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Old April 6, 2009, 04:27 PM   #51
grymster2007
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A poor grasp of english isn't enough to deport a naturalized citizen.
He should never have been naturalized. We have no obligation or even rational interest in naturalizing people who can't/won't integrate. A functional proficiency in the language of the realm is key to integration and should be a requirement.

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In any case, a failure to deport certain individuals who are naturalized citizens, hardly makes the list of fundamental causes of violence in our society.
I said "among the plethora of additional contributors"; a bit different from "fundamental causes".

My point being that in the case of Jiverly Wong, it would have been an easy one to prevent and more than a dozen people would be alive today if this guy had been deported just as soon as he demonstrated that he wouldn't/couldn't integrate. That was a long time ago.
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Old April 6, 2009, 04:30 PM   #52
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We have no obligation or even rational interest in naturalizing people who can't/won't integrate.
not sure where you get your info from, but that statement couldn't be farther from the truth. People are naturalized who can't/won't integrate ALL THE TIME.
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Old April 6, 2009, 04:43 PM   #53
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People are naturalized who can't/won't integrate ALL THE TIME.
And our obligation and/or interest in doing so would be what?
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Old April 6, 2009, 04:54 PM   #54
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Seung-Hui Cho; another example of a troubled individual who gave all sorts of clues that he was unstable and could have simply had his green card revoked, possibly saving the lives of 32 people. Again; my point is not that these people are the root cause, but rather that it would have been fairly easy to prevent the crimes they committed.
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Old April 6, 2009, 05:19 PM   #55
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This thread is starting to wander far afield.

Supreme Court decisions about religion, meanderings about immigrants when we have plenty of "American" shooters - the majority of them!

So it needs to get back on track to legit analysis rather than spouting off political opinions without validity.

As I said before - most of these cases fit a classic profile that has little to do with those factors.

I could easily say deport social conservatives as we had a couple of them go rampage lately - or is it because of an underlying pathology?

Geez.
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Old April 6, 2009, 06:03 PM   #56
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There is some excellent discussion going on here, recent tangential points notwithstanding.

I think most of us would agree that a properly naturalized citizen, whether fully integrated or not, does not represent a significant threat of causing a mass shooting, and certainly not beyond the rate of risk that exists for natural born citizens. If there is a statistical difference, it is very small, and may even fall in favor of the immigrants.

If that's where this thread is headed, I'll close it myself, if a moderator doesn't beat me to it.

I hope we can continue, as this has been illuminating.

Last edited by maestro pistolero; April 6, 2009 at 06:36 PM.
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Old April 6, 2009, 06:19 PM   #57
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I have a valid point, but so does Glenn.... I'll concede that I was "meandering" off topic. Sorry maestro. .

I'll stick to my main point now; lousy parenting. I really believe this to be the largest contributing factor.
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Old April 6, 2009, 06:36 PM   #58
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No apology necessary, thanks for chiming in.
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Old April 6, 2009, 07:23 PM   #59
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in my previous post i think i expressed my distaste for the "general media"... just another thought --- all the negatives piled up on top of one another in ones life can lead someone to the edge or shall we say "snap"... that point at which they think they have no alternative but to make every one in their immediate "social bubble" feel their pain...

again we ask,,,,,why "gun" violence???????

i think it is nothing more than what has been impressed in their minds... where did they ever get the idea to grab a gun and do the things they do...if there were no guns, only swords, or maybe just clubs and or rocks, dont you think the same things would happen? (well it has)....

as a culture we need to start promoting more positives in peoples lives, everyone we "touch"...even the small things make a difference... we need to start doing it soon, so concentrate on it


cheers!
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Old April 7, 2009, 10:03 AM   #60
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Folks act out based on models they see in part.

Look at the guy who was flying the Cessna so that the USAF would shoot him down. If it weren't for 9/11 - it wouldn't come to mind most likely.

Social cognitive learning theory clearly shows us that people can observe the outcomes of actions and mimic them.

The repeated coverage of Columbine, VT and other rampages reinforces the next rampager. He or she is driven by their underlying pathology but models their action on what they learned.

Every memorial, weeping parents and friends and pundits discussing the rampager reinforces some next one who sees him or herself generating the pain, being psychoanalyzed by some schmuck Dr. Phil, etc.

Legit experts have been beating the drum of not doing this media blitz but it falls on deaf ideas.

When a school has a big gathering and everyone waves candles, Mom cries on TV how Victim Biff and Tiffany were good kids (he was on the team and she was a cheerleader), the police chief thunders that the shooter was a coward and Dr. Phil-oid says he was disturbed (and if only we helped the poor soul) - the pathological person is vicariously rewarded for planning the next action. Seeing Mom cry over Biff and Tiff is rewarding to them.

Unfortunately, the world of sensationalist TV - it won't stop. How many other shooters and Octo-Moms (ban hi-cap Moms?) are now planning their actions?

That's what's going on - not the looney stuff (antigun plots, Supreme court, immigrants, etc.)

1. Underlying pathology
2. Life stresses that exaggerate the stresses and increase patholology (so losing your job, going nuts over politics, problems as an immigrant, being ditched by YOUR LADY, etc. are examples of a stressor)
3. Anger at some group and/or society - felt picked on or not supported by something or someone.
4. Modeling a violent action - so that they become an expressive killer and/or plan a suicide with hostile intent. That can come from video games, watching coverage of past rampages, focusing on weapons related media. They can focus on gun culture and weapons. More exposure to weapons probably interacts with these folks to enhance their violent ideation.
5. They intend to die a 'warriors' death' as compared to a lonely suicide - they want to make a point with their death - Revenge, change society to take into account their concerns (a weird and perverted altruistic motive).

That's the package.
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Old April 7, 2009, 10:37 AM   #61
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I think any gun owner has probably pontificated, either in person or online, that the current administration is going to try to either ban certain guns, make it difficult to buy, etc.

Using that fact, if anyone here went on a shooting spree, we could have dozens of witnesses saying that person was afraid, "Obama was going to take his/her guns."

Doesn't mean, in any way, that was the reason for the shooting spree. Just means that's the reason that will get spread through the media.
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Old April 7, 2009, 10:56 AM   #62
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When people group together (form a society) they tend to develop something called "rules of civilization". These rules are all the little accepted social quirks that identify someone as A) Part of this social group and B) behaving within acceptable parameters.

Put simply, it was a group-survival defense mechanism.

Along came "political-correctness" and our current litigation-happy society. Now pointing out that someone is behaving on, or well past, the fringe of acceptable behavior will get you a lawsuit and other problems.

So people are getting re-programmed to just "mind their own business" and the natural protective and corrective actions of "society" are being impeded.

So is it any wonder these fringe cases are not being handled or even acknowledged until it is too late?

Combine that behavior with the fact that studies have shown that a certain tiny, but astonishingly consistent, percentage of ANY population is "fringe" and multiply that percentage by a population of 300 MILLION people.

Now add in a dose of economic hardship and the stresses involved.

I'd say that's a pretty explosive mix of elements in it's own right irrespective of guns, bombs, knives, or automobiles.
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Old April 7, 2009, 11:43 AM   #63
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Hecate posted:
Quote:
It has nothing to do with any decline of the nuclear family.
The Columbine killers were both from "normal", well to do, nuclear families. As a matter of fact, one them had a mother who was very active in one of the local chapters of the Million Mom March which was championing more gun control. Maybe she should have championed more "kid" control. One of them had a lock on his bedroom door and there was the sawed off portion of a barrel from a shotgun on his dresser which was found during the investigation. If one of my kids had a paddle lock installed on his bedroom door, that lock would be sawed off post haste and the door would have been removed from then on. We aren't always our kids "friends". Sometimes, we have to be their parents.
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Old April 7, 2009, 11:49 AM   #64
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The Columbine killers were both from "normal", well to do, nuclear families. As a matter of fact, one them had a mother who was very active in one of the local chapters of the Million Mom March which was championing more gun control. Maybe she should have championed more "kid" control. One of them had a lock on his bedroom door and there was the sawed off portion of a barrel from a shotgun on his dresser which was found during the investigation. If one of my kids had a paddle lock installed on his bedroom door, that lock would be sawed off post haste and the door would have been removed from then on. We aren't always our kids "friends". Sometimes, we have to be their parents.
Just because a family all lives in one house doesn't mean that they're not "broken" or part of the "decline of the nuclear family" and it most certainly does not make them "normal".

Allowing a kid to have a padlock on his bedroom door is only the beginning of the problems in that house hold. Those people were strangers living in the same house. They were NOT a nuclear family in any sense but genetics.

Broken families have a well proven relationship with criminal behavior. "Broken" doesn't always mean separated.
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Old April 7, 2009, 11:52 AM   #65
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The Zacharias posted:
Quote:
We've seen the response from the media.

At new life church in Colorado in 07, a female usher had a CCW and took down a man with a rifle who had a grudge against the church, but not before he killed 4 people. The mainstream media actually made a pretty concerted effort to under-report to the greatest extent possible (nothing was heard after the initial story, if it was reported AT ALL). Not like these most recent shootings that are getting huge air time.

They dont want to demonstrate that guns can save lives because then they would lose ratings and viewers from the anti-gun community.
In addition to that event, there were two other events where people retrieved guns and then stopped further killings. One was in Jonesboro, AK I believe. There, a teacher retrieved a gun from car and stopped the shooter. I can't recall where the other one was, but in that case, two guys who were off duty law enforcement ran to their cars, retrieved their guns, and then stopped the killer. The media poo pood both of them. They don't want to steer their agenda off course by reporting the facts as they happened, unless those facts help to drive their agenda's forward and on course.
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Old April 7, 2009, 12:02 PM   #66
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Just because a family all lives in one house doesn't mean that they're not "broken" or part of the "decline of the nuclear family" and it most certainly does not make them "normal".
I don't disagree. However, I don't believe that just because kids live with a single parent for whatever reason is necessarily a contributing factor to increased risk of violence. That was my point. There are certainly two parent homes (nuclear family in most people's minds) that are dysfunctional. That would appear to be the case with the Columbine killers.
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Old April 7, 2009, 12:21 PM   #67
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However, I don't believe that just because kids live with a single parent for whatever reason is necessarily a contributing factor to increased risk of violence.
I agree, except that I will say that the lack of a father figure is unquestionably connected to criminal behavior. It certainly is not "just because" but it is undeniably a factor.
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Old April 7, 2009, 05:02 PM   #68
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Peetzakilla posted:
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I agree, except that I will say that the lack of a father figure is unquestionably connected to criminal behavior. It certainly is not "just because" but it is undeniably a factor.
I do agree that lack of a father figure is a factor in increasing the risk of criminal behavior, especially for young males. This is where the feminization of males will have a serious detrimental affect on boys growing up.

My wife was describing a commercial she saw the other day. It had to do with reuseable, cloth, grocery bags. A young boy and his father were in the commercial which showed them using one of these bags. My wife said at the end of the commercial was an audible message which said something to the effect of "Helping to make him a better man". She thought this was just pathetic. (Of course, being married to a "real man" such as me has obviously set a bias in her ).

So, to be better MEN, we need to be green and get the reusable cloth grocery bags? By whose judgement are we then "better men"? That's rather silly if you ask me. Now don't get me wrong. I see nothing wrong with using those reusable grocery bags, or recycling the paper ones. But doing those things does not necessarily make a male a "better man". There are more important criteria than that, IMO. Teaching your son how to safely handle firearms would make one a "better man" as far as I'm concerned. Being a scout leader, teaching your son right from wrong, coaching sports, teaching your son manners, etc. are all more important than reusable grocery bags. Sheesh.
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Old April 7, 2009, 05:08 PM   #69
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Freudian misunderstood psychobabble and wandering off track.

Thus, I'm closing it down to maintain the integrity of earlier parts of the discussion.

I did warn that this was a path to the chopping block.
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