Bought a Glock Privately Today: Legal Concerns

Piggy · February 12, 2000, 09:40 PM

Hey folks, I just bought a M22 from a guy who advertised in the paper here in south TX. I have always purchased guns through dealers so I wasn't sure what to expect. I gave him $480 for the gun and he said,"the gun's yours". No receipt, no nothing. Then I saw on the side of the box that the Glock said "Law enforcement sales" right beside the serial number but the guy I bought it from was definitely no cop. So I phoned the local cop shop and had them run the serial number and it came up clean. SHould I still worry? I have no receipt from this guy and what if he reports it stolen? Yes I have his address and phone number as well as a copy of the ad he took out in the paper, but I still think I did a very idiotic thing by leaving his place with no receipt. Any thoughts, comments appreciated. By the way, in TX you are not required to fill out any forms to transfer ownership of a firearm and the police commander told me the seller is not required by law to give me a receipt.

killer45auto · February 12, 2000, 09:44 PM

was that for a new or used one?

Piggy · February 12, 2000, 10:42 PM

The gun had 32 rounds shot through it and it came with one 15 round factory mag and a cheap POS USA mag preban (I tried loading it to 14 rounds and the base popped out and out shot the spring!). It is in immaculate condition, no finish wear or anything. The top of the barrel is still black with no silver circular markings. The local shop owner said he could get me a new M22 for $500 plus tax, but with 10 rnd mags. I have been keeping my eyes open for a good deal on a M22 or M23 at the gunshows and in the paper and this was by far the best deal I've found. Most of the local shops are selling the M22 for around $700!!!Anyway, I'm very happy with the gun but I'm a little wary of used guns because it is hard to tell if they are "clean".

LOCHFAL · February 12, 2000, 10:45 PM

You should be fine. You have the ad and the guys address to keep around in case. These arent going to be considered legal documents but will make it harder for the guy to say you stole it. Even if the gun itself was sold to law enforcement you can still have it yourself. Just make sure the mags that came with it arent marked for law enforcement only. If they are you will need to get rid of them and replace them with pre ban hicaps or ten rounders to stay out of jail.

John Hollister · February 13, 2000, 03:42 AM

Don't sweat it. As long as you followed all the local laws on the transfer of a pistol, your fine. Florida, I guess like Texas, does not require any paperwork or checks for private transfers.

Basically, Glock sells "Civilian" pistols and "Law Enforcement" pistols. Civilian and Law Enforcement pistols are exactly the same.

The only markings to indicate which a pistol is in 95% of cases are the boxes. The other 5% have engraving on the slide or frame, or they have special serial numbers.

Civilian (white label) pistols all come with two magazines, now 10 rounders.

Law Enforcement (blue label) pistols come with two or three magazines. The sub-compacts come with two standard capacity mags. Compact and large framed Glocks come with three high capacity restricted magazines.

Finding an LE marked box is not unusual, thousands are on the used market. All but one of my current Glocks are LE marked.

Hope this helps

John Hollister
Glock Moderator GunSpot.com

Ariel 1 · February 13, 2000, 11:47 AM

John,

Correct me if I am wrong but aren't private handgun transfers illegal in Florida. I think this las has been with us since January 99 ?

Many thanks

Ariel

Joseph · February 13, 2000, 01:32 PM

FWIW, private handgun transfers are illegal in North Carolina without a permit issued by the county sheriff.

dvc · February 13, 2000, 01:33 PM

When buying or selling a firearm privately, it is always best to type up a little "document of sale" document prior to buying or selling.

Something along the lines of:

"This document certifies that the following firearm, Glock Model 22, serial #XXXXX, was purchased from, Joe Seller, DL #XXXXXX on 2/12/2000 for the sum of $XXX.XX"

And both of you sign it.

Keep it in your safety deposit box for future reference...

If the seller or buyer refuses to sign, or give you his drivers license number(or social security number) then you know automatically that something is "up"...

[This message has been edited by dvc (edited February 13, 2000).]

TBeck · February 13, 2000, 05:44 PM

Private transfers are not illegal in Florida unless you knowingly sell to a felon or a minor. The 1999 law you are referring to gives counties discretion as to whether they want to require background checks on private sales at gun shows. Some counties do and some don't. Orange does, Osceola doesn't. If the county passes the law it only applies to public venues such as gun shows or flea markets. Even then, only the background check is required, the three day wait does not apply. Again, this only applies to private sales in public venues where that county has passed the ordinance requiring the background check.

6forsure · February 13, 2000, 05:53 PM

DVC,

I would never sell or buy anything under those requirements (I've done both), and I'm not a criminal. If I want a paper trail, I will do it the old fashioned way. Buy or sell through an FFL.

[This message has been edited by 6forsure (edited February 13, 2000).]

rock_jock · February 13, 2000, 06:00 PM

Piggy,

I recently sold a shotgun here in SE Texas. I asked the guy for a copy of his driver's license, which he gave me, and I gave him a handwritten copy of a receipt. My thinking was, what if the shotgun was ever used in the commission of a crime, and it was traced to me since I bought it new. Anyway, I personally would not feel comfortable selling a handgun to anyone out of my house. I know this is a second amendment issue, but I would feel terrible if I sold a handgun to a nice gentleman and he happened to be a felon who went and used it in a crime. I know that the same could be said of the shotgun I sold, but there is a little bit of a distinction as a shotgun is not typically used in crimes, and the guy showed up with his wife. BTW, I did sell a used Tanfoglio 9MM, but to a gunshop. I probably lost about $50 on the sale, but it was worth it to me.

John Hollister · February 13, 2000, 10:32 PM

TBeck

Thanks for repling. You are correct sir.

I live in Brevard County, no such requirements.

John Hollister

HiCap · February 14, 2000, 11:22 AM

www.dnrsports.com has G22s for $423 and ~$15 shipping to your FFL, if you locate an FFL in your area who charges a flat fee (usually $20), eiter inform oyur dealer and have them order it or get a signed copy of their FFL, send it to D&R Sports, order and pay for the gun by CC or MO and they'll ship it to your FFL. You can save a few bucks that way.

jimmy · February 14, 2000, 12:53 PM

I also have a G22 whose box has a blue LE label, although this particular label says "no magazines." I bought the gun from an FFL who got it from one of his regular wholesalers, so the transactions were on the up-and-up all the way down the line, as near as I can tell. (BTW, the dealer was going to return it to the wholesaler because it had no mags. But I went ahead and bought it, because I had some G22 mags, but no G22!)

Anyway, the point is that the LE label is not in itself something to be concerned about.

jtduncan · February 14, 2000, 03:43 PM

If you're concerned, register the sale with some of the ATF forms with a friendly dealer but I think you'll need the seller's signature.

Notify the state LE agency that tracks firearms and you should be fine!

------------------
The Seattle SharpShooter

Ariel 1 · February 14, 2000, 06:34 PM

I stand corrected. I was under the impression that it was a Florida thong. I live in Dade County and was told by a few dealers at the gunshow that I could not sell a handgun anymore unless thru a dealer. Thanks for the info T Beck.

Ariel

John Hollister · February 15, 2000, 03:51 AM

Ariel 1

I've seen plenty of "Florida Thongs" and this is not one.

John Hollister
(Fellow Florida Guy)

February 12, 2000, 09:40 PM	#1
Piggy Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 1999 Location: Corpus Christi Tx, USA Posts: 141	Hey folks, I just bought a M22 from a guy who advertised in the paper here in south TX. I have always purchased guns through dealers so I wasn't sure what to expect. I gave him $480 for the gun and he said,"the gun's yours". No receipt, no nothing. Then I saw on the side of the box that the Glock said "Law enforcement sales" right beside the serial number but the guy I bought it from was definitely no cop. So I phoned the local cop shop and had them run the serial number and it came up clean. SHould I still worry? I have no receipt from this guy and what if he reports it stolen? Yes I have his address and phone number as well as a copy of the ad he took out in the paper, but I still think I did a very idiotic thing by leaving his place with no receipt. Any thoughts, comments appreciated. By the way, in TX you are not required to fill out any forms to transfer ownership of a firearm and the police commander told me the seller is not required by law to give me a receipt.

February 12, 2000, 09:44 PM	#2
killer45auto Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2000 Posts: 173	was that for a new or used one?

February 12, 2000, 10:42 PM	#3
Piggy Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 1999 Location: Corpus Christi Tx, USA Posts: 141	The gun had 32 rounds shot through it and it came with one 15 round factory mag and a cheap POS USA mag preban (I tried loading it to 14 rounds and the base popped out and out shot the spring!). It is in immaculate condition, no finish wear or anything. The top of the barrel is still black with no silver circular markings. The local shop owner said he could get me a new M22 for $500 plus tax, but with 10 rnd mags. I have been keeping my eyes open for a good deal on a M22 or M23 at the gunshows and in the paper and this was by far the best deal I've found. Most of the local shops are selling the M22 for around $700!!!Anyway, I'm very happy with the gun but I'm a little wary of used guns because it is hard to tell if they are "clean".

February 12, 2000, 10:45 PM	#4
LOCHFAL Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Posts: 211	You should be fine. You have the ad and the guys address to keep around in case. These arent going to be considered legal documents but will make it harder for the guy to say you stole it. Even if the gun itself was sold to law enforcement you can still have it yourself. Just make sure the mags that came with it arent marked for law enforcement only. If they are you will need to get rid of them and replace them with pre ban hicaps or ten rounders to stay out of jail.

February 13, 2000, 03:42 AM	#5
John Hollister Member Join Date: April 5, 1999 Location: Florida Posts: 37	Don't sweat it. As long as you followed all the local laws on the transfer of a pistol, your fine. Florida, I guess like Texas, does not require any paperwork or checks for private transfers. Basically, Glock sells "Civilian" pistols and "Law Enforcement" pistols. Civilian and Law Enforcement pistols are exactly the same. The only markings to indicate which a pistol is in 95% of cases are the boxes. The other 5% have engraving on the slide or frame, or they have special serial numbers. Civilian (white label) pistols all come with two magazines, now 10 rounders. Law Enforcement (blue label) pistols come with two or three magazines. The sub-compacts come with two standard capacity mags. Compact and large framed Glocks come with three high capacity restricted magazines. Finding an LE marked box is not unusual, thousands are on the used market. All but one of my current Glocks are LE marked. Hope this helps John Hollister Glock Moderator GunSpot.com

February 13, 2000, 11:47 AM	#6
Ariel 1 Member Join Date: November 18, 1999 Location: Miami,FL Posts: 56	John, Correct me if I am wrong but aren't private handgun transfers illegal in Florida. I think this las has been with us since January 99 ? Many thanks Ariel

February 13, 2000, 01:32 PM	#7
Joseph Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 1999 Location: Cornelius, NC Posts: 695	FWIW, private handgun transfers are illegal in North Carolina without a permit issued by the county sheriff.

February 13, 2000, 01:33 PM	#8
dvc Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 1999 Posts: 382	When buying or selling a firearm privately, it is always best to type up a little "document of sale" document prior to buying or selling. Something along the lines of: "This document certifies that the following firearm, Glock Model 22, serial #XXXXX, was purchased from, Joe Seller, DL #XXXXXX on 2/12/2000 for the sum of $XXX.XX" And both of you sign it. Keep it in your safety deposit box for future reference... If the seller or buyer refuses to sign, or give you his drivers license number(or social security number) then you know automatically that something is "up"... [This message has been edited by dvc (edited February 13, 2000).]

February 13, 2000, 05:44 PM	#9
TBeck Senior Member Join Date: September 24, 1999 Posts: 248	Private transfers are not illegal in Florida unless you knowingly sell to a felon or a minor. The 1999 law you are referring to gives counties discretion as to whether they want to require background checks on private sales at gun shows. Some counties do and some don't. Orange does, Osceola doesn't. If the county passes the law it only applies to public venues such as gun shows or flea markets. Even then, only the background check is required, the three day wait does not apply. Again, this only applies to private sales in public venues where that county has passed the ordinance requiring the background check.

February 13, 2000, 05:53 PM	#10
6forsure Junior member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Posts: 216	DVC, I would never sell or buy anything under those requirements (I've done both), and I'm not a criminal. If I want a paper trail, I will do it the old fashioned way. Buy or sell through an FFL. [This message has been edited by 6forsure (edited February 13, 2000).]

February 13, 2000, 06:00 PM	#11
rock_jock Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2000 Location: SE Texas Posts: 1,781	Piggy, I recently sold a shotgun here in SE Texas. I asked the guy for a copy of his driver's license, which he gave me, and I gave him a handwritten copy of a receipt. My thinking was, what if the shotgun was ever used in the commission of a crime, and it was traced to me since I bought it new. Anyway, I personally would not feel comfortable selling a handgun to anyone out of my house. I know this is a second amendment issue, but I would feel terrible if I sold a handgun to a nice gentleman and he happened to be a felon who went and used it in a crime. I know that the same could be said of the shotgun I sold, but there is a little bit of a distinction as a shotgun is not typically used in crimes, and the guy showed up with his wife. BTW, I did sell a used Tanfoglio 9MM, but to a gunshop. I probably lost about $50 on the sale, but it was worth it to me.

February 13, 2000, 10:32 PM	#12
John Hollister Member Join Date: April 5, 1999 Location: Florida Posts: 37	TBeck Thanks for repling. You are correct sir. I live in Brevard County, no such requirements. John Hollister

February 14, 2000, 11:22 AM	#13
HiCap Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 1999 Posts: 107	www.dnrsports.com has G22s for $423 and ~$15 shipping to your FFL, if you locate an FFL in your area who charges a flat fee (usually $20), eiter inform oyur dealer and have them order it or get a signed copy of their FFL, send it to D&R Sports, order and pay for the gun by CC or MO and they'll ship it to your FFL. You can save a few bucks that way.

February 14, 2000, 12:53 PM	#14
jimmy Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 1999 Location: Texas Posts: 1,795	I also have a G22 whose box has a blue LE label, although this particular label says "no magazines." I bought the gun from an FFL who got it from one of his regular wholesalers, so the transactions were on the up-and-up all the way down the line, as near as I can tell. (BTW, the dealer was going to return it to the wholesaler because it had no mags. But I went ahead and bought it, because I had some G22 mags, but no G22!) Anyway, the point is that the LE label is not in itself something to be concerned about.

February 14, 2000, 03:43 PM	#15
jtduncan Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 1999 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA Posts: 1,681	If you're concerned, register the sale with some of the ATF forms with a friendly dealer but I think you'll need the seller's signature. Notify the state LE agency that tracks firearms and you should be fine! ------------------ *The Seattle SharpShooter*

February 14, 2000, 06:34 PM	#16
Ariel 1 Member Join Date: November 18, 1999 Location: Miami,FL Posts: 56	I stand corrected. I was under the impression that it was a Florida thong. I live in Dade County and was told by a few dealers at the gunshow that I could not sell a handgun anymore unless thru a dealer. Thanks for the info T Beck. Ariel

February 15, 2000, 03:51 AM	#17
John Hollister Member Join Date: April 5, 1999 Location: Florida Posts: 37	Ariel 1 I've seen plenty of "Florida Thongs" and this is not one. John Hollister (Fellow Florida Guy)