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Old April 2, 2009, 11:15 AM   #26
bub75
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No, it's not any better today and maybe worse.

I an a firearms instructor for my small PD (6 full-time including Chief and another 8 part-time). Firearms policy is pretty lenient- you can carry basically anything you want excepting SA-only and Magnums, minimum duty gun caliber .38/9mm. Dept has some issue guns if you want them, a couple old 1st Gen G17 or some newer Beretta 92FS.

Most buy their own guns, with Glock of various calibers (9mm and .40) dominating. Other guns include 2 Glock 21 (one mine), one Sig P226, one S&W 3rd Gen 9mm (I can't remember what model # off the top of my head) and one old timer still carrying a S&W Model 66 revolver. Most at least keep their guns rust-free and free of the bigger chunks of debris, but that would be the extent of their efforts. The two guys currently carrying Dept issue guns (1 G17, 1 92FS) definately aren't gun guys and the condition of their guns shows this. I have never seen a Glock rust, but this Officer's G17 is showing some rust on the internals (what you can see for all the dirt and filth that hasn't been cleaned in far too long) from lack of care that borders on abuse. The one carrying the 92FS isn't much better, with rust spots on the barrel, trigger, slide stop, safety and takedown lever. The problem is, since they aren't gun guys, they just don't care at all. The gun is merely another tool that they have to wear on their belt when they work, and their qualification scores show it, too. They can't be bothered to maintain their guns or practice if the Dept won't pay them to.

The Chief is no better. With budget cuts, we qualify once a year. That's it, once a year. The Dept will not provide practice ammo, either, which means that even those who care to some extent do not go out and practice. There are only two or three of us who care enough to go out and practice at our own expense. Also, the Chief will not let us (myself and the other instructors) do anything about the lack of care to the weapons. Given this, what can you do? You can't make them care when no one else cares or lacks the will to make them care through disciplinary measures.

This is the way it is at our small Dept. I can only imagine what it is like at bigger Depts. Treating guns like this ought to be criminal!

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Old April 2, 2009, 11:31 AM   #27
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Hirlau you are an effin riot! lol

So I have ran into policemen around 7-11's parks, what have you, and we talk and talk, some consider their gun a tool, which it is, it has the same value to them as their ticket holder. Most of then cops around here, they are just doing their job, i was talking to one, he had no idea what engine was in his Crown Vic, had no idea at all, most have no idea what frequency their radio is on, and most just swoosh a few swabs of the gun brush and the guns clean.
Is this a bad thing? NO. Why because we have no crime, due to police officers having no idea what the tools of their job are? wrong again, they have communication skills, that's all that matters when you are a police officer. Now, I would know what the tools are in my job are for, how they are designed, ect ect, but i know that the officers in my neighborhood, don't care, all they care about is the town and the people in it.
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Old April 2, 2009, 01:48 PM   #28
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Do all cops treat their guns like crap? No. Do most? No. Do many? Maybe. Do some? Absolutely. At least that has been my observation.

So long as they are properly cleaned, lubed, and maintained the rest (largely cosmetics) doesn't matter anyway.

Which brings me to a this:

A friend of mine with some rather well maintained and infrequently shot safe queens was aghast at the appearance of my service pistol, with it's holster wear, scrapes and dings; an other wise well maintained pistol mind you. "Where's your new one?" "That IS my new one." "That's a shame." "Whatever..." A conversation to that effect. I shoot my beater better than he shoots his safe queens. I shoot his safe queens better than he shoots them, too, as it turns out. I imagine if mine were in a pile of excised firearms most interested in cosmetics would pass it over without picking it up. Hell, I probably would too if I were shopping for the closest to NIB I could find. But it would be a mistake. The moral, if any? Don't always judge a book by its cover.
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Old April 2, 2009, 01:52 PM   #29
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Maybe you should stop wearing those fuzzy, pink sweaters?
You should know it's a fuzzy blue sweater.
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Old April 2, 2009, 02:30 PM   #30
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You should see how the military treats their boots and their weapons.
been there, done that.

my gun was always cleaned as soon as the missions were over, or at least dusted off if there was no time for a good cleaning, and i made my team do the same.
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Old April 2, 2009, 02:42 PM   #31
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been there, done that.
I know the drill as well....I am active duty. The point I am making is that military as well as LE weapons, like boots, are used everyday and used like the tool that they are. This is why areas of parkerizing or bluing are worn away along edges...as well why dings and scratches should be found on any piece that comes out of the armory that isnt brand new.
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Old April 2, 2009, 02:58 PM   #32
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if i was a cop, armed guard, etc... i would consider my sidearm as a peice of life support equipment.
Most cops do too for the first couple years.

On a serious note, if all the weapons in that department looked like you describe then the Chief should be fired...............

In the day of the blue steel revolvers with wooden grips almost everybody’s weapon looked a little worse for wear. Exposed holsters have a tendency to bang into anything and everything you walk by, roll over or stand next to. Motor cops weapons vibrated in the holster so bad they needed reblueing every few years. Stainless steel and rubber grips solved a lot of those problems.
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Old April 2, 2009, 03:25 PM   #33
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I always thought of both my issue mod 15 and personal backup mod 19 as my lifelines and took care of them especially in bad weather.
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Old April 2, 2009, 04:37 PM   #34
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are you KIDDING

Quote:
they have communication skills, that's all that matters when you are a police officer.
They have what you say are "communication skills", but they don't know the ins and outs of their radios? Doesn't that qualify as a communication skill?

communications skills are not all that a police officer needs. if that were the case, they would not be carrying guns or driving in police interceptor crown vics. they'd ride around on bicycles and ask people to please drive more slowly as it is not safe to speed. Simply communicating only works on the decent part of society. The rough part of society demands that a possibility of force exists behind the communication. Police are there to protect.

If that's how your police force really is, I would be raising hell in city hall. You do realize your tax dollars go to supply these officers with things they don't even know how to use. Wouldn't you rather keep your money to buy your own guns and ammo, seeing as how YOU know how to use them?
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Old April 2, 2009, 04:46 PM   #35
Brian Pfleuger
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All the cops I know carry Glocks, used to be Berettas but I don't recall the condition of those. Anyway, the guys that I know all have guns that look all but new, minus a little holster wear maybe.
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Old April 2, 2009, 05:48 PM   #36
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I've seen a lot of off lease guns for sale, never a really dirty one, and I know this shop doesn't clean before they sell. I'm sure there are departments out there who are careless, or maybe the gun was stored in a poor condition until it was sold....

I did talk to a motorcycle cop who said he was having to clean his M&P constantly from all the dust during the dry season here.. poor guy
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Old April 3, 2009, 08:02 AM   #37
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Quote:
do all cops treat their guns like crap?

and not clean them too?
Of course, each and every cop is an exact cookie cutter copy of every other cop and all conform to the same negative stereotypes that are based on each of our own limited impressions of them.

And we question why the leftists think so poorly of gun owners.
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Old April 3, 2009, 01:58 PM   #38
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Of course, each and every cop is an exact cookie cutter copy of every other cop and all conform to the same negative stereotypes that are based on each of our own limited impressions of them.

And we question why the leftists think so poorly of gun owners.
Yeah, this is the reason I was reluctant to even reply to this thread. The thread title itself is ignorant, stereotypical, and designed to insipire hostility. It would be no different that going to a medicine forum and posting a thread titled, "Do all doctors get drunk before surgery?"

Anyways, I'll give my own 2 cents for the benefit of the other posters. Cops are just like everyone else. There is nothing magic that happens when they put on the badge that makes them morph into a Delta Force Ninja or a donut guzzling slob. Poll 10 joe citizen gun shooters at the range and I'm sure 1 will clean his bore after every ten rounds, 3 will clean it when they get home, 4 will clean it before their next trip to the range, and 2 will clean the gun annually.

Quote:
As a Sergeant, I conduct monthly inspections of my officer's pistols. Among the eight officers, only two are regular shooters due to SWAT duties. I have to stay on top of those two to keep their guns cleaned after shooting.
I'll echo this. As a part-time SWAT guy this has been my experience as well. My department issues SWAT officers a second duty pistol to keep with their SWAT gear (which is often stored separate from the patrol gear). My way of thinking is they gave us the second gun so we would only have to clean them 1/2 as often.
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Old April 4, 2009, 12:53 AM   #39
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I think most cops treat their guns like the rest of the equipment they carry - like tools. Their stuff is used, sometimes abused and maintained as best they can. I know in big cities & PD's they are really overworked. I don't think they neglect their gear on purpose it's just the priority it should be.
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Old April 4, 2009, 01:42 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
Here's how I cleaned my Baby:...
Thats wrong and disturbing in soo many ways.
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Old April 4, 2009, 05:19 PM   #41
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My neighbor is a LEO and he spends more time cleaning after a range trip than he does at the range. The last trip he would only go if I brought all the firearms as he didn't have time to be up all night cleaning his....LOL

Then again he is the only person I know that actually waxes his lawn tractor's deck...

He's just a bit OCD....just a bit
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Old April 4, 2009, 06:23 PM   #42
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Answer?

Yes, No & Maybe ...

Buy any used LE equipment and see how well it was treated by the cops using it everyday (car, radio, computer, shotgun, handgun, flashlight, handcuffs, etc.), especially if it was issued equipment.

Sure, I've seen a dismaying number of folks who would try to slip out on cleaning their weapons after a qualification or training session. "But I'll clean it at home, honest!" My inclination was to respond, "Fine, you can do that after you do it here first before you leave".

Some of them were successful when it came to avoiding cleaning their weapons, though, as sometimes became apparent.

I knew of more than one cop who found themselves at the scene of a shooting where someone died, and having a dirty service weapon in their possession made for some extra work so the lab could exclude their weapons as being involved. (Imagine the potentially sticky situation if the bullets responsible for the death couldn't be recovered at the scene, though.) As you might expect, the point was made that their service weapons would be cleaned after each qualification session thenceforth.

On the other hand, there's the other end of the extreme in way of the folks who are somewhat over-zealous and enthusiastic about cleaning & lubricating their weapons ... but who don't really have a clue how to do it properly. Happily and industriously 'cleaning away' and ending up with different problematic conditions, such as things that shouldn't be lubricated and are lubricated. ... Any opening in the weapon is treated like a zerk fitting. ... Slathering on solvent & lubricants as if they were washing a car without any concern for the liquids traveling into places that shouldn't be filled with excessive (or any) amounts of solvent or even be lubricated.

Detail stripping and delousing a K9 handler's weapon who may be somewhat 'less than casually interested' in proper weapon maintenance can be an experience. I always wanted to know where they kept that green-haired woolly mammoth responsible for all the green, hairy grunge, fur balls and congealed dog breath & saliva which accumulated inside the weapons.

Service weapons can get their assortment of dings, dents, scrapes, nicks, scratches, gouges, unidentified stains/discolorations and generally puzzling cosmetic additions, no question about it. Holster wear and personal body chemistry/acidic etching can be the least of the rigors to which they're subjected, too.

Why won't some folks report when their weapons are submerged in water???

Bottom line? I've had to correct fouling & improper user-related maintenance conditions that actually caused failures-to-function and even outright failures-to-fire when folks came through qualification ranges and discovered their weapons wouldn't function well or even fire. (Yes, they were usually coming in 'off the street' with it in that condition, albeit unknowingly).

No matter the fuss made, the cautionary logic presented, the resulting functioning issues resulting from neglect of maintenance or even administrative requirements (and potential disciplinary action) for failing to provide required user cleaning & maintenance ... some folks just aren't interested in taking care of their service weapons and find ways to get around doing so.

Somewhere in between those who neglect weapons, and those who think they know how to clean & maintain them better than the manufacturers who made them (but cause their own brand of problems while doing so) ... there's the middle ground of folks who follow the basic care & maintenance instructions they're given or learn at some point (and who actually bother to read an owner manual), or at least think to stop and ask for help if they're not sure about how to properly detail-strip, clean and lubricate their weapons.

And yes, it's always a pleasure when someone presents an issued weapon which has been properly and carefully maintained, and that person demonstrates an obvious understanding of why it's important to maintain service weapons so they're always ready to function in an optimal manner when needed.

I remember when I was a new cop and was told that issued weapons would not be accepted when turned in (for repair, exchange, etc.) unless they were clean and appeared properly maintained. The equipment officer would reject dirty & improperly maintained weapons and send folks away to go clean them before they could be turned in. Folks grumped about it then, too. Funny thing is, though, they didn't complain about being handed weapons in clean, lubricated and properly working condition ...

Just my thoughts ...
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Old April 5, 2009, 02:42 AM   #43
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"...do all cops treat their guns like crap?..." Most cops don't think about their service piece as anything but something heavy they have to lug around. The days of cops being 'firearms' guys/users are long over. Most of 'em are good guys, but most never saw a real firearm prior to getting hired. A degree has become more important.
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Old April 5, 2009, 04:16 AM   #44
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Hellbilly, I know exactly what you are talking about and lord I hated that holster. Thank god its not used anymore.
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Old April 5, 2009, 08:41 AM   #45
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Of course, each and every cop is an exact cookie cutter copy of every other cop and all conform to the same negative stereotypes that are based on each of our own limited impressions of them.
You forgot to mention the negative stereotypes about hide-bound revolver bulleye shooter, pseudo-macho tacticool auto-loader shooters, tinfoil hat EBR collectors, and mall-ninja security guards.

Only lever-action shooting hunters are normal -- and they are weird if they aren't fly fishermen too.
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Old April 5, 2009, 05:51 PM   #46
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There's been some good comment on this, and a couple of great stories to boot!

It's been my experience that cops tend to fall into a number of categories;
the ego types who think that carrying a firearm means they can treat people like dirt, and wearing the firearm makes them king of the streets (fortunately a very small minority); the firearms enthusiast, who looks after their equipment well and takes it seriously; the everyday cop to whom it's just another piece of gear to carry on their belt (probably the largest category here); the desk jockeys / house mouse types who only touch their firearm to qualify and don't even know where their holster is; and those who don't want to have anything to do with a firearm at all, and will find hundreds of excuses not to qualify with or carry their duty weapon.

Our standard service weapon is the Glock 22, and I know the armourers have some horror stories about the condition that the pistols are taken to the armoury in. ANd yeah - we only qualify once a year as well.

I believe that cleaning your firearm should be done every time you use it, regardless of if it's a target pistol used indoor or your duty weapon. If you're going to be away from it for a long time, give it a good going over before you store it - you might need it as soon as you return.
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Old April 5, 2009, 10:05 PM   #47
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I was showing some other Coppers my whiz bang XD45 and I was kept hopping to keep my gun from being pointed at me . I told him to use a little muzzle awareness and he had no clue. Point is, some Coppers don't have a clue.
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Old April 6, 2009, 08:51 PM   #48
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As a Firefighter/Paramedic I work with a lot of cops from many different size departments. There does seem to be a difference in the way many guys treat their guns but it isn't just confined to side arms. You see the condition of their car and uniform and the way they handle themselves on calls. I've never understood the cops that don't take a great interest in guns. The gun is the one tool in your tool box that can make the difference in how you end the shift. As a Paramedic in one of the busiest areas in the Northwest I have many tools that I use daily, check daily. I work for one of the most respected and imitated departments in the world. We have the highest cardiac arrest save rate on the planet (close to 50%) and we lead the world in medical studies and all major areas of pre-hospital medicine. We are the the best because of our training. Our requirements to maintain certification are 5 times greater than most departments, not just here in the US but world wide. We get paid a pretty good wage to do our job and we take pride in everything that we do (can't you hear the humility in my typing?) I think a lot of the cops are not supported well enough by their administration and they are over worked and under paid and it sometimes shows in how they care for their gear. I would be terrified to be a cop, to put that target on my back knowing that the bad guy or the average guy with a CWP in his wallet has a better chance of using his gun without experiencing a backlash from the community, possibly losing his job, being sued. So to answer the original question I'd say probably not. Sorry, I kinda rambled on a bit!
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Old April 7, 2009, 12:34 AM   #49
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Noobieshooter.
I beg to differ,You are not the best trained medics in the country.WA state has put emphasis on cardiac care for medics that's it.Not everybody dies from cardiac arrest.Most everything new in EMS comes out of Prince George CO. in Virginia.Read your J.E.M.S.I spent 28 years as FF/PM I do not recall ever having anyone from WA state coming and teaching any of the Medic/FF skills anywhere in CA.
The most copied F.D. in the world is not in WA state,try Phoenix.LA Co.NYC and a few others.Your wildland firefighting program comes from CA.as does everyone else's.As for pay no Fire Dept in WA is in the top 10.
Sorry could not let this go unrefuted.

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Old April 7, 2009, 02:23 AM   #50
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Longranger, I think you were a little hard on Noobie. WA State is by no means backwards. Might not have made the top ten in pay. I would think CA has that pretty well wrapped up. You are right, not all die from cardo, but there are a number of people who do. Who gives a rip where some idea comes from, but rather how well it's put to use. As a LEO I'm glad when our Ambulance people show up. I know the injured are going to get great care. This is the real bottom line.

I don't take as good of care of my side arm now after 17 years as I did when I was a little younger. I am a high power shooter (master) and won't let things get too far out of hand when it comes to cleaning. My duty pistol is a G-35 which is mine. It doesn't look new any more with the holster wear, but I keep it clean enough to do what it needs to do when I need it. I keep my had cuffs in good working order as I use those more than I do the pistol.

Before I bought the G-35, I carried a Springer 1911. I took it out of service because the once pretty blued 1911 looked like it had been thrown around the inside of a pickup floor. The 1911 still shoots and runs well. It eats everything I run though it. The Glock also has some holster wear but then who cares about a Glock?
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