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Old March 19, 2009, 01:02 PM   #1
tiberius10721
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legal question about bp firearems

Just curious to know if a california resident has a restriction to own firearms can he or she still own a black powder firearm.It would seem to me since there is no background check on a black powder firearm to prevent its purchase that it would be legal to have.Please let me know if my reasoning is flawed or not?
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Old March 19, 2009, 01:23 PM   #2
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As far as I have read/heard I dont think any black powder guns count as a firearm. Good questuin tho

I wouldnt go threading the barrel and screwing on a silencer or anything to rock the boat but I suspect it shouldnt be a problem to own a bp....

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Old March 19, 2009, 01:31 PM   #3
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Check your local laws. The BATFE doesn't classify bp guns as guns but some local laws do.
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Old March 19, 2009, 01:34 PM   #4
tiberius10721
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from the research ive done the feds dont require them to be a firearm.I do not know what the republic of kalifornia says,but i am trying to find out.
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Old March 19, 2009, 01:46 PM   #5
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You need to do your own research, but I believe I read in some CA DOJ firearms document that they are considered firearms by the state of California. As such, if one is restricted from possessing firearms, that would include percussion, flintlock, you name it.
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Old March 20, 2009, 04:41 AM   #6
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California and NJ are very close to having the same insane laws. NJ they are a firearm,and treated as such :barf::barf:. check with the law in California
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Old March 20, 2009, 10:21 AM   #7
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From CA Penal Code 12001:
(e) For purposes of Sections 12070, 12071, and paragraph (8) of subdivision (a), and subdivisions (b), (c), (d), and (f) of Section 12072, the term "firearm" does not include an unloaded firearm that is defined as an "antique firearm" in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code.

18 USC 921 (a)(16):
(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

12070 and 12071 are "License to sell firearms", so it does NOT require an FFL to sell BP firearms in CA.
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Old March 20, 2009, 08:30 PM   #8
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If a convicted felon gets caught by the BATFE with blackpowder or a substitute that person is in serious trouble.
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Old March 21, 2009, 05:37 PM   #9
grymster2007
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Quote:
If a convicted felon gets caught by the BATFE with blackpowder or a substitute that person is in serious trouble.
That could well be what I read under CA law. Maybe, as applied to felons, BP are considered firearms.
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Old March 21, 2009, 05:41 PM   #10
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Try carrying one into a courthouse and you will be slamdunked before you can sneeze. BP guns are the Original Firearm before everyone had to have an Uzi or Ak
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Old March 21, 2009, 06:53 PM   #11
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Quote:
If a convicted felon gets caught by the BATFE with blackpowder or a substitute that person is in serious trouble.
Would you please post a citation to law or BATFE opinion that states this?
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Old March 22, 2009, 11:18 AM   #12
thallub
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Quote:
Would you please post a citation to law or BATFE opinion that states this

It matters not what state law says or does not say about felons in possession of ammunition and blackpowder guns. The BATFE calls blackpowder an explosive. Felons may not possess explosives. Felons may not possess ammunition. The feds will often go after felons who possess ammunition when no gun is found.

CITE:


Title 18, Section 922 (g) (1)


http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html

Quote:
g) It shall be unlawful for any person—
(1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) who is a fugitive from justice;
(3) who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien—
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26)));
(6) who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
(8) who is subject to a court order that—
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had an opportunity to participate;
(B) restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child; and
(C)
(i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=5655

http://boston.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pr...poss021009.htm


Appeals courts routinely uphold guilty verdicts from lower courts:

http://circuit10.blogspot.com/2009/0...ession-of.html


Google up: "felon in possession of ammunition"

Last edited by thallub; March 22, 2009 at 11:30 AM.
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Old March 22, 2009, 02:03 PM   #13
NavyLT
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Quote:
It matters not what state law says or does not say about felons in possession of ammunition and blackpowder guns. The BATFE calls blackpowder an explosive. Felons may not possess explosives. Felons may not possess ammunition. The feds will often go after felons who possess ammunition when no gun is found.
Sorry, but you are incorrect. BATFE specifically EXEMPTS black powder as explosives.

Quote:
§ 555.141 Exemptions.
(b) Black powder. Except for the provisions applicable to
persons required to be licensed under subpart D, this part does not
apply with respect to commercially manufactured black powder in
quantities not to exceed 50 pounds, percussion caps, safety and
pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction
primers, if the black powder is intended to be used solely for
sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms, as
defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or antique devices, as exempted
from the term “destructive devices” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4).
[T.D. ATF–87, 46 FR 40384, Aug. 7, 1981 as amended by T.D. ATF–87, 46 FR
46916, Sept. 23, 1981; T.D. ATF–293, 55 FR 3722, Feb. 5, 1990; T.D. ATF–387,
62 FR 8377, Feb. 25, 1997; T.D. ATF–400, 63 FR 45003, Aug. 24, 1998; ATF No.
1, 68 FR 13792, Mar. 20, 2003; ATF 6F, 71 FR 46101, Aug. 11, 2006]
Quote:
Subpart D — Licenses and Permits
§ 555.41 General.
(a) Licenses and permits issued prior to May 24, 2003.
(1) Each person intending to engage in business as an
importer or manufacturer of, or a dealer in, explosive materials,
including black powder, must, before commencing business,
obtain the license required by this subpart for the business to be
operated. Each person who intends to acquire for use explosive
materials from a licensee in a State other than the State in which
he resides, or from a foreign country, or who intends to transport
explosive materials in interstate or foreign commerce, must
obtain a permit under this subpart; except that it is not necessary
to obtain a permit if the user intends to lawfully purchase:

(i) Explosive materials from a licensee in a State
contiguous to the user’s State of residence and the user’s State of
residence has enacted legislation, currently in force, specifically
authorizing a resident of that State to purchase explosive materi-
als in a contiguous State; or
(ii) Commercially manufactured black powder in
quantities not to exceed 50 pounds, intended to be used solely for
sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms or
in antique devices.
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Old March 22, 2009, 02:23 PM   #14
thallub
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Quote:
Sorry, but you are incorrect. BATFE specifically EXEMPTS black powder as explosives.

Yes, for recreational purposes. However look at the current BATFE list of explosive materails at the link i posted. Black powder is on that list.


BTW: Felons are not allowed to possess any component of ammunition, not even bullets or cartridge cases.
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Old March 22, 2009, 09:54 PM   #15
NavyLT
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First of all this link you posted:

http://boston.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pr...poss021009.htm

Was in reference to a felon possessing 1000 .50 cal shell casings. That has nothing to do with black powder or black powder guns. Shell casings are a component of modern, centerfire ammunition.

Second, yes, black powder is on the list of explosives, however, as stated in Federal regulations, a quantity of less than 50 lbs used for sporting purposes is specifically NOT considered possession of an explosive. Use in a black powder rifle or pistol is a sporting purpose.
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Old March 22, 2009, 10:01 PM   #16
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This is from a rather dubious forum, but if you call the BATFE, I am sure you will get the same answer:
Quote:
I double checked and I'm right.
18 USC Section 922 defines it. I just got off the phone with the Acting Duty Agent/BATFE and verified it.
1. Muzzle-loader does not fall under the Gun Control Act of 1968 guidelines and is not considered a firearm. I asked him specifically "I am a felon. Can I own a muzzleloader?" And he replied yes. And muzzleloaders do not fall under National Firearms Act either.
2. A felon cannot possess ANY firearm. This includes inactive, deactiated and demilitarized firearms.
3. In essence if it does not accept and cannot accept cartridge ammunition it is not a firearm. Any muzzleloader than can be converted to accept cartridge ammunition are considered firearms. Typically because of the pressure differences muzzleloaders cannot accept cartridge ammunition because cartridge ammunition is a much higher pressure than blackpowder.
4. State laws may vary.
5. If you have any questions, feel free to call & ask- http://www.atf.treas.gov/contact/field.htm
This is interesting. In the state of Michigan, we had to throw all my sons plastic guns out. If a PO came in and found even a toy gun, including a water gun, he would go back to prison for 5 more years. It seems to me then that muzzleloaders would be included.

The question was asked "WHY TAKE THE RISK?" Most can't afford a high dollar attorney to fight a U.S. Code that doesn't even matter at the state level anyway.

Stacy
At the Federal level, muzzle loading firearms and black powder (<50lbs for sporting purposes) are no problem for a felon. He can walk into Bass Pro and buy one in a plastic wrapper off the shelf and purchase it at the regular cashier with his boots and hat.

Some states, however, will define the muzzleloader as a firearm and prohibit possession by a felon, so it depends upon state law.
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Old March 22, 2009, 10:15 PM   #17
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FWIW, Illinois considers BP to be a firearm. Likewise high velocity BB guns.
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Old March 23, 2009, 05:33 PM   #18
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http://www.titleii.com/BardwellOLD/us_v_green.txt
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Old March 23, 2009, 06:25 PM   #19
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So by your findings you can take a muzzleloader into a Federal Courthouse?
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