (not just the 2A), and writings of the Founding Fathers. Again, not to lambast you, but I believe you need to start with studying these documents and then get back to us. I feel that one needs to get a better grasp on how it all started, why, and how.

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I don't disagree with that, but there is a ton of work and preparation between saying it and making it happen.
To summarize, I DID provide you with several steps in the solution process. Those three items alone should be the foundation, IMO. You're right. There IS a ton of work and preparation. But you need to know the multiplication table before trying to excecute quadradic equations...
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Old April 15, 2009, 10:03 PM   #30
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What i don't understand Jofaba, is why you voted for the guy, and now that the most liberal senator in the country, is actually running the country...all this is an issue. Maybe i'm missing something in your concern. What good is it if we do all this and that...if we just faint in the voting booth....again?

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I have to admit I am VERY surprised not to see conversation taking place here.
And then we get....that?

Ok, i'll bite...heres my brilliant ideas: Midterms in two years, and Virginia has a big ticket gubernatorial. Scrape the feel good bumper sticker and change that first. Go NRA, join the PTA, buy them while you can, vote the other way.
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Old April 16, 2009, 06:32 AM   #31
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I'm not going to get into a McCain v Obama argument because the reasons I voted for him were not related to this issue. It was my hope that he'd be too busy with everything else, and that what happened in 1994/1995 would deter congress. Also, it continues to be my hope that his mind can be changed on the subject. I don't really care how naive that sounds, but I sized both candidates up and made my decision. I maintain the right to be critical of the decisions of a party and leadership that I am a member of and voted for. You can blame me for voting for Obama and I can blame you for not coming up with a better republican candidate. I won't attack Palin because Biden is just as ridiculous.

You say 2 years because of midterm elections, I'm predicting 4 years because I think the general consensus will be to try and keep Obama in office for a 2nd term, and if they lose control of congress then what Obama can do easily disappears. They've already said "that's not for now, that's for later". So we've already managed to push the option off the table for a while. I'm suggesting we continue having it pushed until it falls off the table completely. If we can do that, then my goal was accomplished and the guy I voted for didn't hurt my 2nd amendment right.

He has not lived up to my expectations, and he has broken several promises. I don't have "buyers remorse", but I disagree with several things he's done so far.

And even though I voted for him, guess what? I'm allowed to complain when he or the party does something that I don't like. Aren't you glad that not everyone that voted for Obama blindly follows his every decision? Would you rather the US be blindly following McCain? Or would it be okay for republicans to be critical of some of his decisions as well?

I feel that the 2nd amendment IS absolutely important to protect, obviously, but I don't think that we should allow politicians to use their supposed support as a fishing hook for votes. I'd rather choose a politician based on overall score, and then work my ass off to protect myself in the areas where our ideals clash.

If Obama was a little more pro gun than McCain would you have voted for him over that? Even if you disagreed with a lot of other things that he does support?

Last edited by Jofaba; April 16, 2009 at 06:40 AM.
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Old April 16, 2009, 06:49 AM   #32
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I'm willing to guess that this thread isn't getting many replies because most of us are busy teaching, staying in contact with our elected officials and coordinating shoots.
I don't take offense to your post, or anyone elses. I certainly know what I'm in for when I say that I voted for Obama. I know what I'm getting into being wet behind the ears and being so vocal. I know what I'm getting into when I disagree with someone. It's why I'm here. I'm listening to what everyone is saying and definitely learning a lot. I'd be a tad uncomfortable if no one disagreed with anything I said.

I get what you're saying, and whether it was implied or not I read this as "we're out there doing stuff, while you're up here saying stuff" and doing is stronger than saying. True, and I hope that people are out there doing stuff. I personally feel that it's a bit idealistic to think that everyone is so busy out there DOING that they haven't seen this discussion and had the time to chime in, especially when their input would be far more valuable than my own. If people are out there doing, they should be letting us know what they're doing, what's working, and what they think we should do. Don't you think that an organized effort would be more affective especially with good leadership?

We can focus and debate about my personal voting record or we can talk about what we think we should do to stop any infringement from taking place.Which do you think will benefit us better at the end of the day?
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Old April 16, 2009, 06:58 PM   #33
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I watched the president, as well as the mexican president, respond to the question of the AWB in the same way that we've discussed they are now approaching it. With fear. Obama did say that he still thinks that it is a common sense legislation but I think we can all agree, I just want someone to ask them:

WHAT EXACTLY IS AN ASSAULT WEAPON?!?

They repeated a fact which I am to understand has been proven to be misleading, that 90 percent of all weapons procured in drug raids in Mexico came from the United States. It is my understanding that it is 90 percent of all traceable guns, because we make all weapons traceable. And that if you phrase it correctly, its closer to 17 percent.

This matches common sense, as legal guns on the retail market in the US are pretty damn expensive. I think it'd be easier to buy a full auto untraceable weapon from south america than a semi auto serial coded version in the us, convert it to full auto, then start using it for crime. But, that's just me.

So that's the news today. What does that do for us? Not much. It reiterates that they aren't going for anything big right now. We can argue whether it will be 2 or 4 or 6 or 8 years before something happens that we will regret. We can give obvious answers like "vote!". You have all been voting for however long that you have, and has it worked? Public opinion means more than a vote, in my opinion. That's mine, I hold it and it makes more sense to me than arguing about writing your representatives. Screw em, they have their own idealistic reasons for choosing a side. Take that power away from them by swaying public opinion.

How do you do that?

That's what this thread is about. I don't even want to hear people suggesting we need to vote different. Vote however you want, it hasn't helped the cause. And yes I'm green, wet behind the ears, idealistic, naive, young, stupid, whatever, but at least I'm trying to think outside the box.

My goal is to do our best to reach those 300+ million Americans who are out there who include ourselves and include incredibly uneducated people who need to realize how important it is that we protect this right without any agreeable restrictions. Agreeable meaning that stupid reply about "should you be allowed to have a nuke, etc.

Look, I want you to like me but I really don't care if you don't and I won't bend over backwards to try and talk you into accepting me. If you think I'm an idiot then good for you and hell, maybe you're right.

My point is that we need to organize an effort to change opinion. You have to realize how awesome a goal that is, and by awesome I'm talking span, not slang. It is going to be incredibly difficult and expensive to do our best to get people who don't care about this, or are against it, to change their minds.

The people ultimately make the rules that govern them. If the people feel that that we should be allowed to have semi-autos, high cap magazines, ugly guns, then you do not have to fear them being taken away.

I am the spark, not the fire. I am not trying to take the lead. I am trying to influence someone to do so. I want to see people coming up with ideas, putting them into action, and fixing this problem. The problem is a lack of organization. Someone please, for the love of God, help us face this challenge.
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Old April 16, 2009, 10:44 PM   #34
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It is my understanding that it is 90 percent of all traceable guns, because we make all weapons traceable. And that if you phrase it correctly, its closer to 17 percent.
I've spoken to an acquaintance in the ATF, and it's actually less than 10%. Most of those are small-caliber pistols, to boot.

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We can give obvious answers like "vote!". You have all been voting for however long that you have, and has it worked? (...) I don't even want to hear people suggesting we need to vote different. Vote however you want, it hasn't helped the cause.
Seemed to work just fine for us in 1994. It's all the people who've been voting the wrong way, for the wrong reasons who are the problem.

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Take that power away from them by swaying public opinion. How do you do that?
One example: you provide research assistance to the folks who write for the legal journals. Writers like Clayton Cramer are worth 100 Ted Nugents. In the 1990's, law professors were unanimous in the belief that the 2A protected a "collective right." Today, that belief has lost a great deal of ground.

Preaching to the choir on a gun board? Not so effective.

Quote:
My point is that we need to organize an effort to change opinion. You have to realize how awesome a goal that is, and by awesome I'm talking span, not slang. It is going to be incredibly difficult and expensive to do our best to get people who don't care about this, or are against it, to change their minds.
Such a campaign is going on everywhere in this country. The NRA has been fighting for your rights far longer than you've been aware of them. There is doubtless already a local and/or state grassroots organization devoted to reforming firearms laws. Have you joined or contacted them?

There are organized efforts everywhere in this country, and they need your support.

Look, I'm glad you've come around, but you've spent your whole life up until this month ignoring the issue and voting the wrong way. I'm sorry you're unhappy with the sad state of gun laws in this country, but everything you've posted has already been said. This debate has been going on since before anyone here was born. It's not going to be resolved overnight.

In the meantime, you can develop an ulcer about it, or you can get involved with organizations who've been on the ground for years already.

If you end up writing a letter or being interviewed, please compose yourself, and make sure you've got your facts straight. Make sure you know all the distortions the other side will pull (Kellerman, misquoting WISQARS stats) and how to refute them. Look to some of the older gun writers and learn from the arguments they've made. Know what works and what won't. Most important, know what gets attention and what doesn't.

Don't fall back on emotion--silly hysterics are for the other side. Stick with the facts, present them calmly and with authority, and you will carry the day.
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Old April 16, 2009, 11:02 PM   #35
Shane Tuttle
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You say 2 years because of midterm elections, I'm predicting 4 years because I think the general consensus will be to try and keep Obama in office for a 2nd term, and if they lose control of congress then what Obama can do easily disappears.
It's fine to prepare for the next presidential election. But you have a fatal flaw in your belief that this should take precedence over mid-term elections. You like football? You think the week of the AFC championship game the teams are focusing on what tactics they need to execute to win the Super Bowl? Absolutely NOT. If they do, they lose the AFC championship and have to wait another year and play another 16+ games to even get that shot again. I side with roy reali here. America already screwed up voting for Obama. We have to keep him on the backburner on simmer while we need to work on mid-term elections coming up on the front burner on medium-high.

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If we can do that, then my goal was accomplished and the guy I voted for didn't hurt my 2nd amendment right.
...unless he appoints supreme court justices. Then you won't be able to wash your hands that easily. What about other laws he may implement or sign that's orchestrated by congress that would be extremely difficult to reverse? One popular example is the AWB....making it permanent no less....

Quote:
And even though I voted for him, guess what? I'm allowed to complain when he or the party does something that I don't like.
Just because others didn't vote for him doesn't mean they can't complain...

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Aren't you glad that not everyone that voted for Obama blindly follows his every decision?
Not particularly. The numbers are very few at the moment...

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Would you rather the US be blindly following McCain? Or would it be okay for republicans to be critical of some of his decisions as well?
Well, let's put it this way. In regards to the preservation of the 2nd Amendment, I wouldn't exactly be worried about blind followers of McCain compared to blind followers of Obama.

Quote:
If Obama was a little more pro gun than McCain would you have voted for him over that? Even if you disagreed with a lot of other things that he does support?
If Obama was a little more pro gun than McCain, the NRA would have placed him up on the highest pedestal in the land (again, regarding the 2A). But I still wouldn't have voted for him. There's one issue that Obama supports that IMO trumps gun voting records. I'm not willing to go into any more detail in public due to the other reasons are not gun nor civil rights related.

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That's what this thread is about. I don't even want to hear people suggesting we need to vote different. Vote however you want, it hasn't helped the cause.
Then this is where I place my final post here. You can expend all the effort you want to change public opinion. But it will not do any good compared to advocating to vote for a representative. We are not a democracy. We're a republic. We elect officials to represent our voice. Have you seen the ratings on the public's opinion of how congress is doing? Last I checked it was in the tank. You think since the public's opinion is nonexistant congress is acting in our best interest? NOPE. They're still plugging away ignoring us and doing whatever they want. Your opinion of thinking getting people to vote is probably sour because the same dang officials are voted in office over and over again. Look at Ted Kennedy. We're not getting results because we're not concentrating on convincing people to vote out these idiots and voting for fresh faces. I know plenty of people that have the same opinions I generally, but those same people don't want to get off their duff and spend the ten minutes checking a box or two on a ballot once in a great while.

Quote:
We can focus and debate about my personal voting record or we can talk about what we think we should do to stop any infringement from taking place.Which do you think will benefit us better at the end of the day?
Talk about your voting record. To be honest, it's an utter waste of time trying to talk about stopping any more infringement on my 2A rights if you choose to vote for the very person that has the most damning voting record against them in the future. But I digress. I'm not inclined to focus on this matter in public.
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Old April 17, 2009, 05:44 AM   #36
Jofaba
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All good points and I agree with most of it, including the criticism on myself.

I didn't want to get into a voting debate because its a different conversation. I wanted us to discuss what we could do in the non-political arena to influence people (you can call them voters if you want to).

Unfortunately, maybe through my own fault, this thread has fallen to shambles. It's failed to ignite the conversation that I hoped it would. I tried to steer it back by making some suggestions and all anyone seems to want to talk about is my voting record, how wet behind the ears I am, and how naive I am. All valid for criticism but all entirely unlikely to sway the gun control issue in our favor.

Unless we're trying to convert me?

Well, if we can't get past who I voted for then I don't see how we could possibly move forward with the conversation so I guess that's the end of this thread.

I respect all that have posted so far, and I enjoy the criticism, it will only help me grow and learn. It just wasn't the point behind my original post. Maybe I'll try again down the road with a different approach.
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Old April 17, 2009, 10:01 AM   #37
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I will disagree here.

One of the strategies is precisely to get people to understand their elected reps are not representing them, and to vote the bum out.

At some point, it doesn't matter who gets in, if they also get hit with the people emailing them that the only reason they got the vote (and won the election) was because the former representative didn't listen to their constituents. Not because people thought they were better than the other guy, or that people thought they would do a better job.

Remember, once they get into office, they spend an absurd amount of time and capital to stay in office.

Let them know, upfront, that the other guy was voted out - they weren't voted in. Now the focus is on them. Do they want to retain the office next election? or get summarily dismissed, as was their opponent?
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Old April 18, 2009, 06:21 PM   #38
Jofaba
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I've started a new thread. I set 3 rules that I hope will be followed, and I hope that the discussion is more positive and effective in means of topic than I managed in this one. If you want to pour any continuation of the conversation that's been in here, I beg you to restrain.

I believe that political and non-political activism are two different discussions, both entirely worthy of debate, but I would like to keep them seperated for the means of this particular conversation.

Here is the link. I hesitated to post it here in fear of an early destruction of that thread, but I think it only fair to link the two.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...11#post3442811

Regardless of what you think of me, my ideas, my vote, please respect the rules of that thread so that it can be more productive and maybe, just maybe, even YOU will learn something from a topic, idea, or concept that someone else brings up.

I will be losing my internet tomorrow because of a billing issue. I will try and check in daily but my usual activity will be severely reduced. This is not a cop-out, I simply have no choice. I hope to have full internet access back up by next Friday. How do I know when I'll lose my net? Because I had it turned back on and promised to pay Friday, and they gave me till Saturday to give me a day grace period, and then my car broke down so I couldn't make the payment.
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