The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 12, 2009, 06:16 PM   #1
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 12,491
Stockton CA militia being formed

Anybody see this yet?

http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.d...NEWS/904070327

Concerned resident aims to form armed militia to patrol Stockton

By David Siders
Record Staff Writer
April 07, 2009 6:00 AM

STOCKTON - A retired truck driver and Vietnam War veteran said Monday that he is forming an armed militia - mostly men with rifles and armbands, four to a car - to patrol Stockton this summer, when at least 43 police officers are to be laid off.

Alan Pettet, 66, said he has recruited 18 men, most of whom are ex-military. He said the militia will train at a firing range and "activate" if the city lays off any officer, as it intends by July 1.

The likelihood of an armed militia materializing is uncertain - there are legal concerns, and posturing to influence City Hall is not uncommon - but for a neighborhood activist even to advance such a proposal was indicative of frustration about Stockton's awful budget forecast. The City Council is expected by July 1, the start of fiscal 2009-10, to order police layoffs and spending reductions citywide to balance a general fund budget that is otherwise expected to be $31million in deficit by June 2010.

Pettet, a midtown neighborhood activist who has a Desert Eagle pistol, said militiamen will detain suspected criminals and call police to arrest them. They will wear armbands and will patrol in a car marked by a magnetic sign, he said.

"It's going to be 'Stockton Armed Militia,'" Pettet said. "'SAM' for short."

Neither the Police Department nor the city administration was impressed.

"We are not at the point that we need to have armed militias patrolling Stockton," Vice Mayor Kathy Miller said.

Mayor Ann Johnston said, "Oh, no no no no, no no no. ... We don't want armed citizens out there who are not trained."

That it is illegal in most circumstances in California to carry a loaded firearm in one's car did not disturb Pettet.

"If you look under the Constitution, a militia can be formed," he said. "Watch and see. Who's going to stop us?"

Attorney and anti-blight activist Ron Stein, who is a friend of Pettet's and has been advising him, said the militia will conform to state law, perhaps by having members seek permits to carry concealed handguns.

"You've got to do what you've got to do," Stein said.

Pettet said the militia will bill the city $350 per hour for its services. City Attorney Ren Nosky said he knew of no legal basis requiring the city to pay such a bill.

Nosky had other reservations, too.

"I just don't know if that's in the best interest of these gentlemen, from a safety perspective," he said. "We have a concern about the level of training that these gentlemen have, if any, especially in light of the firearms that they say they're going to be carrying."

Police encourage people to report crimes and form Neighborhood Watch groups, said Officer Pete Smith, a department spokesman. To form a militia is "taking it to another level," he said.

"It's ill advised," he said.

Stockton's violent crime rate is among the highest in the state. (Emphasis mine) Stein and Pettet are critical of a budget proposal by City Manager Gordon Palmer that would require laying off at least 43 of the city's 403 police officers.

"We've got to protect ourselves," Stein said. "We are in the wild, wild West when you take people who are supposed to protect us off the street."

The telephone number Pettet is using for the militia is that of midtown's Safe Neighborhood Action Group, a group formed in the 1990s.

"You've reached the Safe Neighborhood Action Group," a recording at that number said. "Helping to protect Stockton citizens from their mayor and City Council."
chris in va is offline  
Old April 12, 2009, 06:36 PM   #2
Hirlau
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 1, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 296
GOOD !
Hirlau is offline  
Old April 13, 2009, 04:38 PM   #3
tiberius10721
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2008
Posts: 228
Hell ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!sign me up !!!!!!!!!!!!
tiberius10721 is offline  
Old April 13, 2009, 04:57 PM   #4
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
That it is illegal in most circumstances in California to carry a loaded firearm in one's car did not disturb Pettet.

"If you look under the Constitution, a militia can be formed," he said. "Watch and see. Who's going to stop us?"
I admire the courage of their convictions. I hope when they are convicted that they get locked up and the key gets thrown away, like we should lock up every other armed criminal.

Being white and calling yourself a militia does not make you less of a thug.

So tactically, when you are legally armed and some fat guy in BDUs with a gun approaches you in a hostile manner, what do you do?

WildwhatadisgracetogunownersAlaska ™
Wildalaska is offline  
Old April 13, 2009, 05:21 PM   #5
dm1333
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2005
Posts: 400
Quote:
Pettet said the militia will bill the city $350 per hour for its services. City Attorney Ren Nosky said he knew of no legal basis requiring the city to pay such a bill.

That is all that needs to be said.:barf:
dm1333 is offline  
Old April 13, 2009, 08:18 PM   #6
Csspecs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2005
Posts: 1,111
Quote:

Pettet said the militia will bill the city $350 per hour for its services. City Attorney Ren Nosky said he knew of no legal basis requiring the city to pay such a bill.

And here I had the feeling like it was for the good of people not to charge the city chunks of cash.
Csspecs is offline  
Old April 13, 2009, 09:49 PM   #7
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,759
they aren't expecting the city to pay. they are just bringing attention to the fact that they are "performing a service"
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old April 13, 2009, 09:53 PM   #8
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,759
so, is there any way for a non-resident to become an associate member? All I want is a bumper sticker...
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old April 13, 2009, 10:03 PM   #9
teeroux
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Posts: 1,489
Quote:
So tactically, when you are legally armed and some fat guy in BDUs with a gun approaches you in a hostile manner, what do you do?
Fat guy is gonna have a bad day he is not a police officer he is a civillian like me, he is not sactioned by any form goverment which means he doesn't have any offical duty to perform and I will have no duty to comply to someone just cause his wacko leader says so. He can leave me alone or be shot.

Also after having shot an armband wearin fool I would have to assume everyone else with an armband and is armed or just in large number is out to harm me to thus they will also be shot.
teeroux is offline  
Old April 13, 2009, 10:22 PM   #10
Tennessee Gentleman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,611
Time to post

My famous militia picture:




__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted."
Anonymous Soldier.
Tennessee Gentleman is offline  
Old April 13, 2009, 10:53 PM   #11
Gbro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,056
Tennessee Gentleman,
You the one with the BFR???
__________________
Gbro
CGVS
For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18
Gbro is offline  
Old April 13, 2009, 11:24 PM   #12
warnerwh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2009
Posts: 278
Do you guys know these people? How do you know they're a bunch of idiots. I have friends in their sixties and I would be more than happy to have them patrol the streets if they wanted to. I'm sure they're much more competent than a considerable percentage on this board. The people are intelligent and competent people. It is lawful to perform a citizen's arrest. You don't have to be a cop.

I just want to know how you can criticize people you know nothing about. Maybe you should give up your CCW's or maybe everybody should because why should citizens be doing things that cops do if they're not trained. I've never trained to be a cop but know first hand how I deal with myself when my system goes into the fight or flight mode. I'm not convinced we know the whole story. I don't trust any journalist no matter what side they are on.
__________________
Portland, Or

Last edited by warnerwh; April 13, 2009 at 11:32 PM.
warnerwh is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 12:24 AM   #13
ChicagoTex
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2008
Location: DFW Metroplex
Posts: 1,909
Quote:
they aren't expecting the city to pay. they are just bringing attention to the fact that they are "performing a service"
A service they're not giving the city any choice in them performing. It's the same con as when magazine companies used to send you magazines in the mail unsolicited and then bill you for them.

These nuts are part of the problem, not the solution and should be treated like any other criminal organization/gang.

Quote:
Being white and calling yourself a militia does not make you less of a thug.
Couldn't agree more.
ChicagoTex is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 12:40 AM   #14
RedneckFur
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 14, 2007
Location: Sotheastern US
Posts: 1,421
Quote:
I admire the courage of their convictions. I hope when they are convicted that they get locked up and the key gets thrown away, like we should lock up every other armed criminal.
They're standing up for their rights, and trying to protect their comunity, and their families, in a city with a high crime rate thats about to have even less law inforcement. (whom we all know isnt even required by law to protect us.)
If they are armed criminals, they are some of the most noble armed criminals I've seen.
__________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
-George Orwell
RedneckFur is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 12:45 AM   #15
ChicagoTex
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2008
Location: DFW Metroplex
Posts: 1,909
Quote:
They're standing up for their rights
By breaking numerous laws...

Quote:
and trying to protect their comunity
by forcing themselves as vigilantes upon their own neighborhoods without anyone's asking or consent... and then billing them for it.

Quote:
If they are armed criminals, they are some of the most noble armed criminals I've seen.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I hope these boys like it hot.
ChicagoTex is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 02:20 AM   #16
teeroux
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Posts: 1,489
Quote:
It is lawful to perform a citizen's arrest
Yes it is lawful for a person who witnesses a crime to make an arrest.

What this is here is a group of people unsanctioned and incommisioned by any form of government fullfilling the role of law enforcement.

Quote:
I've never trained to be a cop
Yeah well these folks sure haven't either and I don't always trust the police to know every letter of the law much less let a group of joe blows policing the streets armed in the name of what they think is right.

Last I checked we elect who we want to be law enforcement and the folks we elect have say in who is law enforcement.

Neither seems to be the case here.
teeroux is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 02:52 AM   #17
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 12,491
You guys really crack me up.

Here's a question. As you know Stockton is a cesspool of crime compared to the national average. The CA .gov funds are in the red, and they're laying off over 10% of their police force.

So what would you have done, since you're against a citizen 'militia'? Curious.

Quote:
What this is here is a group of people unsanctioned and incommisioned by any form of government
Militias aren't formed by government.

Definition of 'militia'...

Quote:
The term militia is commonly used today to refer to a military force composed of ordinary citizens to provide defense, emergency law enforcement, (emphasis mine) or paramilitary service, in times of emergency without being paid a regular salary or committed to a fixed term of service
chris in va is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 03:34 AM   #18
teeroux
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Posts: 1,489
Oh well I guess it just depends on location.

Last folks got together and formed a private militia around these parts I recall called themselves the ku klux klan and we all know they sure thought they were doing the right thing too.

Quote:
Militias aren't formed by government.
Some are next time you use wiki try to read the whole thing.
teeroux is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 06:53 AM   #19
PoorSoulInJersey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 220
Quote:
"If you look under the Constitution, a militia can be formed," he said. "Watch and see. Who's going to stop us?"
I love when people hide behind "it's my right to do this, so I can do what I want!"

There is a fine line between citizens defending their homes (a good thing) and a bunch of vigilantes taking the law in their own hands (a bad thing).

These guys would have no legal authority to do anything. They can't pull someone over, they can't forcibly detain anyone (a citizen's arrest doesn't mean you can handcuff someone and lock them up somewhere or hold them at gunpoint), they can't claim self defense if they chase after someone. Heck, they can't even legally carry guns. Just going on patrol while armed could land them in jail.

What exactly is it that you expect them to do?

These people, who appear to have the best of intentions and only want to be safe in their homes, could very well find themselves in jail facing felony charges sooner than the people they are trying to protect themselves from. Once that happens, then the criminals really know which houses aren't protected, since it WILL make the news when some guy on patrol gets arrested. There's a big difference between being armed in your home, ready to defend it, and going looking for people.

There's a little bit of "game theory" to consider here. What will the BGs do in response? Will they start a little vigilante justice of their own against the militia members? Or will they just leave?

It almost sounds like the plot of a movie we'd end up making fun of. "A small town, frustrated with lack of police protection, takes the law into its own hands."

What would I do if it was my neighborhood? If my town was that bad, I'd move. The neighborhood won't be cleaned up by a few people going on patrol, especially with no law enforcement. I'm not going to get myself arrested, leaving my family REALLY undefended.

Quote:
If they are armed criminals, they are some of the most noble armed criminals I've seen.
Therein lies the worst part about this situation. I totally agree with what they want to do: defend their homes, families, and neighborhoods.

It stinks that they are breaking the law as well, in a very visible way, and could probably end up in jail for it.

Last edited by PoorSoulInJersey; April 14, 2009 at 08:00 AM.
PoorSoulInJersey is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 07:26 AM   #20
Bud Helms
Staff
 
Join Date: December 31, 1999
Location: Middle Georgia
Posts: 12,995
An interesting division of opinions on this one. Militia-related discussions usually devolve quickly into senseless arguments.

As long as this remains civil, I think it might stay open, but it will have to be in the Law & Civil Rights forum.

Moving now.
__________________
"The irony of the Information Age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion." - John Lawton, speaking to the American Association of Broadcast Journalists in 1995
Bud Helms is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 07:55 AM   #21
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
Quote:
They can't pull someone over, they can't forcibly detain anyone (a citizen's arrest doesn't mean you can handcuff someone and lock them up somewhere or hold them at gunpoint), they can't claim self defense if they chase after someone.
Just one of the great reasons I will remain in florida!!! It is fully legal to do all of the above if a "Violent Felony" was witnessed by the Florida legal citizen!
Quote:
Heck, they can't even legally carry guns. Just going on patrol while armed could land them in jail.
And another of the many reasons I live in the "Gunshine" state!
The incredible "eyecandy" ranks right up there too!
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 08:35 AM   #22
orchidhunter
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2008
Posts: 320
Many California militias operate in probable violation of a state law banning paramilitary organizations. orchidhunter
orchidhunter is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 09:48 AM   #23
Tennessee Gentleman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gbro
Tennessee Gentleman, You the one with the BFR???
No, I took the picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris in va
Militias aren't formed by government.
Absolutely wrong. Any miltia in the US is by definition called and controlled by the government; state or federal. Absent that, the group in question is nothing more than an unauthorized paramilitary organization and probably illegal.
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted."
Anonymous Soldier.

Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; April 14, 2009 at 09:57 AM.
Tennessee Gentleman is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 10:02 AM   #24
PoorSoulInJersey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 220
Quote:
Just one of the great reasons I will remain in florida!!! It is fully legal to do all of the above if a "Violent Felony" was witnessed by the Florida legal citizen!
That's part of my concern. Breaking into a car, trespassing on someone's lawn (looking in the window), or wandering down a street with your hood up are all things that the militia group might try to stop someone for, but they are not violent felonies.

You'd have to catch someone just after seeing them kill someone in order to arrest them.
PoorSoulInJersey is offline  
Old April 14, 2009, 10:03 AM   #25
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
I wouldn't be surprised that most of the members of these militia groups are against the taxes that pay the police. In other words, they don't believe in government performing the functions that goverment exists for to begin with. Mind you, plenty of people, sometimes quite logically, are perfectly willing to eliminate lots of things that governments do. Schools? I don't have children; why should I pay taxes to support schools?

Eventually, with this line of reasoning, you will have private schools, private roads, and private security services. We have had all of those things at one time or another in one place or another.

Then there's military service. Everyone here probably loves the military and thinks, well, who knows what, but nobody thinks there ought to be a draft.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13299 seconds with 7 queries