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Old March 25, 2009, 05:31 PM   #1
jimpeel
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So now its “widespread civil violence”

It appears that Bernd Debusmann ( http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276020 ) is back; and this time he wonders whether the uptick in firearms sales is a precursor to civil unrest -- while leaving doubt as to exactly where he stands.

SOURCE

Quote:
March 19th, 2009

In American crisis, anger and guns

By: Bernd Debusmann

– Bernd Debusmann is a Reuters columnist. The opinions expressed are his own. —

In the first two months of this year, around 2.5 million Americans bought guns, a 26 percent increase over the same period in 2008. It was great news for gun makers and a sign of a dark mood in the country.

Gun sales shot up almost immediately after Barack Obama won the U.S. presidential elections on November 4 and firearm enthusiasts rushed to stores, fearing he would tighten gun controls despite campaign pledges to the contrary.

After the November spike, gun dealers say, a second motive has helped drive sales: fear of social unrest as the ailing economy pushes the newly destitute deeper into misery. Many of the newly poor come from the relentlessly rising ranks of the unemployed. In February alone, an average of 23,000 people a day lost their jobs.

...

“What is really remarkable about all this is that there hasn’t been social unrest,” remarked an executive with business interests in Latin American countries where riots and street demonstrations in response to economic squeezes are routine. “The conditions for it are all there.”

You can contact the author at Debusmann@Reuters.com.

[more]
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

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Last edited by jimpeel; March 27, 2009 at 12:49 AM.
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Old March 25, 2009, 06:14 PM   #2
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Quote:
despite campaign pledges to the contrary
I seem to remember him promising that he would increase gun control.
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Old March 25, 2009, 06:19 PM   #3
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Why should anyone care what he thinks one way or another? He's a journalist. The criteria for becoming a journalist is even less stringent than that required to become a garbageman.
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Old March 25, 2009, 06:20 PM   #4
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There are no statistics on how many guns are bought by people who think they need them to defend themselves against desperate fellow citizens
Nope they only track those who buy guns to defend themselves from the government
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Old March 25, 2009, 06:21 PM   #5
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Meh. Inane ramblings from the infirm mind of an AP columnist. Not even a reporter... a columnist.

I fail to see how this has anything to do with Law or Civil Rights. Shall we start linking the front page of the Brady Bunch every day, next?
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Old March 25, 2009, 06:25 PM   #6
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This is an interesting topic, but it's liable to get shut down pretty fast unless someone makes a connection to "law" and/or "civil rights"...
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Old March 25, 2009, 06:27 PM   #7
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This was an interesting article though I wonder about copyright issues in its posting here. My take is that the reason for the rising rate of guy purchases comes for the same reason that precious metals sales have shot through the roof and exchange traded funds like GLD and SLV have had such solid growth. People are looking to invest in something which will be worth more next year than it is this year.

Concerning joblessness, all across the south people have been losing jobs for nearly 30 years in large part because the government has given tax preference to companies which move their production overseas. This is just another downturn in a long series and it won't stop until that inequity is abolished. They could do a lot more to reduce taxes on domestic production.
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Old March 25, 2009, 06:34 PM   #8
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The writer of that piece of pap needs to get another occupation.
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Old March 25, 2009, 06:42 PM   #9
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The article was given full attribution with an accompanying link. This satisfies Fair Use. The use was also not of a commercial nature and was for educational purposes.

By trying to link firearms to a possible usage of same for domestic unrest, or the use of same against domestic unrest, is the issue.

Yes, the Constitution and Bill of Rights were written with an eye towards the possible use of firearms against a tyrannical government. The article calls to question as to whether that time is nigh.

The first part of the article touts the widespread purchasing phenomenon after Obama's election; and the second part attempts to tie the widespread anger over the current policies to that phenomenon.

The end game is clear as the writer obviously believes that there are too many firearms out there -- with more being purchased every day. This flies in the face of his previous rant to the contrary (LINK).

As these types of "observations" and calls for tighter controls increase, it surely will have an effect on our civil rights. I didn't think it would be necessary to point that out when I posted the thread.
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
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Old March 25, 2009, 07:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
“What is really remarkable about all this is that there hasn’t been social unrest,” remarked an executive with business interests in Latin American countries where riots and street demonstrations in response to economic squeezes are routine. “The conditions for it are all there
Thats 'cuz everyone has guns

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Old March 25, 2009, 08:11 PM   #11
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Quote:
....firearms to a possible usage of same for domestic unrest, or the use of same against domestic unrest, is the issue.
very good, valid, question. I know many people who expect race wars, socialism, and civil war to happen in the near future.

These are the people who are buying FOR civil unrest. They are not planning on starting it, but they won't be left behind either.

Don't kid yourself, the increase, at least partially is because of people preparing FOR civil unrest....
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Old March 25, 2009, 10:20 PM   #12
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While I see the connection Jim, I doubt it can remain on topic.

We'll see......
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Old March 25, 2009, 10:40 PM   #13
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Quote:
My take is that the reason for the rising rate of guy purchases comes for the same reason that precious metals sales have shot through the roof and exchange traded funds like GLD and SLV have had such solid growth. People are looking to invest in something which will be worth more next year than it is this year.
Bingo. Investment income is going into guns, not the market

I got guys coming in making multi thousand dollar cash deals for guns, and these arent end of the world types. These guys are savvy buyers.

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Old March 26, 2009, 12:46 AM   #14
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Quote:
I got guys coming in making multi thousand dollar cash deals for guns, and these arent end of the world types. These guys are savvy buyers.
Engaging in the business of dealing firearms without an FFL.

I'm waiting for F-troop to start chasing down gun speculators at some point here. The time is ripe for it.

AZRedhawknoknockorcostlycourtbattle44

PS: I still fail to see how a whiney statist lib op-ed article has relevance to Law and Civil Rights. This article makes a very tenuous attempt to link disappearance of investment capital to the increase in firearms sales, then layers a healthy smearing of guilt-sauce on top to aid the indegestion. Doesn't propose any new laws or regulations.

We can sit here and BS or theorize this exact same topic with the same amount of validity as this article has, and it will get locked in the General Discussion forum.

Since when does TFL consider an op-ed piece with no concrete cited references to have greater credence than that of the musings of its own user base?

After all, this article is a thinly veiled "I'm getting a gun for SHTF" type of rant.
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Old March 26, 2009, 05:44 AM   #15
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The article doesn't strike me as particularily anti-gun.
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Old March 26, 2009, 05:46 AM   #16
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Recycled crap.

I remember people worrying about this during the 1970s and early 1980s when the economy was so bad and we were actually having gas shortages.

It didn't come true then, and it's not going to come true now.

Just another attempt by those who hate/fear guns to get their digs in. Repeat the lie often enough, and someone will begin to believe it even when there's no evidence to support it.
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Old March 26, 2009, 10:15 AM   #17
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While this may not contribute to L and CR - I would think a upswing in sales of horse drawn carts and guillotines might predict the oncoming revolution against the AIG and related royalty class. Demonstrations have occurred outside gated communities and death threats have been received by CEOs.

Time to see if the women can knit kevlar as they watch the Terror.
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Old March 26, 2009, 10:44 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
Time to see if the women can knit kevlar as they watch the Terror.
Hah! You think we'll be watching??

And doesn't it, anyway, take a manly man to knit Kevlar?

And just to get in before the lock... I do see a connection between this thread and some of the concerns raised in the "Army in Alabama" thread. The column in the OP is exactly the kind of fear-mongering which can be used very effectively to scare people into accepting the notion that only the military can protect them from the coming "violent civil disorders," so it would be a good idea to get them onto the streets now.

There's yer blinkin' connection to civil rights...
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Old March 26, 2009, 11:52 AM   #19
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Quote:
And doesn't it, anyway, take a manly man to knit Kevlar?
This is OT, but a long while ago, I designed the controls for a machine that was part of a factory that wove Kevlar into fabric. It was a pretty cool factory.

As for the article, just more nonsense from clueless "journalists". There will be riots here and there, as there have been for as long as there has been a USA. No general widespread breakdown in law and order is likely, short of some cataclysmic event.
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Old March 26, 2009, 02:20 PM   #20
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this thread is on topic and does apply to civil rights

this thread is on topic and does apply to civil rights because today on the news Hilliry Clinton who is the new secretary of state said us Americans were responsible for all the problems in mexico recently. She said we are suppying the guns and buying their drugs.We all know its only a matter of time before legislation is proposed to permanently ban assualt rifle sales to protect our great law abiding neighbors to the south!But I guess when the new legislation is passed it will be on topic and we can start a new thread on it that doesnt get closed.These journalists also see a real opportunity to help the current govt disarm us.U know 50 yrs ago hillary would have been hammered by the press for the statements she made today.
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Old March 26, 2009, 02:47 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiberius10721
this thread is on topic and does apply to civil rights because today on the news Hilliry Clinton who is the new secretary of state said us Americans were responsible for all the problems in mexico recently. She said we are suppying the guns and buying their drugs.We all know its only a matter of time before legislation is proposed to permanently ban assualt rifle sales to protect our great law abiding neighbors to the south!But I guess when the new legislation is passed it will be on topic and we can start a new thread on it that doesnt get closed.These journalists also see a real opportunity to help the current govt disarm us.U know 50 yrs ago hillary would have been hammered by the press for the statements she made today.
Tiberius, I'm a bit confused. Are you able to clarify how any of this relates to the column quoted in the OP, which is about anger over the economic crisis, and possible violent civil unrest?
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Old March 26, 2009, 03:10 PM   #22
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Quote:
The article was given full attribution with an accompanying link. This satisfies Fair Use. The use was also not of a commercial nature and was for educational purposes.
This posting is a clear violation of the copyrights of the publisher, Reuters, who is a commercial enterprise. (Actually makes no difference, only the government is prohibiting from copyrighting) Re-publishing an entire article, attribution or not, does not constitute fair use. A couple of quotes comprising a sentence or two is fair use.

I would suggest that the web masters remove the text of the article and leave the link to avoid problems.

BTW, I am one of those lower-than-scum journalists who earns, or tries to earn, my living writing, just so you know.
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Old March 27, 2009, 12:47 AM   #23
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This posting is a clear violation of the copyrights of the publisher, Reuters, who is a commercial enterprise.

...

BTW, I am one of those lower-than-scum journalists who earns, or tries to earn, my living writing, just so you know.
Fine. Go read this and I'll edit the thread header into something indistinguishable from what it started out to be.

http://www.publaw.com/fairuse.html

The posting meets Fair Use guidelines as they exist; but as the article clearly points out the courts have never issued a dead-bang-cut-n-dried ruling on just exactly what constitutes consistent Fair Use doctrine.

Like Antipitas said, this thread will go off the cliff; and the edge is now at our feet.
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
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Old March 27, 2009, 01:03 AM   #24
gretske
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Jim Peel

While there is no set standard for how much of an article can be quoted without the copyright holder's permission, there is no way that posting ALL of it can be considered fair use. Here is what the U.S. Copyright Office has to say. You can't consider this forum as "educational," when it a commercial venture of S.W.A.T. Magazine, not a school.

The point is, why not just post the link and avoid the problem altogether? That would not diminish the discussion one iota, and it would be respectful of the copyright owner's rights.
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Old March 27, 2009, 01:11 AM   #25
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Anyway, back on topic, those who state that this is just some hack commentator need to remember that it was just this type of commentator that gave us the president we now have --- and his agendas and policies.

A willing press was in the tank for Obama from day one and they are still in the tank for his policies -- including firearms controls. They will not back off because someone calls them some kinda hack.

To disregard this article is to give it legitimization; because the anti firearms agendists are reading it also and they are taking it far more literally. How many other articles are going to be deemed "not worth considering" because they are written by the wrong people or those deemed not worthy of note? How many on the other side are considering such articles "worthy" and stand ready to act upon same?

The article tries to connect firearms and public dissension over current economic conditions; and it suggests that it is incredible that the people have not yet taken to the streets as they do in other countries when there is economic strife.

Basically, this article is the flip side -- the liberal mythology side -- of the patriot mythology coin. The patriot mythology side says "The government is coming!"; and the liberal mythology side says "The people are coming!"

One says we need more firearms; and the other says we need less firearms.

All depends where you are standing when the coin lands.
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
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