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Old April 2, 2009, 05:39 PM   #26
Noz
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Cabela's

I bought an 1858 from Cabela's that was terrible. Casting voids and just generally poor work. Obviously has slipped past the quality control folks. I called them and their response was "Send it back. We will send out a new one with no charge for shipping and a credit for your shipping back to us."
I did and got a perfect one in 3 days.
I have bought several from them since.
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Old April 2, 2009, 08:44 PM   #27
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to the OP- the full frame Remington pattern is the strongest "original" BP gun- along with the modern pattern Ruger Old Army which is really a modern 20th century black powder gun. I've had zero problems with my Remington, and it was a "kit" Navy Arms gun I bought at Kmart back in 1981, for only $85 ! I took it out 2 weeks ago, and shot it until I ran out of lead bullets- and was topping the chambers off with Pyrodex, then packing the ball in until it was below the cylinder rim. It kicked like a mule, shot accurated, yet that doesn't even phase it, that's just how strong the Remington design is.

By comparison, the Colt open top, I've pulled the cylinder pin out of the frame on (2) of those 1851 Navy brass frame guns- and that was using the recommended mild loadings- and had to buy (2) new steel frames to fix both guns. By all means, do NOT get a brass frame gun, if you want to shoot it a lot. If you do get a Colt pattern, get a steel frame.

Weaknesses of the Colt- they seem to jam quicker from black powder fouling than the Remington. Actually the Remington never jams, it gets a little tight after a while from fouling, but keeps going. The Colts eventually stop firing because the cylinder jams from blackpowder fouling, and need to be cleaned.

The wedges on the Colt guns tend to bend/wear with heavy use, and then the guns develop a lot of cylinder-to-barrel clearance. My "fix" was, make my own wedge from hardened forged steel- custom filed to fit and hold the gun together tightly- that fixed it. (for now)

One big advantage of the Colt- they are beautiful, graceful looking guns ! They definitely have the edge over the Remington in the looks dept. The open top design is very pleasing to the eye. The Colts also have a smoother hammer action/cocking and better trigger pull, and more comfortable grips, esp. the 1851/1861 Navy design grips.

In the end, the Remington is stronger and more reliable, the Colt better looking/better balanced/handling. If you want the best of both worlds, get an 1873 Uberti blackpowder Colt Peacemaker cap/ball gun. It's basically a Peacemaker that is converted to cap/ball.
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Old April 2, 2009, 08:48 PM   #28
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Captain Crossman wrote:

Quote:
The wedges on the Colt guns tend to bend/wear
BENT wedges????

hOOEY!
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Old April 2, 2009, 08:53 PM   #29
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I also have several pietta's not a bad one in the bunch,also a few uberti's again all nice guns. As far as I can remember I've only ever had 1 real pos and it was a very old Lyman I bought at a department store back in the late 70's but I was young and did'nt know much back then,and I still thought that it was the coolest thing ever!I actualy shot that thing to pieces.Been hooked ever since.
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Old April 2, 2009, 10:09 PM   #30
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Quote:
the full frame Remington pattern is the strongest "original" BP gun...the Remington is stronger
I've seen this statement fairly often but I've never been able to get anyone to show me the numbers. I suspect it's because of the top strap - people tend to see that as a structurally determinant design while the Colt open top appears to be simply cantilevered off the bottom. The problem with that is the Colt's rather massive cylinder pin, or arbor, which has a fixed joint at one end and at least a pinned, if not fixed, joint at the other. That member is much, much stronger than the Remington counterpart which is pinned/free and effectively takes no loads. At the very least the Remington and Colt designs appear to be structurally equivalent when one considers the entire system. I'm just not yet convinced the Remington is actually stronger; equal maybe, in fact probably, but not stronger.
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Old April 2, 2009, 10:26 PM   #31
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Quote:
the full frame Remington pattern is the strongest "original" BP gun
You need to look at the arbor on the Colts. That is it's structural strength. A 1858 may be as strong, but stronger, I doubt it.

Quote:
By comparison, the Colt open top, I've pulled the cylinder pin out of the frame on (2) of those 1851 Navy brass frame guns- and that was using the recommended mild loadings- and had to buy (2) new steel frames to fix both guns. By all means, do NOT get a brass frame gun, if you want to shoot it a lot. If you do get a Colt pattern, get a steel frame.
The arbor tends to get pulled out from hammering the wedge in to tight. Brass frame revolvers are fine with in the recommended loads.

Quote:
The wedges on the Colt guns tend to bend/wear with heavy use,
How big of hammer are you using to beat the wedge in with? There are many old Colts with the original wedge still in excellent condition.

Quote:
My "fix" was, make my own wedge from hardened forged steel- custom filed to fit and hold the gun together tightly- that fixed it. (for now)
Sounds like you need to address the arbor and frame fit. Once properly fit you only need thumb pressure to insert the wedge. The wedge should be an almost zero wear item.

Quote:
the Colt- they are beautiful, graceful looking guns
Can't argue that.
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Old April 2, 2009, 10:41 PM   #32
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Quote Captain Crossman
Quote:
Weaknesses of the Colt- they seem to jam quicker from black powder fouling than the Remington. Actually the Remington never jams, it gets a little tight after a while from fouling, but keeps going. The Colts eventually stop firing because the cylinder jams from blackpowder fouling, and need to be cleaned.
I shoot Colt 1851 and 1861 Navies made by Pietta, Uberti & 2nd Gen Colt in CAS competitions on a regular basis. I just recently finished 15 stages over 3 days using a pair of 2nd Gen 1861 Navies. At the end of each days shooting, I wiped the outside of each pistol off and put the pistol back in it's gun rug & locked it in the Truck Vault. Each morning, I took them out of the gun rug, charged the cylinders and proceded to shoot 5 more stages. At the end of the match, the cylinder spun just as freely as it did when the match started. My lube of choice is Bore Butter and I make sure the arbor grooves are full.

I havent shot Remington repos in a number of years; but seen to remember removing the cylinder, wiping it and the cylinder pin down and adding lube every couple stages to keep it running. OK Hawg - Your turn.

+1 to Mykeal and MCBs comments also.
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Old April 3, 2009, 01:17 AM   #33
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The Colt/Rem statement is debatable...but what did Colt do in 1873 at the request of the Federal Gov?
And how many Open Top Cartridge Guns does Colt or anyone make today...actually the full frame design is more resilient ... and that lil' arbor lock pin don't snap nor the weld crack or break... in it's day and with C&B they were surely close...

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Old April 3, 2009, 01:57 AM   #34
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OK Hawg - Your turn.
Can't add nuthin to that except your Colt's run longer than mine does.
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Old April 3, 2009, 05:11 AM   #35
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I'd like to comment on Cabela's customer service, OUTSTANDING. I'm a picky guy, I admit it, and buying anything mail order is a gamble so I avoid it if possible. However if I can't "I pays my money and takes my chances" like everyone else. Cabela's has done right by me on more than one occasion.
I wish they would carry Uberti along with the Pietta line. I have both and think their both great guns. I don't care for all that stamping on the Pietta barrels and am willing to pay a little more for the Uberti not to have it staring me in the face :barf: The Walker that Cabela's carries is a Uberti the rest I believe are Piettas. That said I think the Pietta case colors are better.
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Old April 3, 2009, 09:28 AM   #36
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Quote:
The Colt/Rem statement is debatable...but what did Colt do in 1873 at the request of the Federal Gov?
And how many Open Top Cartridge Guns does Colt or anyone make today...actually the full frame design is more resilient ... and that lil' arbor lock pin don't snap nor the weld crack or break...
I think the Colt open top biggest weakness is the wedge. If it's loose you sure can beat things up. Plus the barrel/arbor fit is pretty critical. I haven't managed to shoot an arbor loose yet....."request of the Federal Gov?" You trust them?
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Old April 3, 2009, 11:46 AM   #37
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Quote SG:
Quote:
The Colt/Rem statement is debatable...but what did Colt do in 1873 at the request of the Federal Gov?
I believe that the only thing the Federal Government requested was a new pistol to replace the 1860 Army. Specs were that it was to be a single action, 6 shot revolver that fired a .45 caliber metallic cartridge.

William Mason had started working on the SAA in 1871 (which Colt initially called the New Model Army Metallic Cartridge Revolving Pistol). and placed samples in the hands of the Army Ordinance Department in Nov 1872. Smith and Wesson and Colt were the only companies that had revolvers that were tested & Colt won an initial contract for 8,000 pistols in 1873
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Old April 4, 2009, 10:58 PM   #38
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Quote:
request of the Federal Gov?" You trust them?
Then or Now? Either way when I was a a Soldier and if I were then what choice would I have?
Trust is relative in the Military ... I'm still around, and In God I Trust 8O)

Do I trust the Government know? LoL! Are you pullin' my walker?
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Old April 4, 2009, 11:04 PM   #39
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Quote:
Colt won an initial contract for 8,000 pistols in 1873
Like I said what did Colt do at the request of the Federal Government?
(Made 8,000 Colt 1873 SAA full framed Revolvers...) Right?
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Old April 5, 2009, 12:18 AM   #40
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They submitted pistols for testing. Fed gov't did not specify solid frame. Smith & Wesson submitted the break top American.
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Old April 5, 2009, 12:47 AM   #41
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Quote:
Fed gov't did not specify solid frame.
Where did I say the Govt. specified a solid frame?

Hell I thought I even may have used full frame with the SAA (maybe not)... your wording solid sorta hits the mark even better... 8O)
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Old April 5, 2009, 09:23 AM   #42
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Quote:
There are many old Colts with the original wedge still in excellent condition.
The 1851 .36 I just bought has the original wedge, with a matching serial number to the rest of the gun. The gun was made in 1861 and it's tight as can be. I mentioned this before somewhere- the wedge screw has an oversized head that makes tight contact with the wedge and acts as a depth set, as it was meant to do; the wedge will only go in so far until I tighten the screw.
I wonder about some of the Italian repro wedges and wedge slots in the frame - the exit slot on my 1860 .44 (Pietta) peened out when I drove the wedge in too far. The wedge screw has no contact at all with this wedge. Even so, should the metal have peened out from the wedge? I don't think that would have happened on an original.
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Old April 5, 2009, 03:50 PM   #43
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Peening, you say?

Welcome to the consumer-unfriendly world of (non-hardened) Italian steel.
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Old April 5, 2009, 04:39 PM   #44
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It's still a great gun. It was my first, I did some stupid things to it, but now we understand each other - I don't drive the wedge in too far and it doesn't peen.
I think older, used guns are the best values. You can get some good deals on guns (Piettas, Ubertis, ASM, even FIE) that have most of the bugs worked out.
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Old April 5, 2009, 04:59 PM   #45
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Most of the Colts I`ve bought used have had the bugs still in them and the scars of someones Idea of getting the wedge out with the ..........I need a bigger hammer frame of mind ..............They must have felt the same way about putting the wedge back in ...both sides were scared up pretty bad .......Lucky for me the Italian steel is soft enough the dings would sand out by hand with little effort ............
I use to try and warn newbies to make their first experience a 1858 Remington and then move up to the Colt open top .........
But there are some folks that say ...sure buy that sexy open top ...you can handle it !.....it isn`t rocket science !
So now I say go for it !
might be another cheap deal for me when I get the one I`m working on finished ....

Last edited by sundance44s; April 5, 2009 at 05:27 PM.
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Old April 5, 2009, 08:07 PM   #46
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I use the rim of .38 speciial brass to get my wedge out. Lay rim going the same direction of the wedge and a light tap with my knife handle gets it out. I have tried several different ways and this works the best for me. Being brass it doesn't scratch the gun.
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Old April 5, 2009, 09:35 PM   #47
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I have 14 BP firearms , this is the third one from Cabela.
About two years old and dead on accurate. (I am 60 and now prefer stainless as it gives me more cleaning time).
I have bought two here and never a problem. I do make my own BP and make my holsters as you can see(easy and a good complement to the hobby)
This as you can see is a new army 58, 8 inch.
Cabelas is excellent , I ordered 1000 primers and they sent 10's instead of 11's
No problem , they sent 1000 11's no charge! no i don't work for them.
If you should need advice on making your own BP or a holster email me.



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Old April 5, 2009, 09:51 PM   #48
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Quote:
I bought an 1858 from Cabela's that was terrible.
Had my first experience with Cabela's last week. I bought a Pietta New Model Pocket. Complete POS, barrel loose in frame, hammer too wide for the frame opening.

They took it back and credited me return shipping (about a dollar more than it actually cost), no questions asked.

Midway is excellent as well.
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Old April 5, 2009, 09:55 PM   #49
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Why the do the Italian's make copies of American BP Revolvers Why the hell doesn't somebody start a company in America and start making them out of American steel
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Old April 5, 2009, 10:06 PM   #50
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Go right ahead. Nobody's stopping you.
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