The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 14, 2009, 01:41 AM   #1
trlrnr
Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2009
Location: maine
Posts: 35
your opinion on clearing a double feed malfunction

I have seen two techniques on this.

1. lock slide back and then extract magazine--rack x3.....

2. extrct magazine--rack x3...

I'm not reciting the whole drill. just wondering which one is current standard and why?

thanks in advance for any info
trlrnr is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 01:52 AM   #2
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Some pistols like the Glock allow you to rip out the magazine without locking the slide back. With practice you can remove the mag. (keep it), work the slide to clear the chamber and reinsert the same mag. You can clear this malfunction quickly. Don't know of what other pistols can be cleared this way.

Most, like the SIG, allow the round to go too far forward so it's half in and half out of the mag. The nose of the bullet overhangs the feed ramp too far to facilitate pulling it out of the gun without locking the slide back. It's removing the mag. that clears things so you can work the slide and remove the chambered round. You jettison the mag., work the slide, and reload your spare. Which, of course, demonstrates more than one reason to carry a reload.

Others who have more experience clearing such malfunctions may have different opinions. Some instructors (Farnum) advocate locking the slide back, working the action and reloading because it works with all guns. Though slower.

Last edited by Nnobby45; April 14, 2009 at 02:04 AM.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 02:23 AM   #3
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,959
Locking the slide back is marginally slower, but definitely more certain. Because it is always certain to work, that's the technique I prefer.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 04:47 PM   #4
Keltyke
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Posts: 2,933
Quote:
I have seen two techniques on this.

1. lock slide back and then extract magazine--rack x3.....
BANG! You're dead!
Quote:
2. extrct magazine--rack x3...
This is a case where I would love to have a BUG. Change the technique to:

1. Drop the primary weapon
2. Draw the backup weapon
3. Keep firing until the threat is negated
Keltyke is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 05:39 PM   #5
Wagonman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 987
+1 PAX

+1/2 Kelt.

BUGS are a great idea but the question was how to correct a malf
Wagonman is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 09:41 PM   #6
Hellbilly5000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 24, 2009
Location: RGV, Tx
Posts: 787
In the army we were taught a method called S.P.O.R.T.S.
Slap the magazine up
Pull the magazined out
Obeserve the chamber
Replace the magazine
Tap the magazine
Shoot
__________________
And death climbs the steps one by one, To give you the rose that's been burnt by her son, Point me to the sky above I can't get there on my own, Walk me through the graveyard Dig up her bones
Hellbilly5000 is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 10:11 PM   #7
ISC
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,982
For the M16 the procedure we teach is:
Slap the mag
Pull the charging handle
Observe the chamber
Release charging handle
Tap forward assist
Shoot

Pistols are a little different obviously (no FA) and you operate the slide instead of a charging handle. If you have a double feed sometimes you can just tilt the pistol and the extra round will fall out. Quite often you need to remove the mag and that can be hampered by a round that is halfway in the mag and half out. locking the slide back is a more sure way to deal with a double feed once you identify that as the reason for the stoppage.
ISC is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 10:22 PM   #8
Hellbilly5000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 24, 2009
Location: RGV, Tx
Posts: 787
isc i was an mp they tought us the same acronym from hand guns just taylored it to hand guns
__________________
And death climbs the steps one by one, To give you the rose that's been burnt by her son, Point me to the sky above I can't get there on my own, Walk me through the graveyard Dig up her bones
Hellbilly5000 is offline  
Old April 15, 2009, 01:14 AM   #9
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,087
The proper technique - as I was taught - was to
1. lock the slide back
2. extract and retain the magazine
3. Run the action 2-3 times
4. Reinsert the magazine
5. Rack the slide and shoot.

This technique should work every time unless there is damage to the weapon or magazine. Total time it takes when you hurry is less than 2 seconds.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old April 17, 2009, 02:46 AM   #10
TEX
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 1999
Location: Texas
Posts: 197
My initial exposure to it was Gunsite way back in the last century. It went something like this

1. Lock slide to rear
2. Yank out in service magazine and dispose of
3. Hand cycle slide three times
4. Insert fresh magazine
5. Cycle slide to load gun

Gabe Suarez taught a version where you did not try to lock the slide back, but simultaneously pressed in the mag release and started hand cycling the slide at which point the magazine should (hopefully) fall out. From there you would cycle the slide a couple of more times, insert a fresh magazine and then cycle the slide to load the pistol.

In both of the above methods you are dumping a magazine that; one, still has some ammo in it, and two, probably wasn’t the cause of the double feed. I can see in a military or even police setting, where you have multiple magazines, this having some merit. However, in a civilian setting, I think it is a very bad idea to dump that magazine for a number of reasons; you have a limited supply of ammunition, the mag probably wasn’t the problem, and what happens if you go for your spare mag and it isn’t there because in the excitement you either already used it or it was dislodged.

Farnam’s insistence in always locking the slide back is not a bad idea, but I also believe in the old “Fear the man who only owns one gun because he probably knows well how to use it’. Besides it reliability, one of the reasons I like a Glock is because I can strip the mag on a double feed malfunction without locking the slide back. I have tried the different methods and found what works for me, which is…

1. Rip the magazine out and place it between the fingers of the hand already gripping the gun.

2. Cycle the slide a couple of times trying to keep one of my fingers pressed down hard on the extractor as I move the slide to the rear.

3. Re-insert the magazine that came out of the gun

4. Cycle the slide to load the gun.

In my experience, the vast majority of double feeds are caused by a failure to extract and not by funky magazine feed lips. I think most schools now teach you to hold on to the magazine and not discard it.

Also, unlike many I don’t think you should spend any time diagnosing the malfunction and should never look at the gun, although many instructors who should know better still teach you to look at the gun.

If a gun does not go bang when you want it to, go straight into the malfunction clearance routine most likely to get it working again, which is the roll, slap and rack. This works for failures to fire, stove pipes and unseated cartridges. If this doesn’t work go straight to a double feed clearance routine. Chances are that if you do in fact have a double feed you will feel it during the rack part of the first attempted solution and can go straight to the double feed remedy from there. Sometimes if it is a not fully chambered round, the slap will get th eround all the way in without forcing it and you will feel it, then you can go from there. These more subtle indictors come with practice and familiarity with the pistol. When you get to the point that you have already cleared a failure to fire almost before your conscious brain is aware of it, and are half way through a double feed clearance before the same, then you are on the right track. It takes a ton of practice however. Although some schools may still teach it, I think it is a really bad idea to ever slap the rear of the slide if the cartridge has not chambered all the way. Although not highly likely, you just may end up with a very difficult double feed and have only exasperated the problem, not fixed it.

The reason you should never look at the gun to try and diagnose the malfunction, is four fold; that part of you brain responsible for complex thinking may be disengaged, you don’t have the time luxury to do this, it may quite likely be too dark to see anyway, and you NEVER want to take your eyes off the threat. The only thing worse than a Goblin, is a Goblin you don’t know the location of but do know is out there. Doom on you. If I had it my way I would teach malfunction clearances with Elizabethan collars on the students like they use on dogs to keep them from chewing on themselves : )

TEX

Others may disagree, but that is my humble two cents on the issue.
__________________
If 10% is good enough for God, why isn't it good enough for the Internal Revenue Service?

Last edited by TEX; April 17, 2009 at 02:53 AM.
TEX is offline  
Old April 17, 2009, 05:55 AM   #11
matthew temkin
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 369
If the bad guy is very close and cover is not an option--and you have no BUG--then charge the SOB and employ hand to hand methods along with your (now) 1-2 pound club.
As so many have said before, it's a FIGHT--not a GUNfight.
matthew temkin is offline  
Old April 17, 2009, 06:04 AM   #12
ChCx91
Member
 
Join Date: April 17, 2009
Posts: 33
matthew temkin said:
Quote:
If the bad guy is very close and cover is not an option--and you have no BUG--then charge the SOB and employ hand to hand methods along with your (now) 1-2 pound club.
As so many have said before, it's a FIGHT--not a GUNfight.
true. if you are close enough for hand to hand combat, that pistol in your hand can do ALOT of damage. I believe there is actually a technique where you can still grip the gun as if you are going to shoot it, but punch with it making the port of the barrel the striking point; does more damage than an elbow strike and probably hurts just as bad, if not worse given the amount of bullets recently fired from it making it hot hot hot

you could also just stick that aforementioned hot barrel port right into the two legged goblin's eye socket, mouth, etc. that'll put some hair on his fudge cusions
ChCx91 is offline  
Old April 19, 2009, 11:44 AM   #13
Erik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 1999
Location: America
Posts: 3,479
"If a gun does not go bang when you want it to, go straight into the malfunction clearance routine most likely to get it working again, which is the roll, slap and rack. This works for failures to fire, stove pipes and unseated cartridges. If this doesn’t work go straight to a double feed clearance routine."

Agreed. There is no reason to repeat failure drills which are not fixing the problem. This assumes that the failure drills are being performed correctly.

The double feed clearance routine should be one "most likely to get it working again." Which means it should include a new magazine. For long arms, as noted, a glance may be in order.

1. Lock the slide back
2. Extract magazine*
3. Run the action 3 times
4. Insert a magazine**
5. Rack the slide and shoot

* The retention of the magazine at #2 or not should be dictated by the circumstances.

** A fresh magazine.
__________________
Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective

Last edited by Erik; April 19, 2009 at 06:45 PM.
Erik is offline  
Old April 22, 2009, 06:09 PM   #14
Kmar40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 668
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/vi...nction-245593/
Kmar40 is offline  
Old April 22, 2009, 06:23 PM   #15
Kmar40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 668
Quote:
In the army we were taught a method called S.P.O.R.T.S.
Slap the magazine up
Pull the magazined out
Obeserve the chamber
Replace the magazine
Tap the magazine
Shoot
I think you are getting a little rusty, cause that isn't the proper sports procedure.

Quote:
For the M16 the procedure we teach is:
Slap the mag
Pull the charging handle
Observe the chamber
Release charging handle
Tap forward assist
Shoot
This is the correct SPORTS procedure-- which is often called Slap-Rack-Squeeze/Tap-Rack-Shoot or various similar things but it doesn't deal with a double feed. Don't get me wrong, your malfunction drill should always begin with Slap-Rack-Squeeze/Tap-Rack-Squeeze/SPORTS but it doesn't always work.

My next procedure is to
Rip the magazine (I tuck the magazine away, either in my duty belt or in a pocket because I'm not going to reuse that mag unless I go through my other mags first. It also gives me the ability to use both hands on the weapon)
Rack the slide
Reinsert a fresh magazine
Address any threats.

I don't typically rack it three times because I don't remember being taught that except to administratively clear a weapon. LE usually don't end the shooting session with a cleared weapon sitting on the bench, we usually have weapons. I may reconsider that racking three times bit since everyone seems to be teaching it.

No matter what you do, you must be do it quickly.

I agree that moving to a secondary weapon is the best option. We practice that all the time, but not everyone carries (or is allowed to carry) a backup. The decision of whether or not to move to a backup weapon (BUG, knife, baton, spray, radio, potted plant, chair, fist, etc) or to clear the malfunction must also be made quickly.

Just as you should practice (or simulate at least if you are at a restrictive range) moving laterally while shooting, you should also be moving laterally or to the closest cover while completing the tap-rack-squeeze or unload-load drill.

Last edited by Kmar40; April 22, 2009 at 06:46 PM.
Kmar40 is offline  
Old April 22, 2009, 06:45 PM   #16
w_houle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 29, 2007
Location: Junction City, KS
Posts: 1,389
I don't think I am quite understanding what a double feed is, or maybe my allergies aren't allowing me to think right now. The only problem I can think of that I have is Fail to eject and the spent brass fighting with the live round as to who goes into the chamber, or when the bullet gets ahead of the extractor. Either than that, ???
__________________
How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished?
w_houle is offline  
Old April 22, 2009, 06:52 PM   #17
Hellbilly5000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 24, 2009
Location: RGV, Tx
Posts: 787
Kmar When i was in the army I was an MP. We carried the m9 (still hate them to this day) they taught us two diffrent versions of the s.p.o.r.ts. 1 for the m-16 and 1 for the hand gun, to deal with malfunctions.
__________________
And death climbs the steps one by one, To give you the rose that's been burnt by her son, Point me to the sky above I can't get there on my own, Walk me through the graveyard Dig up her bones
Hellbilly5000 is offline  
Old April 22, 2009, 07:08 PM   #18
Kmar40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 668
Hmmm.... I was an firearms instructor with an MP unit (for a short while) also. Maybe your guy was ad-libbing or maybe my memory is bad. Either is a possibility.
Has anyone seen my keys?

The secondary drill, rip the magazine, pull the charging handle/rack the slide, reinsert the magazine, slap magazine, pull the charging handle/rack the slide, tap FA-- if it will make you feel better, and squeeze is basically the same for either an M16 and M9 or any other magazine fed weapon.

I certainly don't have any qualms with the lock the slide back first crowd either. Regardless, it should be instinctive and quick.

However, teaching two mnemonics called SPORTS seems problematic to me.

Last edited by Kmar40; April 22, 2009 at 07:14 PM.
Kmar40 is offline  
Old April 22, 2009, 07:23 PM   #19
Hellbilly5000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 24, 2009
Location: RGV, Tx
Posts: 787
It could be they were ad libbing put the principal is still the same, It was taught to us during our mp school training at ft McClellan Alabama
__________________
And death climbs the steps one by one, To give you the rose that's been burnt by her son, Point me to the sky above I can't get there on my own, Walk me through the graveyard Dig up her bones
Hellbilly5000 is offline  
Old April 22, 2009, 07:32 PM   #20
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,959
w houle ~

Picture & explanation here: www.corneredcat.com/RunGun/doublefeed.aspx

Hope it helps.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old April 22, 2009, 07:58 PM   #21
w_houle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 29, 2007
Location: Junction City, KS
Posts: 1,389
Thanks Kathy, I had that problem with a 1911 I no longer have, but the problem was that I could rack it a half dozen times and it seemed that the extractor just didn't want to grab hold, but if I locked the slide back and tap on the slide the round would fall out.
__________________
How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished?
w_houle is offline  
Old April 23, 2009, 12:45 AM   #22
Kyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Posts: 897
sometimes the mag won't come out cause of the pressure of the slide on the stuck bullet that is connected to the mag. Let off pressure first with locking the slide back. It is way less of a gamble.
Kyo is offline  
Old April 23, 2009, 03:04 AM   #23
SquidWarrior
Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2009
Posts: 33
Depending on how bad the double feed is. If you carry a bug, go for it. If you are not, tap and rack. If there is no bang after that, you need to lower your weapong and go hands on. Just pray that murphy isnt paying attention when **** hits the fan.
SquidWarrior is offline  
Old April 24, 2009, 08:08 PM   #24
quinn2187
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2008
Location: ohio
Posts: 110
in a self defense situation chances are you are very close to the bad guy excanging rounds very quickly. tap-rack-bang is what i was always taught. its fast and should correct "most" malfunctions. feel free to add moving to cover in there where ever it fits your situation. and if super close throw the dang thing at the bad guys head and be right on its heels getting hands on him.
quinn2187 is offline  
Old April 24, 2009, 08:26 PM   #25
Doc TH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2005
Posts: 509
double feed malfunction

Shoot a revolver.
Doc TH is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12610 seconds with 9 queries