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Old March 31, 2009, 10:55 PM   #26
Double Naught Spy
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You have a hog problem yet you disagree with the facts of their biology and ability?
Quote:
Did you notice the state biologist that spoke several times?
I noticed the biologist. I also noticed the geneticist. She specifically stated that she didn't have the evidence to substantiate the claim the Russian boar connection. So much of the show was dedicated to saying that the changes in pigs were due to interbreeding with Russian boars and yet that absolute proof for this, the genetics, simply are not there...not yet anyway.

Yes, we do have hogs that resemble Russian boars. What was not considered in the show was if the similar characteristics discussed were a matter of genetic influx or evolutionary pressures. What pigs are most likely to survive and reproduce most successfully in the wild? Are they the shorter legged, shorter snouted, less aggressive, smaller pigs? Probably not. Those are the pigs likely being selected against, biologically speaking.

Did you notice how they identified a Russian boar on the game camera? That was one hell of an identification. They didn't get anything but eye shine. So you can't even identify the type of animal in the image, but they were able to identify it as a specific breed and noted features not in evidence such as long legs, long snout, weight, head size, etc. That isn't biology. That isn't good biology in the least.

The show also claimed that as a worst case scenario that the pig population could double every few months. Mathematically, that may be true, but then again, that isn't reality and so they are making a considerable sensationalized claim.

Strangely, the biologist noted that pigs can breed as early as 5 months of age and sows can produce 3 litters of an average of 6 young per litter ever 14 months and that there is nothing else out there that can keep up with that. What he is saying is that pigs have an "r selection" reproductive pattern (e.g., multiple large litters per year vs. K selected species that tend to produce smaller litters less frequently such as deer, for example). So while K selected species don't reproduce anywhere near as fast as hogs, there are many r selected species that reproduce as fast or faster than hogs. So, there are definitely other animals that can keep up with or surpass pig reproduction success.

So the worst case scenario for a lot of animal populations would have them breeding at rates much faster than hogs, mathematically speaking. In this regard, hogs are not unique.

I also noted how the show seemed to correlate the Pig Bomb in the US as being due to the influx of Russian boar genes into the non-Russian feral hog gene pool in recent years. Strangely, it was noted that there was a pig bomb phenomenon in the Old World as well. What influx of genetic material is being introduced there to cause their pig population explosion to co-occur with the one in the US?

So do I doubt the biology? That depends what you are asking. I doubt the biology expressed in the show that seemed to play up a lot of pseudo facts and innuendo that just don't have the biology behind them to be considered a valid claim. In short, they sensationalized the information considerably.
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Old March 31, 2009, 11:35 PM   #27
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First, I thank you for keeping this debate civil... I rather enjoy a good fair debate by two upstanding men...

Point by point...
Quote:
You have a hog problem yet you disagree with the facts of their biology and ability?
I mainly meant the speed of all feral hogs and growth potential of all feral hogs in general...

Quote:
Did you notice the state biologist that spoke several times?
While you bring up a good point I will address next, this statement was aimed at the poster who took it upon himself to assume these were homemade vids rather than professionally made discovery channel film.

Quote:
I noticed the biologist. I also noticed the geneticist. She specifically stated that she didn't have the evidence to substantiate the claim the Russian boar connection. So much of the show was dedicated to saying that the changes in pigs were due to interbreeding with Russian boars and yet that absolute proof for this, the genetics, simply are not there...not yet anyway.
Body shape aside, one give away is the coloration. the blond chin bar is one aspect that is breed specific as is the white band of the Hampshire or bright red of the duroc.... Another eur-asian (russian) trait is the pronounced high humped back above the shoulders...

Quote:
Yes, we do have hogs that resemble Russian boars. What was not considered in the show was if the similar characteristics discussed were a matter of genetic influx or evolutionary pressures. What pigs are most likely to survive and reproduce most successfully in the wild? Are they the shorter legged, shorter snouted, less aggressive, smaller pigs? Probably not. Those are the pigs likely being selected against, biologically speaking.
Hogs in feral state need only several generations to adapt pysically to their surroundings and survival needs. The longer legs, narrower body and long snout is present very soon as it aids travel and the long snout aids in rooting food. A barnyard hog develops shorter legs and wider body as well as short snout and wide head to take up more space at the feed trough. Feral hogs will revert to barnyard shape in just a few generations of being re-domesticated.

Quote:
Did you notice how they identified a Russian boar on the game camera? That was one hell of an identification. They didn't get anything but eye shine. So you can't even identify the type of animal in the image, but they were able to identify it as a specific breed and noted features not in evidence such as long legs, long snout, weight, head size, etc. That isn't biology. That isn't good biology in the least.
I not only took note of the game cam picture but all the hogs being cared for to preserve the specie in the minutes leading up to that point. I also noted the characteristics like coloration and the high humped back. the extra hairy body may or may not be climate adaptation as all feral swine is far hairier than the domestic raised hogs.

Quote:
The show also claimed that as a worst case scenario that the pig population could double every few months. Mathematically, that may be true, but then again, that isn't reality and so they are making a considerable sensationalized claim.
since there are no natural predators of feral hogs other than humans and they seem to be immune to even the most venomous snakes (they routinely eat rattlers) it is quite realistic. It is also true, plausible and expected for a sow to drop 18 pigs ever 14 months on average (not maximum) it is really an issue. Even with all the hog hunters in my area, we do not ever seem to reduce the numbers and there has never been much importation of any numbers of feral hogs of any breed since the spanish explorers....

Quote:
Strangely, the biologist noted that pigs can breed as early as 5 months of age and sows can produce 3 litters of an average of 6 young per litter ever 14 months and that there is nothing else out there that can keep up with that. What he is saying is that pigs have an "r selection" reproductive pattern (e.g., multiple large litters per year vs. K selected species that tend to produce smaller litters less frequently such as deer, for example). So while K selected species don't reproduce anywhere near as fast as hogs, there are many r selected species that reproduce as fast or faster than hogs. So, there are definitely other animals that can keep up with or surpass pig reproduction success. So the worst case scenario for a lot of animal populations would have them breeding at rates much faster than hogs, mathematically speaking. In this regard, hogs are not unique.
taken in verbatim context you are correct but if you realize that what wasn't said is there are no INVASIVE species with ZERO natural predators that are of this "R selection" type breeding at this rate. Rats, mice, rabbits, coons and possum all have a decent level of predation keeping their numbers in check... So they really are very unique...

Quote:
I also noted how the show seemed to correlate the Pig Bomb in the US as being due to the influx of Russian boar genes into the non-Russian feral hog gene pool in recent years. Strangely, it was noted that there was a pig bomb phenomenon in the Old World as well. What influx of genetic material is being introduced there to cause their pig population explosion to co-occur with the one in the US?
That is auto-answered if you realize that hogs don't have to swim from russia/asia to reach the "old world" of western europe. And the same "noble types" that introduced alot of russian blood to the eastern USA (the Metcalfs and Rockefellers come to mind here) in the early 20th century were of the same high brow society that were "royalty" that imported russian hogs from their home territory to the western european country side for the "sportsmen" of their time in the 1800's and/or before...

Quote:
So do I doubt the biology? That depends what you are asking. I doubt the biology expressed in the show that seemed to play up a lot of pseudo facts and innuendo that just don't have the biology behind them to be considered a valid claim. In short, they sensationalized the information considerably.
I will say that many areas of feral hog population have less of the russian type traits and more of the domestic breed traits. Both physical form and coloration as well as aggressive or passive behaviors. Some areas really show the breed specific coloration of their original preferred barnyard stock.

We also have the "hybrid tooth"...
http://www.hunting-in-texas.com/learnhogs.htm
Scroll down to "How old is that pig?"

One last thing I point out is that to prove the adaptability of feral swine, is in the offspring... whether or not any russian traits are present in the coloration, the young will likely be born with a reddish color with dark horizontal stripes like all whitetail deer are born spotted. This coloration will change as they ween to what ever they are going to be as youth and adults...
Thanks again and my regards to you and yours...
Brent
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Old April 1, 2009, 12:44 AM   #28
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dogo argentino

Probably wrong place Hogdogs, but I have read your posts regarding your use of bay and hold dogs. I happen to be watching a show that states dogos(were bred) to track and hold. Are u familiar with this breed? Do the dogos combine the bay and hold dogs into one, or is training the issue? Those dogos look amazing, too bad my wife loves labs.
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Old April 1, 2009, 01:02 AM   #29
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I am quite familiar with the Dogo Argentina. They are a multi use dog and jaguar is one of the prey they will hunt.
They can and do hunt on their own with out the need for bay dogs but it is not too common to see it done this way in North America as this ability requires a much larger parcel of land. Bay dogs are flat out much faster at closing distance silently. the dogo was designed for 10-100 thousand acre ranches.
One down side is that the American Blood lines are being hampered by "show breeders" watering down the intended uses. Another negative for me is that they often "fight" the prey which results in excessive injury to the hogs due to "re-biting" rather than a straight up hold. Bruised hams is a bad thing IMHO. Not all are like this by any means and many bulldogs don't make the cut for this same reason. Being a 110 to 140 pound dog they also can get buggered up in the thick stuff or unable to get through the barbed wire fast enough to keep up with the hog.
My biggest gripe against the breed is their Breed confirmation standards. The dog is only allowed a pirate patch or small spot of dark. Otherwise it must be all white. This is automatically culling a large number of dogs that would possibly be superior performers before they can be proven either way. Second is white dogs are carrying a recessive (i think that is the correct term) gene (but not albino) that seems to cause a higher percentage of deafness (like the dalmation and pure white domestic cats) and sensitive skin issues like sun sensitivity and food allergies. I have often asked Dogo breeders to supply me a few overly pigmented skin/ fur colored pups so I can have some bigger dogs for certain needs. None have cooperated. They are an awesome dog to look at and a good one is a monster on a hog! Nuttin like a 140 pound white bulldog!
Brent

Last edited by hogdogs; April 1, 2009 at 02:12 AM. Reason: Regarding recessive gene term
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Old April 1, 2009, 02:27 AM   #30
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The Game and Parks are trying to exterminate all of them here in Nebraska, and honestly they have done a pretty good job, something like 200 killed last year and only 50 something this year. A couple had tested positive for pseudo rabies though.

I have the answer to solve the problem though. Repeal the 1934 NFA law and lets go hunting Bacon for everyone.
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Old April 1, 2009, 06:41 AM   #31
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We also have the "hybrid tooth"...
http://www.hunting-in-texas.com/learnhogs.htm
Scroll down to "How old is that pig?"
That pig is 4 years old. Why? However, it is difficult to ascertain the age of the pig in that particular image because they don't show the 3rd molar (identified in non-dental terms elsewhere on the page as tooth #6).

FYI, you and I are arguing two different points, although you seen to have taken exception to my points because of the basis of your experience. The Pig Bomb show was generally a sensationalized show. What they were claiming based on what they presented didn't hold water in many cases. In other words, much of the info isn't "true info" as the thread title claims.

You are then backing up the show with what you see in the field. What you see in the field doesn't negate the sensationalization of the show...and you noted this much as well...

Quote:
taken in verbatim context you are correct but if you realize that what wasn't said ...
If you want to argue about things not said in the show, then it changes the course of the discussion. Are we talking about the sensationalized show that recreates unverified animals from eye shine and identifies specific characteristics not in evidence, or are we talking about what you see in the field?
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Old April 1, 2009, 09:13 AM   #32
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As for the age thing... I wasn't pointing to age, rather the hybrid tooth. 4 years old means they live a long healthy life but I was pointing out the presence of a tooth present only on russian or russian/domestic cross.

Since, in my experience, I do see the traits that suggest russian influence as well as having done as much research as my redneck self can muster over the last 6 years to find that many russian hogs were imported in the last hundred years for the purpose of supplying "sport hunting clubs" for the wealthy. There have been many descriptions of the managers of these clubs trying new methods to contain them with little luck. So the evidence I need to see that they have been here for a long time is right there.
I will look for some images from the hog doggin boards that don't show the hunters to show some of what we describe as "russian lookin" hogs. They are in population pockets I admit.

As for sensationalized, I feel the big foot shows are sensationalized. This one was well put together and contained mostly written fact with a little possible opinion.
But the bomb part is blatantly true as I know of areas in many of the states in the south that have updated their feral hog population maps and from the looks of it the printer ink consumption must have impacted their state budget.
Brent
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Old April 1, 2009, 10:31 PM   #33
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Hogdog;I have neither the knowledge or the in depth field experence about hogs but I have first hand witness to how rapidly hogs can revert to a less than domesticated state.
About 6 years ago a large hog confinement operation was hit by a tornado and many of the bred sows were released many survived and produced litters, this was in an area about 60 miles from my location.This past fall during deer season in the county north of the one I live in (Clayton) We were hunting an area on a ridge above the Mississippi river.We flushed a hog a boar as it had no visible tits,we able to observe it for over a minute.
From a distance of 35 yards this is what I saw.An animal of about 300 to350 lbs it had a distinct humped front shoulder it was hairy and was almost completely black except for a lighter strip running from just behind the ears to its tail(brownish red) it had a much longer snout than a Hamp or Duroc
I don't have any idea how long it takes a hog to lose it perferred domestic shape nor do I know if there is any Eurasian blood in the animal I saw.All I know is the members of my hunting party agreed that what we saw was a wild(Feral) Boar.I would like to see apicture of those dogs you were discussing Good luck and good hunting ELMOUSMC
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Old April 1, 2009, 10:50 PM   #34
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http://images.google.com/images?q=do...num=1&ct=title
The dogo argentina?
Yes the feral domestics do lose their farmed shape rapidly...

Not russian...

Again, not a russian...

This may have a bit more russian influence. I am having trouble finding images of hogs that show more russian influence as many are poor quality or have the hunters in the pic and I don't have their permission to rip and re-post them and I need time to get my puter savvy daughter to edit out faces...
Brent
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Old April 1, 2009, 11:07 PM   #35
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Hogdog:yes the Dogo argentina,The second picture of the hog on the UTV looks very much like the animal we saw ELMOUSMC
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Old April 1, 2009, 11:19 PM   #36
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The top link of images has plenty of good shots of the dogo.
The one on the ute is very typical of what we get on around me. Some of the pure black traits are from the spanish hogs originally placed by spanish explorers from about the N. Carolina coast all the way around to Mexico and on down... Much of their offspring has later made way into the domesticated stock either accidentally or through intentional re-domestication and subsequent cross breeding.
It is fully legal (not so ethical) for me to pen a live captured feral hog, cut the teeth, dock the tails and have them inoculated and run thru the sale barn in many places... I wouldn't do this with them but I would run 3rd generation pigs as domestic. They will revert back to short snouts and legs as fast once re-captured as when gone feral... adaptive critters!
Brent
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Old April 2, 2009, 07:47 AM   #37
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Thanks for those links shorthair. Now that I'm layed off I'll be cruising the woods and backroads a lot more on my horse. Saw some around here 2 and 3 years ago, and fresh sign up till fall '97. Nothing since then. I would travel a ways if there was a good likelyhood of "providing a service" to my state.

Selfish treg would like to see more of them around but common sense says not.

P.S. A valid Michigan hunting licence is required to shoot wild hog here in MI.
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Old April 2, 2009, 08:22 AM   #38
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Sure thing Treg. I'm laid off too.... Michigan sucks.
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Old April 2, 2009, 09:10 AM   #39
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I'm no hog expert, but for over sixty years I've read commentary about how quickly hogs revert in the wild. It seems to take but merely three or four generations to go from pen-hog to razorback.

I've been reading "Let's go hunting!" ads for about the same length of time in such as "Field & Stream" magazine. All through the Smoky Mountain country, hog hunting for boars with Russian strain was advertised.

I know as fact that the Russians have been introduced into Texas, at one time or another. Rich folks' hunting pleasure. But, sheep&goat fence isn't gonna keep a big hog in a pasture...

About the only place I know of a "natural" die-off was a few miles north of my house on the 3-Bars Ranch. How? Simple: Cougars and coyotes ate the little ones.
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Old April 27, 2009, 03:59 PM   #40
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Does anyone know where you can hunt hogs for free?
If you want to pay it's easy to find a place but I thought it was a huge problem and people wanted them killed.
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Old April 27, 2009, 05:03 PM   #41
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I hunt them for free here. I invite folks to join me. Dogs on hogs mainly but occasionally I can slip a gun hunt in. Rarely get lucky with guns though.

Brent
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Old April 27, 2009, 06:12 PM   #42
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as far as hogs go, let them come! i probably live in the only state left where you can still buy guns, ammo, and beer... all in one stop!... the only problem is you cant do anything with said supplies unless buying the right license at the allowed twice a year/ or once a "season" license in the second week of the sixth month of the year...unless it is a leap year in which the rules change and you have to recalculate the approximate dates at which you want hunt such animal... that being said ,,, oh wait was i talking about pigs? or was it birds, deer, small game, fox, wolfs, bears, cougars, elk, ram?... maybe it was fishing..never mind, i lost my train of thought
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Old April 27, 2009, 08:13 PM   #43
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Deleted by poster. This was covered above. Hybrid tooth.
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Old April 27, 2009, 08:24 PM   #44
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Yes the feral domestics do lose their farmed shape rapidly...

Yes they do. A first generation feral hog will undergo some changes is a fairly short period of time. First the tail goes straight, then the butt becomes more narrow.

Killed these three hogs one evening as few weeks ago. None had the hybrid tooth.
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Old May 28, 2009, 06:05 PM   #45
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We also have the "hybrid tooth"...
http://www.hunting-in-texas.com/learnhogs.htm
This has been bothering me for a while now, this "hydrid tooth." Mentioned elsewhere as the Euro tooth and claimed to be diagnostic of a feral hog/Russian boar cross. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=319207

So far, the only references that I can find to support the claim that this is indicative of a Russian boar/feral hog mix is the site cited above. The other sites that mention this that I have found all refer to this one site or at least to the same set of images. For example...
http://www.hunting-in-texas.com/learnhogs.htm
http://www.texasboars.com/articles/aging.html

I am sorry. I have seen this before and I have to laugh. That is a vestigial LPM1 (lower first premolar, adult tooth)!!!!

I have yet to see anything in my veterinary or osteology texts that support that crossing feral hogs and Russian boars produces this vestigial tooth, especially when it is a tooth that shows up in domestic hogs!!!!!!

http://www.d91.k12.id.us/skyline/tea...bertsd/pig.htm
http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Pig/pigdom.htm

In fact, that tooth shows up as part of the dental formula for hogs which is

3 1 4 3
______
3 1 4 3

The formula means you have 3 upper incisors, 1 canine, 4 premolars, and 3 molars on each side (left and right) and the same pattern down below on the mandible.

Why is it a vestigial? It is something of a remnant tooth. Many other artiodactyls have all but totally lost the tooth, but it still shows up in regularly in Suidae (pig family). Rarely, you will find a white-tailed deer with one or two vestigial LPM1s as something of a throwback.

Do the vestigial LPM1s always show up in domestic pigs? Nope. They are vestigial. Sometimes they are not there or when they are there they are smaller than their other PM counterparts, less well formed. They are a tooth being evolutionarily lost, but not gone yet by any stretch.

As they are located in the diastema (space or gap) between the canine and the fully formed cheek teeth and are smaller in size, they do tend to get broken off and the gums will heal over the roots such that they may appear to have never been present when they were.

I really have to wonder how it is that folks come up with this stuff and pass it off as being some sort of diagnostic fact.

Go look up pictures of domestic pigs on the internet and teeth like I showed you above and you will see that non-feral domestic pigs have this tooth with remarkable regularity.

Note, there is no real biological stage of being "feral." The authors are treating "feral" as a biological entity that doesn't exist as an entity. So to say that the tooth is diagnostic of a cross between a feral hog and a Russian boar is garbage. Secondly, there is no information other than that one set of pictures on the internet that seems to support the claim. Third, with the tooth showing up in non-feral domestic pigs, it can't be claimed as diagnostic of a feral hog/Russian boar mix to produce a hybrid.
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Old May 28, 2009, 06:17 PM   #46
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I am under the impression (limited factual backing on the net) that the tooth does not appear in true russian/euro wild stock. Just in feral or feral/euro crossbreds... Not an indicator of feral versus domestic as feral are domestic hogs in the wild.
Feral hogs are not russian hogs. Russian hogs are "wild hogs". That is how I see it anyway. I have trapped and dogged several hundred head of swine of all ages and size and never seen one with out that tooth. I also have never gotten a hog that has only the traits of true russian hogs.
Brent
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Old May 29, 2009, 08:47 AM   #47
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Quote:
I have trapped and dogged several hundred head of swine of all ages and size and never seen one with out that tooth. I also have never gotten a hog that has only the traits of true russian hogs.

I have killed at least 8 hogs here and in Austria that were pruebred Russian/German boars. None of those that I examined had that tooth. This one was killed in OK. This was a very old boar when he was killed in 07. His teeth were ground down to the gums. He had a small brass tag in his ear from a game preserve in Germany.
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Old May 29, 2009, 12:17 PM   #48
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I am under the impression (limited factual backing on the net) that the tooth does not appear in true russian/euro wild stock.
Okay, prove it. You have passed off the information as fact, but the closest thing you have to a source has no documentation. Your impressions are well intended, but not backed up scientifically.

Quote:
Just in feral or feral/euro crossbreds... Not an indicator of feral versus domestic as feral are domestic hogs in the wild.
Feral hogs are not russian hogs. Russian hogs are "wild hogs". That is how I see it anyway. I have trapped and dogged several hundred head of swine of all ages and size and never seen one with out that tooth. I also have never gotten a hog that has only the traits of true russian hogs.
Brent
And by "only traits of true russian hogs" you include this alleged Euro-tooth absence. This is a "fact" not in evidence. You see, the reason the tooth is always there is because it is not absent from Russian or European wild hogs. It is present.
http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Pig/wboar.htm This wild pig has them.

So OF COURSE it is present in the bazillions of hogs you have killed.

If it is present in a European wild hog and present in domesticates and ferals, then it would show up in hybrids between the two, and does. If you have a pure blood, the tooth will be there. If you have a domestic pig. The tooth will be there. If you have a feral pig. The tooth will be there.

So to use the tooth presence of absence as a diagnostic trait of being a hybrid is BOGUS.
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Old May 29, 2009, 12:31 PM   #49
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I have killed at least 8 hogs here and in Austria that were pruebred Russian/German boars. None of those that I examined had that tooth. This one was killed in OK. This was a very old boar when he was killed in 07. His teeth were ground down to the gums. He had a small brass tag in his ear from a game preserve in Germany.
Now, did they not have the tooth or had it been present and broken away earlier in life? Did you skeletonize the mandible and check for the presence of the alveolus?

Do you have any photographs? Were you actually looking for this trait? Did you also take notice of any of the cusp variations on the molars as well?

How did you diagnose that these were "purebred"? If you based the statement on phenotypes, then you would have a problem. You are making a claim of absoluteness that you can't substantiate.

If this tooth presence/absence is diagnostic as claimed, none of the actual biologists seem to know this.

As for your German boar from OK, with the teeth ground down to the gums, you are going to be hard pressed to prove the tooth wasn't there without skeletonizing it.

Interestingly, Vietnamese potbelly pigs seem to be missing the LPM1...
http://www.americanheadhunters.com/j...belliedpig.jpg
http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Pig/vietpig_lat.jpg
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011

Last edited by Double Naught Spy; May 29, 2009 at 01:07 PM.
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Old May 29, 2009, 01:32 PM   #50
STEINER
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Join Date: September 24, 2008
Posts: 139
I have lived most of my life in big cities and have never seen a Hog, Sow, Swine, Pig, Boar, domestic or any other name for a pig outside of a fenced area.
I just want to say that this thread has been a real education for me. Facinating information. To me, it doesn't matter much if some things can't be proven. The general conversation is a good read. Thanks.
And now I am going to load up the "youtube" videos and enjoy.
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